3rd Rail FP7 AB how to power the dummy

Is this new or used?  If used, are the traction tires in good and not slippery condition?

 

3rd Rail engines will run at nowhere that same speed as a Lionel or Atlas for the same speed settings.  Twin vertical motors are geared at about 10 to 1 whereas the 3rd Rail locomotives are about 20 to 1.

 

I think something else is wrong.  I watched this 3-rail locomotive pull 8 GGD aluminum cars with no problem. 

Based on long experience of 3rd Rail engines (although not this specific model) I have to agree that something else must be wrong. Occasionally a traction tire goes bad and has to be replaced and that seems like the obvious candidate for your problem. I had the same trouble with a Lionel Legacy E7 that otherwise would pull a dummy unit and 10 21" cars with no trouble. The tires just started to slip after a few weeks' use and the set had been in a box for a couple of years.  

 

The horizontal drive train in your model might be faulty but I think if that was the problem 3rd Rail would have diagnosed and fixed it themselves. I think that there has been another thread here about some 3rd Rail diesel drive train problems but those were more serious than lack of traction. Otherwise however in my experience their diesels have fine pulling power even at the very low speeds the horizontal drive permits.

The engine has a lot of pulling power no ?'s about that no problem at all with pulling most stuff. But the passenger set is just a bit to heavy and cars do not roll as well as other passenger cars.

 

The set is brand new, engines powered A and Dummy B came out in the spring and passenger cars just arrived. As been multiple years wait but worth it for the very very fine detail of the set. 

 

I am just trying to find something to power the B unit that will match with speed and pulling power.

 

I do have a Weaver drive similar gearing I could add to the B unit but would need the TMCC guts to run it! 

Why don't those passenger cars roll? That might be an easier fix than trying to match power of 2 different units.

 But the passenger set is just a bit to heavy and cars do not roll as well as other passenger cars.

 

You have never described the passenger cars.  What kind, how many?  

 

Have you found out how many of the set cars can be pulled?

 

Did you try oiling all the wheels, including the B unit?  

 

How about adding some weight to the A unit?  I don't know how the FP's are constructed but the 3rd Rail E7's had a light frame with a heavily weighted heavy fuel tank. 

If you convert to DCC, you could put almost any kind of drive in the B unit and use speed tables (in all DCC decoders) to speed match the two units.    You would probably have to use DMRI to set up the speed tables.   It can be done without it, but is much more tedious.    Also, you can store all the information you program into the decoder in your computer and load it to other locos if you want them to run the same, or reload this one if something happens.    

 

The Weaver drive is probably not the same speed as the GGD drive.    

 

You are probably going to have to do some programing to match dis-similar drives.   As someone mentioned, it might be easier to fix the passenger cars.    

If it's pulling other rolling stock but the passenger set is not moving right on its own then I'd agree that the problem may be the passenger wheelsets not spinning freely (check for a bent or misaligned axle and lubricate as usual) or lack of weight in the engine. I can't work out which passenger set you are talking about or how many cars it has but I recall that there was a similar problem with a 3rd Rail steam passenger set a few years back. I've never had this problem with 3rd Rail engines pulling GGD passenger cars.

I have a pair of these FP7s in 2 rail.    The 2 rail does not have traction tires.   However, they are very very heavy for an O scale engine.   I cannot imagine you would want to add weight.    I had one apart too, and there is not much space for additional weight.

I think I might just wait till they release a powered B unit. Did not really want to spend another $500 but might be the easiest route.

 

I do have some spare Weaver drives and different gear ratio towers; just need to gear the axles. 

But then I need the TMCC system to match.

 

The A as noted is really heavy no need for more weight 4 traction tires 2 each on front and rear axle.

 

It is just the cars are very well detailed and heavy.

 

Will post some pics.

Click on photos for a larger view.

 

Running around the ceiling loop.

Have the MTH GP7 in consist to get it to pull.

Mostly 0-120 curves.

 

I would carefully go over each and every one of those passenger cars, and make sure that:

 

1) Each and EVERY wheel pair rolls freely, and lube each end journal.

 

2) Each and EVERY pick-up roller has its roller free, then oil each roller shaft.

 

I have the Golden Gate Depot Southern Pacific Daylight scale passenger set, and had to change-out at least 6 or 7 pick-ups that did not even have a movable roller. Scott sent me all new pick-up roller assemblies as needed. I now am able to haul that 11 car passenger train with only a GS-4 steam locomotive. Lubrication, and good pick-up rollers made a HUGE improvement. 

The B unit in your FP7 "set" is really an F7 B unit. Only the A units differed in length between FP7 and F7's.  One option you have is to purchase a second powered FP7A unit and pull your train with ABA power.  Another option is to purchase a powered F7B unit from the upcoming F7 production run and swap the chassis - selling off a cross kitted dummy B unit. 

 

Ed Rappe

Hi Guys,

 

I am waiting for a reply from Scott Mann of 3rd rail about this specific subject that Keystoned Ed has mentioned.  That is buying a new powered 3 rail b unit from the upcoming run and connecting it to my existing powered 3 rail FP7 a unit.  The information says that the new powered 3 rail b unit will be a "slave unit" that runs in conjunction with the powered 3 rail a unit.  I asked Scott if this can be done and let me know what he thinks

 

Nick 

Yes I had e-mailed Scott to ask if I could just get a powered chassis to go with my existing B unit he said no the bodies are not that much so they would be doing a run soon with the powered B.

 

I did check the rollers they do roll OK it mostly the weight of the cars.

A dealer I checked with in Ontario has a spare A unit powered # 1403 for what was it $700 or so.

 

I was hoping to use some of the stuff I already have around here to power the B unit.

Have 2 P&D kits I picked up cheap used. They have some sort of TMCC board not sure what but dummy trucks.

Also have extra Weaver parts and lots of spare and different gear ratio towers and all drive shafts etc. 

If I can find some of the hi rail axles with gears to match could swap these in and have a powered B unit! if I can get the TMCC boards to sinc up.

 

 

http://www.lionel.com/Products...neID=&CatalogId=

 

Noted one of the OGR advertisers has Lionel F7 or 3 B unit engines like this for $245 powered with Legacy.

Perhaps could get one and do a bottom end swap over.

Would this run anywhere near close to the A unit speed?

I have the FP7 and it has got to be the heaviest diesel I have. There are two large weights mounted on the frame. I can see this on a 2 rail engine without traction tires, but an engine equipped with traction tires shouldn't need that much additional weight. Also I've noticed the electronics in this engine noticeably warming up the shell after about 15 minutes run time with a relatively short consist. I've wondered what would happen if I removed he weights, just haven't gotten around to it. could it pull more? Would it run cooler? In your case maybe the extra weight in the engine is limiting the number of cars that can be pulled?

 

Ken

kanawha: Sounds t o me like the locomotive is weighted for 2-rail ops. I'd think you could pull the weights and it would pull satisfactorily

Hey Guys,

For those still interested;

 

I received a reply from Scott Mann today about the 3 RAIL powered F7B units.  Quote "they will be fully featured B units(no smoke) and will come with full electronics to run independently from the A units. To match the Canadian Pacific FP7A units.  they can be reserved now"  end quote

 

That is the exact message that I received-there were no other roadnames mentioned-just that these were being made to specifically  run with the previously released Canadian Pacific FP7A units.

 

Nick 

Yes he had said that he would be running them.

Link here to the details;

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#F7

 

I am just really disappointed that for many of us that reserved a few years back when this complete set with the cars was announced. Some of us asked if the one powered A unit would power the whole train set the answer then was yes, no problem it would pull the full train set.

 

At that time they did not offer a powered B unit though it was requested.

For myself and several others we would have reserved from the start a few years back the powered B unit instead of a dummy B.

 

This means that we are paying another $500 for a 2nd B engine just to get the powered unit.

 

Can use the dummy on other trains I guess but a bit pricey for a spare engine I do not need! 

 

For now running with the MTH GP7 

 

The Sunset engine is a bit of a pain it is dropping power going over some turnouts.

Then the MTH engine is still running and the Sunset engine is dead  and needs to be restarted. It has 4 centre rail pickups, but they are rounded on the bottom instead of a flat roller design perhaps this is causing the power drop.

 

When the powered B unit arrives will have to put a power link cable between the A and B units.