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Interesting subject to me.

I became a certified BMW Motorcycle tech and service mgr when I part timed at the local dealer after retiring from the University. Mostly for my personal interest in the marque, but of value to the dealership in that they were able to fulfill a position required by the dealer agreement without the accompanying employee cost benefits and expenses. I had 30 years of personal knowledge of every BMW model as well so I benefited the dealership, customers and the brand from that respect also.

This Lionel train hobby is quite different. I might be able to work the same situation with a local Lionel dealership, but I don't want to do the part time employment. And as well, I have only a limited experience of 10 years of some of the product. So while I would enjoy the training, I would be of limited value...of value only to my own hobby and perhaps a few comments of help here and with the local train club members. So how much would it benefit Lionel...I think not enough to invest in training me. I wish there were more technical information, board level schematics, drawings, available without a formal training experience.

Some kind of seminar videos would be very welcome.

Chuck

That's a valid point.  Why should Lionel waste resources in both time and manpower to teach classes where the end user just wants to repair their trains and not share knowledge which would benefit Lionel and the consumers.  I imagine this is why there was a requirement to be associated with a LHS.  There are many certified Lionel Techs here that will jump in on a heartbeat and help out, which benefits Lionel and they get value from the training.

If Lionel did Technical Training videos, I would pay for them however. I think it would be a reasonable investment for me in terms of maintaining the engines and electronics. I'm comfortable with repairing my own Legacy base and Cab2 for example but the lack of schematics makes it somewhat difficult. BTW, the inside of those items are probably the most sloppy production consumer electronics I've seen. And I've seen a lot of insides with research instrumentation and the ham radio electronics. I'm set up for the LCS, but I like the controller with knobs better than the iPhone touch panel. I'm afraid though that the successor to the Cab2 is already here and it's the phone touch panels. Something with a mouse and pointer might be ok on a 10 inch screen if it comes to that.

 

Chuck, the idea is great.  One of the final steps before passing Lionel school was a practical exam.  A tech would hand you a locomotive with built in issues.   You take the Fluke and go at it to show you know what you were taught in school.   The time allowed was twelve minutes to diagnose.  Not everyone got it.

 

 

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry

This is a really interesting tack from a business perspective.  No more certified techs, no more up to date LHS techs.  Fix your own Ferarri, or bring it to the manufacturer (not dealer) as long as it is not more than 5 years old, or back to Plan A, fix it yourself with a video.

Now the burden is on Lionel to maintain a solid factory service team.  What if employees quit, move, take another job, get sick.  Single point failure for product support.   Probably the reason we have already seen the cut back in what Lionel will repair, or how long the backlog is for non Legacy product.

The back and forth on this subject is really interesting.  I guess it will playout over the next few years.  The thing that is most disturbing is the fact they are saying they do not want to train anyone.  So when an employee quits, and they have to get a trained replacement, how does that work.

As far as folks wanting schematics, that won't happen.  They are not given.  The policy really is find the failed board, replace board.   It has been techs that backward engineer failure points to save a board that may only have a single point failure.  Light out, audio amp, no smoke, etc,,,  G

One of the reasons I get the impression that this was changed, was out of the many that took the class and passed the open book test, the feeling was that only a percentage were tech savy enough to actually retain the info, trouble shoot and repair the higher tech trains.  Again there are quite a few folks here that could run circles around these courses, MartyF, GGG, and GRJ to name a few but a lot of the LHS Lionel Authorized techs that took the classes were not electronically inclined.  I just got the feeling that as the locomotives advanced, many of the LHS techs were being left behind even with training. 

It's a shame but in reality you used to be able to repair a lot of your vehicle too but now a lot of the folks who could do this work before have a hard time working on their cars even with training.  I really wanted to take the course as well.  I never had the chance given the LHS Authorized Lionel requirement and work schedule.  I'll make the most of the on line videos.

Last edited by MartyE

Well as i am getting older in life i wont be able to do the manual labor i do now.. It would of been nice to maybe have something i like to do. I think not training people is  a mistake.. Yea i have learned alot and fix alot of stuff theres still stuff i need to know.. I would of liked saying i was certifed .Also the parts discount as i spent tons of money in  parts over the last 5 years.

Last edited by jojofry

I have the time and the inclination to take the classes, just no classes to take.  With Lionel refusing to work on anything more than five years old nowadays, it looks like they want to accelerate the demise of older products with planned obsolescence.  This is probably a course that will put them with odds with a lot of customers that think a $1500 locomotive should be usable for more than 5-6 years!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the time and the inclination to take the classes, just no classes to take.  With Lionel refusing to work on anything more than five years old nowadays, it looks like they want to accelerate the demise of older products with planned obsolescence.  This is probably a course that will put them with odds with a lot of customers that think a $1500 locomotive should be usable for more than 5-6 years!

Well yea they think that there already remaking previous legacy engines! 

MartyE posted:

One of the reasons I get the impression that this was changed, was out of the many that took the class and passed the open book test, the feeling was that only a percentage were tech savy enough to actually retain the info, trouble shoot and repair the higher tech trains.  Again there are quite a few folks here that could run circles around these courses, MartyF, GGG, and GRJ to name a few but a lot of the LHS Lionel Authorized techs that took the classes were not electronically inclined.  I just got the feeling that as the locomotives advanced, many of the LHS techs were being left behind even with training. 

It's a shame but in reality you used to be able to repair a lot of your vehicle too but now a lot of the folks who could do this work before have a hard time working on their cars even with training.  I really wanted to take the course as well.  I never had the chance given the LHS Authorized Lionel requirement and work schedule.  I'll make the most of the on line videos.

Think about what you are saying Marty.  The guys fixing this stuff now, under a Lionel Certification, have not been trained or refreshed in over 6 years.  Last time school was given.  Additionally for every person that doesn't want to deal with electronics, there are probably 10 that do.  But, for those that do not want to work on their trains, how will posting video help them.  They want to send to someone with experience that can rapidly repair their train.

Look how quickly folks jumped on the Wifi units.  Do not underestimate the folks that are not afraid of technology.  They do not need to know how to make it, they just need to know how it operates, what the typical faults are, have access to some basic wiring schematics and trouble shooting guides and access to the parts and tech support when necessary.  

The car analogy that folks tend to use is so wrong in so many way.  I can speak from experience as I keep cars on average about 20 years.  My oldest is 46yo, I have cars 26, 14, 12, 4, 2 yo.   Yesterdays cars need maintenance every 6 months and special tools to do it right.  Timing gun, dwell meter, exhaust analyzer.  How many people actually knew how to rebuild a carburetor, or cleaned it every six months as called for. 

Today, you change oil once a year, filters every 3 years, plugs at 5 years plus .  Brakes last 5 years, warranties run 3 to 10 years.  No actual tuning required, though there are plenty of folks young to old, that plug computer into their performance cars and upload and download software to custom tune engine and transmission performance.  Press a few buttons on your dash, and your car tells you exactly what is wrong and what sensor is required to be replaced, if you have a fault.  Frankly, the reason less folks do maintenance is that there is less maintenance to do.  Or their time is worth more to them than the cost of an oil and filter change at $19.99.  Don't know how to do something, google it.  You will find your specific car, year, and problem with a detailed video of how to fix it.  Not just cars, computers, washer dryer, just about anything.  BUT, if you do not feel comfortable in doing it, you have trained techs at dealers to do it for you.

Back to trains.  IF you have a business model, where all repairs go back to the factory.  You have a single point failure system.  You have to find techs locally.  I can speak on experience about MTH model.  There are plenty of MTH service centers that support their customers easily and rapidly.  But those customers that do not have tech or shops have to send back to MTH.  That is quite a large amount and creates quite a backlog of work, when you have a small service organization, especially during the train season.  Folk with LHS and qualified techs, and Folks on this forum who uses ASC tech via mail do not have those types of waits.

Lionel has already put restrictions on what you can send in and when.  Time will tell his approach works.  G

GGG posted:
....................

Back to trains.  IF you have a business model, where all repairs go back to the factory.  You have a single point failure system.  You have to find techs locally.  I can speak on experience about MTH model.  There are plenty of MTH service centers that support their customers easily and rapidly.  But those customers that do not have tech or shops have to send back to MTH.  That is quite a large amount and creates quite a backlog of work, when you have a small service organization, especially during the train season.  Folk with LHS and qualified techs, and Folks on this forum who uses ASC tech via mail do not have those types of waits.

Lionel has already put restrictions on what you can send in and when.  Time will tell his approach works.  G

This actually would dovetail nicely into the "Important News About York and the TCA" thread.

How many from the public would willingly get more involved if they knew up front the challenges they will encounter getting something fixed when it breaks.  ("What do you mean I need to wait three months for you to get a part and have a tech try to fix it after I send it to you??!!")

Last edited by Dave45681

I think that's why I stay with Lionel, ordering the parts on a friendly website, getting instant response with email, and the parts in the mail in 2 or 3 days.

I have ordered from MTH, first of all most of the product does not have a parts breakdown and even if you have the part number like the smoke fan motor GRJ posted and order...time goes by with no idea if it worked until the email four weeks later and the mail. I don't care to use the phone for orders.

So far I have been able to fix anything, all I have to do is throw money at it on the Lionel site .

sinclair posted:
MartyE posted:

 Mike discussed the features many folks don’t use. Such as the 20+ levels of smoke, RR speeds, and TrainLink.

 

But I use all of these every operating session.  The TrainLink is great for the vision reefer.  If Lionel released more cars like the reefers and tankers, I'm sure this would get used a lot more.  I think the problem is there just isn't much product that even uses the TL, so of course it isn't used much.  Add the ability to make adjustments to MUed locomotives with it, and I think you'd also get more use out of it.  I'm still working on learning and using the 20+ smoke levels.  I must still be doing something wrong as when my steamers sit idle or have been running at the same speed for 5 min, the smoke just about vanishes, even after I just add fluid.  So I think Lionel could work on making the smoke units do better at maintaining smoke output and the levels more noticeable, then that'd get more use.  As for RR speeds, that's how I run them.  I hate the fact that I can't use them with some control settings, like in Cab-1 mode.  I'd rather have full stop added to the speeds along with a + and - button and remove the red knob on the remote. But then I am a father that ends up running trains after work while holding the baby who seems to want that big red thingy badly so he's always reaching over and bumping it.

So I guess I'm saying I'd hate for Lionel to remove these features as they would reduce my enjoyment as they are pretty much what sold me on Legacy control.

I also use TrainLink and RR speeds regularly.  They're great features and I enjoy them very much.  I'm not sure about the 20+ levels of smoke.  I regularly adjust between off, low, medium and high; I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the other levels occurred automatically based on the speed and laboring of the engine.

Cheers!

Keith

Dave45681 posted:

This actually would dovetail nicely into the "Important News About York and the TCA" thread.

How many from the public would willingly get more involved if they knew up front the challenges they will encounter getting something fixed when it breaks.  ("What do you mean I need to wait three months for you to get a part and have a tech try to fix it after I send it to you??!!")

Lionel repair times are regularly 2 weeks or less, parts if it's in stock 2 days.

MartyE posted:

Lionel repair times are regularly 2 weeks or less, parts if it's in stock 2 days.

My comment was derived from the inference by GGG regarding how things may be at other companies and how the lack of classes could end up shifting/modifying the positive experience most have now.

I wasn't specifically trying to poke Lionel in the eye for what has been a good experience for most now, this was "looking down the line" in concert (or so I intended) to GGG's thoughts.

-Dave

MartyE posted:
Dave45681 posted:

This actually would dovetail nicely into the "Important News About York and the TCA" thread.

How many from the public would willingly get more involved if they knew up front the challenges they will encounter getting something fixed when it breaks.  ("What do you mean I need to wait three months for you to get a part and have a tech try to fix it after I send it to you??!!")

Lionel repair times are regularly 2 weeks or less, parts if it's in stock 2 days.

But only if it's less than 5 years old, right?

I don't know John you tell me.  Fortunately I don't have any experience using Lionel CS yet other than my Legacy upgrade many years ago. 

Part's I imagine much like other industries do go out of stock permanently so I would guess ERR would be the route for some of that.  I would suggest rather than speculating and guessing Lionel's intent maybe an email to Mike Reagan will get the information that is sought in this instance.  I just passed on the information as it was presented.  I can't and don't speak for Lionel.  I only offer my opinion and impression based on what we were told at the LUG meeting.

Last edited by MartyE
MartyE posted:
Dave45681 posted:

This actually would dovetail nicely into the "Important News About York and the TCA" thread.

How many from the public would willingly get more involved if they knew up front the challenges they will encounter getting something fixed when it breaks.  ("What do you mean I need to wait three months for you to get a part and have a tech try to fix it after I send it to you??!!")

Lionel repair times are regularly 2 weeks or less, parts if it's in stock 2 days.

I do no think it can be calculated.  I read post here that state they have been told not to send in the train yet.  Others have sent trains to me because they could not send it to Lionel based on the wait.   All those told to wait until June or July to get an RA, shouldn't that count against the time to repair?   G

cjack posted:

I think that's why I stay with Lionel, ordering the parts on a friendly website, getting instant response with email, and the parts in the mail in 2 or 3 days.

I have ordered from MTH, first of all most of the product does not have a parts breakdown and even if you have the part number like the smoke fan motor GRJ posted and order...time goes by with no idea if it worked until the email four weeks later and the mail. I don't care to use the phone for orders.

So far I have been able to fix anything, all I have to do is throw money at it on the Lionel site .

And lots of help from folks on the forum.  So experience and training matter too.  G

Just a quick update...

We demo'd the High Rail engine control app at the April meeting. Good news is that it's  released. Check out some of the info from the

High Rail page.

A few screen shots...

Roster Page

Take note of the PRR Shark.  It's displaying it's speed via the graph around the user picture.

Photo Jun 24, 6 27 26 AM

Main Operating Screen

Again the target and current speed displayed around the picture ID.

Photo Jun 24, 6 27 04 AM

RR Speed page.

Photo Jun 24, 6 27 09 AM

Lighting Menu

Photo Jun 24, 6 32 54 AM

Attachments

Images (4)
  • Photo Jun 24, 6 27 26 AM
  • Photo Jun 24, 6 27 04 AM
  • Photo Jun 24, 6 27 09 AM
  • Photo Jun 24, 6 32 54 AM
Last edited by MartyE

Brian has told me for now it only runs Legacy Engines.  I really like the picture you can add.  It does take a little to get used to but take advantage of the apps "help" feature for the gestures.  Brian did a nice job with this.  There are still features he wants to add and is actively looking for feedback via his website and the App review process.

In the fall LUG meeting we can show more of what he and the other LCS partners are doing.  So cool having an open protocol for these guys to make these cool apps.  As others join the LCS program we hope they will let us show their "stuff" as well.

Last edited by MartyE

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