Are Postwar Lionel aluminum passenger cars anodized?

I don't know. But I do know that they clean up beautifully using Mother's. I got a very worn set, probably 6 or 7 years ago now, and worked them over. They are still shining brightly!

That's what the consensus seems to be with people who have used it. Yet, some posters on the older threads say the cars are anodized and I'm a bit concerned with that in the sense that why does the Mother's company post that warning? It doesn't say what the potential risks are. 

I don't know if they're anodized or not.   My original Lionel aluminum pax cars (the 2500 series presidential cars) cleaned up beautifully with Mothers.

My dad bought them when I was born in '62.  I run them behind the 1996 TMCC Santa Fe F3 A-B set.

Roger, the key is to use as little Mother's as needed.   At least in my experience.

I was thinking of using a toothbrush with it to get into the grooves. Those of you who use the product, what do you use to apply it?

-Roger

I used a toothbrush for the grooves, but if I were to do it over again, I would try something else. The bristles on the toothbrush don't really scrub the car. They just sort of slide along. A lot of polish got left in the grooves that was a real pain to get out. And in the end, the inside of the grooves was less shiny than the rest of the car. Though, to be honest I'm not usually looking hard enough at them to notice that. I might try some kind of brush (not a metal one) in a rotary tool at the very lowest speed and with a light touch. Actually, before that, I think I would try a natural bristle paintbrush cut all the way down to the nub, (so that it's stiff). Just guessing, now. I can tell you that a soft rag worked well elsewhere.

The fact that restorers are able to improve the shine show that they are not anodized.  Even mothers mag polish would have no effect on anodized aluminum other than cleaning off dirt.  Generally, if your rag turns black, you're polishing bare aluminum. 

I cut the stiff bristles of a small paint brush down to about 1/4" and use that to scrub the grooved areas.   It can serve to polish by adding a bit of mothers and working it in as well as a finishing step to lift out remaining black compound.

Bruce

I think they were anodized.  Once you polish them the anodized coating is gone, and they shine better.  Depends on what you want for a final look - the anodized finish was a dull silver, kind of like a flat clear coat.

Try some flour after the Mother's polish.  It helps some to get rid of the residue.  I admit to having an awful time cleaning the grooves on my Mac Shops Budd cars - it is almost a groove by groove process.

nickaix posted:

I used a toothbrush for the grooves, but if I were to do it over again, I would try something else. The bristles on the toothbrush don't really scrub the car. They just sort of slide along. A lot of polish got left in the grooves that was a real pain to get out. And in the end, the inside of the grooves was less shiny than the rest of the car. Though, to be honest I'm not usually looking hard enough at them to notice that. I might try some kind of brush (not a metal one) in a rotary tool at the very lowest speed and with a light touch. Actually, before that, I think I would try a natural bristle paintbrush cut all the way down to the nub, (so that it's stiff). Just guessing, now. I can tell you that a soft rag worked well elsewhere.

Use Q-Tips (and lots of them) to get the polish inside the grooves.  I've reworked a couple full strings of AMT aluminum cars and you just need to spend time using the cotton swabs by applying pressure with your index finger on the back of the swab and working the polish out.  Boring as hell, but I watched tv while doing the work so at least I turned that into productive time.  You're not going to damage the aluminum, and the finish will look like the other areas you've buffed by hand.

Would Bom-Ami (Spelling?) work?

I'd be leery of any powder based cleanser like Bon-Ami when cleaning aluminum - it's an awfully soft metal and is easily scratched.  Baking soda is one of the ingredients, and that will produce scratches (coin collectors used to clean silver coins with it; looking at the surface of the coin when you're done reveals there are minute scratches left behind.

i used a large Sanford eraser and had some good luck getting the grunge off. I do not believe these passenger cars were ever shining.

franktrain

I worked for an aluminum extrusion business for 10 yrs. I was Quality control on a press crew, I have been to many anodize shops; the shop I worked for had a giant automatic paint shop to paint pieces 3ft to 20 ft.  Aluminum cars are not anodized, they are natural finish, they a very porous and very soft. I don't know what alloy they are. If I was still involved with that  business I could cut one up to get a piece of it to run though the spectroscope, that would tell what alloy of metals they used. I would a imagine that they used a common casting of that time, I could not see them spending the $ for an exotic blend. Does any body know who did their casting  for them? I guessing they used 6061 or 6063, both very common.

If you own an Apple computer, laptop, IPad you have an example of what clear anodized aluminum looks like. Mothers is a good aluminum polish but any metal polish would work. The trouble with polishing 60 year old aluminum is you will have do all your cars if you want them to match. They were never highly polished, the shine is typical of an extrusion, mill finish. 

Pete

that's exactly what I was saying natural or mill finish; been to many years forget some terminology. It will definitely take a lot of elbow grease.

I have a set of those passenger cars.  I completely disassembled each one.  I then washed the aluminium body with dishwashing detergent.  After drying I used Mother's aluminium polish.  That stuff made them shine like new.  

Since this thread is about postwar cars I assume there is some value to having them as opposed to more modern production which could probably be had cheaper. The flat channel post war cars from around 1956 -1959 were made with somewhat of a shine. All others in original condition appear dull or as if frosted. Using aluminum polish to make any of them shine "like new" is just incorrect as they never did shine like a new mag wheel. If the fact that the cars being post war has any value to you, then the best approach is to clean with a medium tooth brush in warm soapy water and dry with the best fluffiest towel in the house.

There is an acid solution you can mix up I think it might have muriatic acid in it and something else. We kept it in a spray bottle. We used it on our aluminum wheels on our dump trucks, the would get real dingy and oxidized. You sprayed this on your wheels then hosed it off and they would be nice and shiny and clean. I will check with a friend and see if he knows what the mix was, I'll post it as soon as I find out. Although it might be to strong for trains if not it would do a nice job. working in the aluminum factory when I was younger we used to soak our extrusion dies caustic, it was a powder mixed with boiling water and it was so strong it ate the aluminum right out of the steel dies and would eat you up to if you it on you or in it. They said it would eat bones and all.

An easy way to test to see if  cars are anodized is to take a amp/ohm meter and check to see if the car body is conductive. Anodize is non conductive. When checking make sure that you  do not use the pointed tip of the probes but rather the sides of the probes as the pointed tips can penetrate thru the anodize. Cape Cod Polishing Cloths are another good product for cleaning aluminum. The alloy is most likely a 6000 series aluminum as this is commonly used on extrusions. 6000 series such as 6061 or 6063 have a small amount of silicon and magnesium mixed into the alloy. You need to take that into consideration when attempting to clean.

Frisco Brakeman posted:

There is an acid solution you can mix up I think it might have muriatic acid in it and something else. We kept it in a spray bottle. We used it on our aluminum wheels on our dump trucks, the would get real dingy and oxidized. You sprayed this on your wheels then hosed it off and they would be nice and shiny and clean. I will check with a friend and see if he knows what the mix was, I'll post it as soon as I find out. Although it might be to strong for trains if not it would do a nice job. working in the aluminum factory when I was younger we used to soak our extrusion dies caustic, it was a powder mixed with boiling water and it was so strong it ate the aluminum right out of the steel dies and would eat you up to if you it on you or in it. They said it would eat bones and all.

The material used to "eat" aluminum was likely sodium hydroxide aka lye. Its also used in some oven cleaners. 

You can find wheel cleaners at the auto parts stores to clean aluminum. I use Eagle One brand. Their etching cleaner is for rough cast wheels but don't use it on polished aluminum or it will leave a dull finish. They also make cleaners for polished wheel that won't attack the finish.

Pete

Yes,The solution to disolve the aluminum was most likely sodium hydroxide. Don't even attempt to use any caustic based cleaner on the aluminum bodies. For the ultimate bright finish you would need to go to a professional metal finishing shop and have the car bodies bright dipped or electropolished. Bright dipping aluminum  requires the use of a phosphoric acid and nitric acid recipe at a high temperature. The finish is mirror bright.

bigo426 posted:

Using aluminum polish to make any of them shine "like new" is just incorrect as they never did shine like a new mag wheel. If the fact that the cars being post war has any value to you, then the best approach is to clean with a medium tooth brush in warm soapy water and dry with the best fluffiest towel in the house.

A valid point. But I think it is possible for a postwar piece to have a subjective value both for being postwar, and for being shiny. It is like the guy who restores an old car, but adds some improvements, like a clear coat, or a 12v electrical system. You can say, "if it being old was of any value to you, you would have restored it to 100% stock," but obviously he will disagree with you. And it is his car  .

I think I will also try a brass brush. I bought a 3 pack of those at Ace Hardware last year to clean the tips of my soldering irons. One of the best things I've bought for soldering. But I think they would work well to clean the grooves and soft enough not to do much (if any ) scratching. 

Does heat and humidity affect the AL?  I know if you have AL antennae outside, and you do not coat them with clean enamel here in Houston, they will pit.  AL cars usually stay INSIDE, but.......

I still think they were anodized.  I had a Clark Benson extrusion for a while, produced by Lionel, and incorrect because of that lower letterboard where there should have been flutes, and it was definitely anodized.  I am a great fan of doing it the way you want, as opposed to preserving originality.  If you want them polished, by all means polish them.  A wire brush might not give you the finish you want.  

If you get it all polished, and then discover you want the original look, a coat of dull clear lacquer will come close.

I mostly use Mac Shops Budd extrusions, and they come in raw aluminum.  They must be polished about once every three or four years.

I used to put my BMW 2002 aluminum valve cover into the dishwasher!  (Don't tell my wife) It cleaned it up nicely.  

I bought the Mother's cleaner yesterday and the cars just arrived this morning. I'll update on how they look after I start working on them. Great tips as usual from our Forum.

Roger

Got some preliminary work done on the first car. Comparison shots below........

-Roger

ROGER1 posted:

Got some preliminary work done on the first car. Comparison shots below........

It should be noted that the finish on the top body IS the way they came out of the Lionel factory in the 1950's.  They didn't have a mirror shine to them.

Rusty

Rusty,

You are absolutely correct. But I decided a long time ago, that when I buy my trains, I will modify them or dress them up they way I want.  I'm not much concerned with investment value (except for a few select pieces of mine). I buy my trains to run them and most of all......to work on them.

I appreciate all the tips that were written above. I've got the cars mostly done. All that remains is replacing the rear roof on the observation car (I was a little too aggressive on cleaning the  paint) and putting chip LEDs behind the 3 rear lenses. Below are some pics of the 3 cars and a short video of them running behind my 2343 set.

By the way, a couple of tips for anyone attempting this. By the time I got to the third car, I had learned some things. I cleaned off most of the black residue with paper towels and elbow grease. That was followed by pieces of blue Scotch Brite and best of all.......after the residue dried a bit.....one of my brass brushes. THAT worked really well (without scratching the metal). It got right into the grooves to remove most of the black remaining. 

-Roger

Cool idea on the brass brush, need to try that on mine and the dishwasher too. Sorry guys couldn't remember the acid dip recipe just that it contained some form of acid and boiling water. I worked for the Aluminum factory when I was in my late teens and up to my later 20s, I'm now 50  lots of places, faces, and traces have been lost to time! Yee Haw!

Working on my 1951, 2500 series Lionel Lines cars. I have used Nu finish car polish to clean and give me a nice, not to shiny finish.  New LED lighting, which will save almost a half of amp per car.  Painting all if the plastic ends silver, but I need advice on a easy to clean up and paint the dome on the 2532 Silver Range.