Has anybody checked the Atlas's A-Z Shipping Schedule lately? Lots of engines pushed back to next year. The F3's won't be delivered anytime soon either.
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UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
The SW in Rock Island, announced in February 2016 (which I ordered), will now not be delivered until the 2nd quarter 2018????? How are they able to stay in business?
After the F7s got goofy on the Santa Fe's and the 12 year wait on the dash 8-40C's that are still just a promise I dropped atlas motive power off my radar. It may be nice but it's a risky order. From now on before I buy atlas I want to see it first
The China Syndrome seems to throw everything off. Years ago,I ordered Intermountain SD-40-2s in HO,and about 2 years later I got a message saying my diesels were in. I forgot all about them&cancelled the order.
I wondered if the 8-40Cs ever made it. UNBELIEVABLE!!
Al Hummel
By the time I receive my Wheeling & Lake Erie and CSX SD40's both of those railroads could be fallen flags.
Atlas, however, does seem to be doing a good job of meeting their production schedule for rolling stock. I just got 8 Master 25,500 gallon tanks cars and I think they were off by only 1 quarter.
No, the dash 8s never made it and it's really been like 5 years but it's a lot of years to wait for something
I appreciate that Atlas is inspecting all the new F7s. My Rio Grande all powered ABBA run perfectly now, #5581, 5582, 5583, and 5584 (with F7A non-powered shell installed on a new powered F7A chassis).
Only part of the Amtrak F7A engines were released. Some of the west coast dealers got theirs. The two Amtrak F7A powered I ordered are at Atlas O waiting for parts from China. The Chinese New Year slowed things down. When the Santa Fe parts arrive, the Amtrak parts should be with them. I waited so long that when they arrive, it will be a Pleasant surprise.
catnap posted:Has anybody checked the Atlas's A-Z Shipping Schedule lately? Lots of engines pushed back to next year. The F3's won't be delivered anytime soon either.
Over on another thread about Lionel VisionLine, I alluded to Chinese factory production issues... and how the "We're not living in Kansas anymore" syndrome really does negatively affect the delicate balance of our toy train hobby's supply chain. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.
At a certain point... as the importer, one has to ask oneself, "Why even bother?". This is definitely one of those times.
As a consumer -- and I don't know how representative I am feeling this way -- I just don't care anymore, because I have a healthy roster of model trains already. So when I see 3Q2018 for something as basic as an SD40 locomotive, my eyes glaze over and I just politely move on with a "Thanks, but no thanks."
I wish all the importers the best as they try to navigate these challenging times. But this is as good an example as any that gives us pause to ask ourselves how they even stay in business. 
I don't think I could be a Stateside product manager -- essentially having one's hands tied on every project -- dealing with this part of having stuff made overseas. 
David
Based on the newest posted A-Z schedule it appears the earliest quoted delivery on engines is 3Q 17 and we all now how good Atlas has been on these estimates, it appears either they are going to a new mfg for engines or they are trying to get the current mfg to better Q control and production deadline standards. JMO
So, I signed off from BTO from Lionel because the product they delivered wasn't as specified. Now, this will be my last Atlas O BTO because they can't deliver and yes they are all really BTO; MTH, Lionel and Atlas. The whole O gauge business seems to be going to *ell in a *and basket. My last hope is MTH, but I'm sure they will also disappoint many people on a large scale soon.
Back to the Atlas O thing. I was aware, but wasn't affected by the model train manufacturing shake up in China a few years ago. What is the problem now? Silence isn't golden; silence yields resent (at least for me). I want to know why delivery has been pushed out.
For those that would challenge my dissatisfaction;
1) received Lionel Legacy 0-8-0 that was fake Lionel Legacy. If you don't know what I am referring to, just search BEMC.
2) ordered Lionel Legacy Mogul, that mysteriously disappeared from the shipping schedule after above #1 occurred. This one was also to ship early 2017, but now I doubt it will ship 2017, if at all.
3) ordered Atlas O switcher with scheduled delivery for spring of this year and now scheduled for some time in 2018.
The manufacturers want us to pre-order. I get that, but they need to deliver within a reasonable time frame and deliver the product as advertised.
I'm not happy and as others have suggested; I will vote with my wallet.
Matt Makens posted:No, the dash 8s never made it and it's really been like 5 years but it's a lot of years to wait for something
I have a brochure with an Oct 2009 pre-order announcement and a product arrival date of May 2010. Officially announced June 25, 2010,est delivery originally listed in 2011, currently on the New Product Announcements list as 4Q 2014, newest A-Z schedule lists 3Q 2017, clearly this model is the all time leader in getting scheduled, rescheduled and rescheduled again. just saying!
hibar posted:Matt Makens posted:No, the dash 8s never made it and it's really been like 5 years but it's a lot of years to wait for something
I have a brochure with an Oct 2009 pre-order announcement and a product arrival date of May 2010. Officially announced June 25, 2010,est delivery originally listed in 2011, currently on the New Product Announcements list as 4Q 2014, newest A-Z schedule lists 3Q 2017, clearly this model is the all time leader in getting scheduled, rescheduled and rescheduled again. just saying!
I have no dog in this particular Dash-8 hunt. (My dogs are in the Santa Fe F7 hunt and follow-on F3 hunt. I'm SO GLAD I demanded -- and received -- a refund on my Santa Fe F7's until Atlas-O actually ships the darn things!!!)
But could you imagine the run-around the Atlas-O Stateside product manager has gotta be getting from the overseas factories??? 
I couldn't deal with it day in and day out. I guess to maintain one's sanity, they just gotta deal with what they can... then go home at the end of the day realizing it is what it is. And there's only so much that can be done -- given the volatility of the Chinese factory/labor landscape where every day seems to be a brand new day. 
David
Sorry Atlas O but I couldn't wait for you to make some Conrail dash 8's. I got the PS3 premiers from MTH and boy am I glad that I got them!
Atlas has never fully recovered from the Sanda Kan fiasco, although they stayed with them for a period of time they eventually went with another mfg, in the last few years rolling stock production with the exception of the CZ cars got pretty much back on track. It appears with the delivery of the full CZ sets that end of the business is good, motive power however has never gotten back on schedule and the SF F7s seem to be another setback, frankly I am less than optimistic that any engines on the latest schedule will arrive in there projected quarter.JMO
It sucks for Atlas worse than it sucks for us.
I'm still a loyal Atlas customer.
I am a loyal Atlas customer as well. I was away from the hobby for several years and this just reminds me how these waits for locomotives was so very frustrating.
Has anyone on here ever experienced the loss of their pre-order $$ because a vender went out of business? I have two SW9's, one SW8, and a set of F3's pre-ordered; that's a lot of dough on the table.
I love atlas stuff it's very nice and comes at a good price but I'm out on locos from them from here on out. F3s took so long I cancelled and ordered the Lionel's Dash 8-40Cs seem like they'll be her just after the second coming and then the Santa Fe F7s are somehow stuck in purgatory. If there was communication from atlas regarding the long production delays and errors it would help to numb the pain but it seems like telling their customers what is going on with their products is either beneath them or just inconvenient. I get Atlas updates every month telling about all their new products and it's always heavier on announcements that arrivals and devoid of product updates on things that have been on their list for several years. I just don't trust that's it's coming any more so I'll take my orders to the guys who can get em to me.
Boo Man posted:... I have two SW9's, one SW8, and a set of F3's pre-ordered; that's a lot of dough on the table.
Hopefully you haven't put any deposit money down. Plenty of dealers take pre-orders w/o requiring deposits. When I referred to getting a refund in my earlier post, that was because dealers sent out final invoices at the end of December -- thinking they'd be shipping F7's to customers within a week. So I paid my invoice. Then we heard about Atlas-O inspecting F7's in NJ, and then the Santa Fe F7 A-units were held back -- reportedly for a couple of months, but who really knows???
Challenging times for sure.
David
What I don't get is why Atlas doesn't just throw down some communication their customers. I had a $1600 set of locos on order. I had a $1200 set of the F3s on order and $1200 in dash 8's. Now if I just found my money in a bag I wouldn't be at all worried about how I spent it but I bust my hump to earn the money to by these things and at 70 or 80 hours a week, I'd rather spend it somewhere that I can trust. I only say these things cuz I hope Atlas is reading this borum
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Boo Man posted:... I have two SW9's, one SW8, and a set of F3's pre-ordered; that's a lot of dough on the table.
Hopefully you haven't put any deposit money down. Plenty of dealers take pre-orders w/o requiring deposits. When I referred to getting a refund in my earlier post, that was because dealers sent out final invoices at the end of December -- thinking they'd be shipping F7's to customers within a week. So I paid my invoice. Then we heard about Atlas-O inspecting F7's in NJ, and then the Santa Fe F7 A-units were held back -- reportedly for a couple of months, but who really knows???
Challenging times for sure.
David
I am going to request a refund of my deposit moneys while maintaining my order.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:catnap posted:Has anybody checked the Atlas's A-Z Shipping Schedule lately? Lots of engines pushed back to next year. The F3's won't be delivered anytime soon either.
Over on another thread about Lionel VisionLine, I alluded to Chinese factory production issues... and how the "We're not living in Kansas anymore" syndrome really does negatively affect the delicate balance of our toy train hobby's supply chain. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.
At a certain point... as the importer, one has to ask oneself, "Why even bother?". This is definitely one of those times.
As a consumer -- and I don't know how representative I am feeling this way -- I just don't care anymore, because I have a healthy roster of model trains already. So when I see 3Q2018 for something as basic as an SD40 locomotive, my eyes glaze over and I just politely move on with a "Thanks, but no thanks."
I wish all the importers the best as they try to navigate these challenging times. But this is as good an example as any that gives us pause to ask ourselves how they even stay in business.
I don't think I could be a Stateside product manager -- essentially having one's hands tied on every project -- dealing with this part of having stuff made overseas.
David
David,
Not that you're necessarily saying this, but I think most folks on this forum who clamor to "bring manufacturing back to the US" really have no idea what that entails. Similarly, saying a domestic project manager has his "hands tied" dealing with overseas is a half-accurate statement.
In short, if manufacturing of a labor-intensive product were done domestically, the price of the finished product would be noticeably higher. I worked for a French manufacturing / power generation giant (with a worldwide presence) until about 4 years ago. We were saving 87 cents from each dollar having manufacturing done in India. We then built a huge facility in China because we were saving 80% of India manufacturing cost by moving it to China. An automated manufacturing process would be somewhat different. But my guess is that the locomotives we're discussing are labor-intensive.
In terms having "hands tied," that's sort of true. The company that exports manufacturing and sits in its domestic office trying to manage the process over the phone is definitely in for a real eye-opener. It's common knowledge, however, that to have a successful international manufacturing set-up, you need boots on the ground at that facility. Either regular and meaningful visits, or expats stationed there for months or longer. Once things are humming, you still need regular visits. If the commonly known basic "manufacturing abroad 101" rules are implemented, there is a much higher level of control, at least of the process and expectations. I'd be remiss if I didn't say that this too is costly. But anyone with half a brain should realize it's less costly to spend on rigorous process "now" and meet deadlines than to sink a lot of time and money into an increasingly costly project and see no return on investment for a period that is out of your control and that keeps slipping to the right.
Peter
This isn't meant as a dig at Atlas as I like their products and know they are well-intentioned. And, this isn't meant to insult anyone who pre-ordered. But, frankly what's most amazing to me is that people actually are complaining here about the delays. There's an old adage that goes something like: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Didn't anyone learn a lesson with the original CZ debacle? What did it take? Seven years to get the entire set? I didn't even order that set but that situation made quite an impression and was a great data point.
Pre-ordering can be a wonderful concept -- provided consumer expectations are set properly and then managed accordingly when projects go off the tracks (no pun intended).
What we've observed in the past few years though is almost a "perfect storm" of sorts, where overseas manufacturing is concerned. Add to that fact is the whole phenomenon that most enthusiasts already have more trains than their great-grandchildren could ever use (if they even took up the hobby). So let's be honest here... nobody really needs any of this stuff to begin with.
That's what I'm talking about when I say "Why bother?" if an importer needs to schedule a 3Q2018 ship-date for something as basic as an SD40 locomotive that our market has seen time and time again already.
Folks have been practically begging Lionel to re-issue their rotary gondola coal tipple operating accessory that was last produced roughly 15 years ago. Yet the word on the street seems to be they can't get an overseas factory to step up to the plate and even build the darn thing. 
Can we then assume these factories are obviously busy enough producing mundane products to be turning down good work?
So I guess that's just where we are nowadays -- sort of a "sign of the times". Basic stuff that barely garners a second look is 18 months out on a good day, and the more unique goodies with any degree of complexity can't get made anymore.
Sounds like the "golden era of model railroading" is beginning to show a few tarnishes. 
We all knew it couldn't last forever. Few things ever do. But it had a good run while it lasted.
David
David, we are in agreement. Even tho I tease you about your shipping schedule postings you're not wrong. Besides, it's all in good fun. And that's my attitude now, why bother. I've got more trains than I could possibly run. And ever changing taste towards the more discerning models and Atlas makes nice stuff when they make it. But their repeated manufacturing issues are getting old. Sink or swim Atlas. You don't seem to be having these issues on your other scales and it's not like you're new to this.
Interesting the next engine up 3Q 2017 is the Tman dash-8 with 4Q 2017 set for F3s and balance of F7 runs. The last run of the SD40s took several years to get produced [mine came from that run] JDs Trains was actually in for a custom run in the SP scheme but finally cancelled after the numerous delays and pricing questions, Atlas is doing that scheme in next years "projected" run,all subject to change of course. just saying!
hibar posted:Interesting the next engine up 3Q 2017 is the Tman dash-8
yeah right!
Rocky Mountaineer posted:
Sounds like the "golden era of model railroading" is beginning to show a few tarnishes.
David
Mark Twain said something like, "the reports of my death were greatly exaggerated."
I will say that, on a base level, I totally agree that all this stuff is unnecessary. No one "needs" any of it. But, I think your remarks reflect the fact that there is an incestuous little bunch on this forum that repeats its own opinion so often that it eventually confuses its opinion for fact. Seems there is an assumption that just because a handful of forumites have more than they "need" and are winding down their buying, this is reflective of the high-end segment of this hobby.
Maybe that's true. But then again, there are folks entering the hobby daily that soon graduate to higher end stuff. I'm but one example. We entered the hobby 5 years ago and within a year were buying Premier locomotives and sets. Within another year, Vision locomotives were on the roster. I don't "need" any more. And, we are discriminating. But, I certainly want more. For instance, I just bought the GSC CZ set. I have no motive power that looks right with this set. Do I need matching motive power? No, I'm not a "prototypical snob." But, guess what I will be open to buying in the near future? 
Finally, I don't think you've missed the fact that even this incestuous little group, that often discusses how much excess it has, puts up countless threads every time a new MTH or Lionel catalogue is to be issued to discuss what else they plan to buy.
End of Reality Check >
Peter
You got that right.
PJB posted:...
Finally, I don't think you've missed the fact that even this incestuous little group, that often discusses how much excess it has, puts up countless threads every time a new MTH or Lionel catalogue is to be issued to discuss what else they plan to buy.
End of Reality Check ...
With all due respects, I think you're describing an "alternate reality". 
I walked away with the distinct impression that many folks posting here on the forum were NOT planning to pre-order all that much -- if anything -- from Lionel's 2017 Signature Catalog. At least nowhere near what they had pre-ordered in recent years.
They're just hoping dealers continue to order lots of BTO extra's to support buying habits when the stuff actually arrives here in the States. And even then, buyers seem to be increasinly more selective. Look at the perpetual discount sales -- literally every week -- that forum sponsors need to dangle in front of buyers to move product nowadays. 
It's not that easy. That's all the reality check I need.
David
I have come to a cross roads in the buying stuff department. I dont run the stuff I have so Im moving stuff out for sale and getting things that are more special. I love the passenger trains because the whole train is special so Im going to move to primarily passenger trains so everything will be in sets. I love my CZ set, its one of my favorite trains but if I had known I was going to be into it for 5 years and at the end I couldve bought the whole set in one shot I would've waited. Fool me once. But is been a consistent hurry up and wait for something that takes 4,5,6or even 7+ years. With dealers requiring deposits and crazy long waits on things its a big ol roll of the dice. And what if it comes and isnt up to standards, no youre stuck with no recourse. In the future I going for the cash and carry method. If its in stock and I like I will buy it but no more pre orders for this guy until I see them get it figured out. I cant be the only one who feels this way
Matt Makens posted:... I cant be the only one who feels this way
You are definitely not! And I suspect what we're describing here is very much a growing trend. And the importers and dealers know it.
OTOH, the overseas manufacturers don't seem to give a hoot about anything anymore as long as they're paid... hence Lionel's infamous "Vision Line GG1 Steam Locomotive".
David
Guys,
I have to agree with many of the posts in this thread. I have been into the O scale part of the hobby for 13 years now. I have seen items I wanted in catalogs and found that they were never made.
I have ordered items that were not made or not shipped. I have given up on the catalogs, online or in print. I am lucky we still have a few brick and mortar hobby shops in the Chicagoland area. I frequent them and the the local monthly show ( DuPage) and eventually find what I need for my layout.
Having owned a hobby business, decades ago, and imported LGB trains I see both sides of the issue. The customer has to be frustrated, as am I with the poor performance of the Chinese manufactures in making good product and getting it to retailers. The retailers have to be frustrated because there are customers wishing to buy product.
I wonder why, as others, these products can't be made somewhere else. I know this is an issue for other scales as well. LGB finally got out and have moved back to Europe. Hopefully others may follow.
Tom
Rocky Mountaineer posted:PJB posted:...
Finally, I don't think you've missed the fact that even this incestuous little group, that often discusses how much excess it has, puts up countless threads every time a new MTH or Lionel catalogue is to be issued to discuss what else they plan to buy.
End of Reality Check ...
With all due respects, I think you're describing an "alternate reality".
The 2017 catalogue? Yeah, my point was much more general. Presumably, this alleged crowd of hobbyists that you and others keep claiming is "winding down" in its purchasing didn't just arrive at that point with the 2017 catalogue. But, if you think the exception makes the rule, go with that "reality" ...
BTO is the present business plan for the big 3 and not likely to change any time soon, there are dealers nationwide who do not require deposits or credit cards up front and their prices are competitive, bear in mind the O gauge RTR market is driven primarily by 3 rail collector/operators,with out them Atlas would not be producing 2 rail models as part of their runs. Obviously production from China can be frustrating but it is what it is.JMO
At some point though it falls on Atlas to iron out the kinks in their logistics and keep the momentum going. Once they got the Cz up n running they did pretty well, they also have done well on the Gundersons and freight cars but they keep falling on their face where locomotives are concerned. We have to remember, Atlas, MTH & Lionel are in this business to make money, and they use toy trains to do it. In order to sell product you need customers to buy it and if you're customers want your stuff but you can't give it to them they go elsewhere. It seems like such a rookie move to keep missing the mark with your fairly expensive products and then just ignoring your customers and not tell them why they're waiting so long. Atlas isn't the only game in town and their customers have options. I'm not speaking for anybody but myself here but I can say I'm sick of waiting on them to figure it out. It's not their first rodeo and they've been doing it for a long time, what's the problem?
And yet, Sunset 3rd Rail just seems to keep the locos coming. What is their secret? How do they make their shipping dates? I don't get it.
Dick
I believe Sunset uses more than one builder and they are not as large "factories" as the big 3 use giving Sunset faster builds [much shorter production runs] and delivery times. Scott is personally over there several times a year to stay on top of production and QC issues. JMO
CBQer posted:And yet, Sunset 3rd Rail just seems to keep the locos coming. What is their secret? How do they make their shipping dates? I don't get it.
Dick
Because Scott cares and puts in the effort instead of just blowing smoke like Atlas.
Laidoffsick posted:CBQer posted:And yet, Sunset 3rd Rail just seems to keep the locos coming. What is their secret? How do they make their shipping dates? I don't get it.
Dick
Because Scott cares and puts in the effort instead of just blowing smoke like Atlas.
Not only THAT, but Scott actually visits his builders VERY FREQUENTLY, and catches the potential mistakes during production, instead of simply waiting for the "finished model" to show up here in the U.S..
When one of our most esteemed forum members ignited the anti-Lionel roman candle, with the VL GG1 "parting lines" thing ...... before that topic thread was deleted, 3rd Rail's Scott chimed in to inject some adult perspective.
Maybe he'll do the same now.
