Atwater Models-All Nation

El,

Last known address of The All Nation Line is:

The All Nation Line

23W546 St Charles Street

Carol Stream, Illinois 60188

Phone No:  630-682-9170

The Owner of All Nation, Bill Pope's son, Danny Pope had tables at the old O March meet in the old hotel location for about two years after Bill passed away trying to sell some AN kits and parts at their last retail pricing schedule.  Not much stuff moved off of his tables as there were plenty of AN kits and parts on other vendors tables selling for a lot less.  It is my understanding that, at one time,  the current owner of the remains of AN wanted around 25K to take the remains of the line from him and had no takers.

I have been told that in the last year or so of production someone working for Bill tried to heat the F-7 dies to speed up production and damaged the dies.  The F-3 unit dies were still OK at the time of Bill's passing.

If someone did purchase this line, they would be faced with using tooling that does not come up to current OSHA safety standards therefore making it difficult to hire competent workers legally to use the tooling.  You could, of course do it all yourself as a sole proprietor and I think that is how Bill operated near the end of his operation of the business.

The original AN diesel kits are composed of pressure diecast Zamac.  In later years Bill started using a soft alloy for items he had ran out of, like the diesel switcher truck sideframes.

The last prices list I have from AN lists the freight car kits at around $40.00 less trucks.  These kits are on ebay all of the time and are found at almost all O scale meets for between $15.00 and $30.00 each.

The Diesel switcher and the F units in various levels of completion from new kit to finished models are also found at these meets and on ebay with regularity, all selling for less than the last AN list pricing.

In my opinion,  the best thing that could be obtained from the old AN line would be their power trucks and power truck components.  I did see some of these for sale at the last Chicago meet and the asking prices was somewhat higher than I was willing to pay as I have a decent supply of these trucks "In stock"  for future projects.

Now, all this being said, I wish you well in your attempt to revive this line.  As someone said above, the AN line was one that kept O Scale 2 rail alive through the 1960s and early 1970s and I still build their kits.

Joe Foehrkolb

rrjjf posted:

In my opinion,  the best thing that could be obtained from the old AN line would be their power trucks and power truck components.  I did see some of these for sale at the last Chicago meet and the asking prices was somewhat higher than I was willing to pay as I have a decent supply of these trucks "In stock"  for future projects. 

Yes, the drive components do seem to be in demand and sell well - I have seen entire drives sell for more than entire engines.  Would seem to suggest that re-powering or powering other items remains a healthy practice and that the body shells are of marginal real value, and maybe even a detriment to selling the drive units.

There was also a traction freight trailer line from All-Nation (Zimmer?) that might be slightly attractive - those kits tend to sell better that the regular freight car kits.  There were also some South Shore kits that also sell well when they surface.  The drawback to all these is that the O scale traction community is small subset of O scale and that limits the market.  OTOH, there's next to zero competition for a source of reasonably affordable kits of such cars.

rrjjf posted:

El,

Last known address of The All Nation Line is:

The All Nation Line

23W546 St Charles Street

Carol Stream, Illinois 60188

Phone No:  630-682-9170

The Owner of All Nation, Bill Pope's son, Danny Pope had tables at the old O March meet in the old hotel location for about two years after Bill passed away trying to sell some AN kits and parts at their last retail pricing schedule.  Not much stuff moved off of his tables as there were plenty of AN kits and parts on other vendors tables selling for a lot less.  It is my understanding that, at one time,  the current owner of the remains of AN wanted around 25K to take the remains of the line from him and had no takers.

I have been told that in the last year or so of production someone working for Bill tried to heat the F-7 dies to speed up production and damaged the dies.  The F-3 unit dies were still OK at the time of Bill's passing.

If someone did purchase this line, they would be faced with using tooling that does not come up to current OSHA safety standards therefore making it difficult to hire competent workers legally to use the tooling.  You could, of course do it all yourself as a sole proprietor and I think that is how Bill operated near the end of his operation of the business.

The original AN diesel kits are composed of pressure diecast Zamac.  In later years Bill started using a soft alloy for items he had ran out of, like the diesel switcher truck sideframes.

The last prices list I have from AN lists the freight car kits at around $40.00 less trucks.  These kits are on ebay all of the time and are found at almost all O scale meets for between $15.00 and $30.00 each.

The Diesel switcher and the F units in various levels of completion from new kit to finished models are also found at these meets and on ebay with regularity, all selling for less than the last AN list pricing.

In my opinion,  the best thing that could be obtained from the old AN line would be their power trucks and power truck components.  I did see some of these for sale at the last Chicago meet and the asking prices was somewhat higher than I was willing to pay as I have a decent supply of these trucks "In stock"  for future projects.

Now, all this being said, I wish you well in your attempt to revive this line.  As someone said above, the AN line was one that kept O Scale 2 rail alive through the 1960s and early 1970s and I still build their kits.

Joe Foehrkolb

 

 

Thanks for that address. The models I am interested in mainly are the cars, but if I got the chance to acquire/lease a few decent engine dies, I probably wouldn't hesitate to do so and offer them in 2 and 3 rail. 

What I am gathering from the information supplied is that Pope has the Diesel engines and the cars, and somebody else has the steam engine dies. Is that correct? What is the contact information for the person with the steam engine dies?

El Classico posted:

  What is the contact information for the person with the steam engine dies?

B.T.S. has the steam engine line as purchased from Babbitt several years ago.

http://www.btsrr.com/

Uh...should you call "Chicagoland Hobbies" off of Touhy...is that the shop that might know about All-Nation dies?  This old history, of what was once made, is very interesting, as it hints of what might be out there, that you can use....and isn't the redundancy of the same few prototypes from the few new molds.

I'll try Chicagoland. I will probably not end up attempting anything with the old Babbitt dies, as they are in decent hands (even if not currently in use yet). 

mwb posted:

El Classico posted:

  What is the contact information for the person with the steam engine dies?

B.T.S. has the steam engine line as purchased from Babbitt several years ago.

http://www.btsrr.com/

Website says locos on hold for brain surgery in 2013. I hope that went well.

Well, I would buy them at $25/kit without trucks and couplers.  But if you do it, try to get good end castings, like Walthers did originally.  Those are the ones I buy on the used market.  Good luck in your endeavor.

If someone was to retrieve the tooling, my suggestion would be the power trucks, the freight sprung trucks, the six wheel passenger trucks, north shore kits, updates passenger and traction kits (former Walthers).   The detail parts are all with Kiel Line/Scale City designs.  As far as the diesels are concerned.  The switcher is greatly outclassed by the Atlas model.  The F unit dies were damaged by the caster according to a conversation I had with Bill Pope.  The B-units were beyond repair and the A unit was needing refreshing.  So their time is over after 60 years of use.  The F-Unit diesel trucks may have some value.

To be honest, any engines would have been extras. I was looking at cars.

Now I wonder what the final resting place has been for the Athearn kits - last hands that I am aware of that had them was Boxcar Jim.........

I am not one who believes that O Scale is dying, but I believe the market for new kits of this type has been obliterated by the number of such kits on the used market, coupled with the availability of highly accurate plastic models and the cost of low volume production.

Assume the Pope kids want $25K for the box car and passenger car lines.  Assume also that there is a market for such kits at $50 each (about double what they seem to bring on eBay).  Finally, assume the Popes get realistic and sell all for only ten grand.

How many kits do you sell at $50 before you get your initial investment back?

What do you guess it will cost to fill each box with the required parts?  Subtract that from the $50.  Then tell me this makes sense.

I am not really part of the market - I have ten unbuilt kits awaiting some construction date in the distant future.

Depends on if sold as kits, or sold built.

bob2 posted:

What do you guess it will cost to fill each box with the required parts?  Subtract that from the $50.  Then tell me this makes sense.

The box costs about 85 cents,

bob2 posted:

I am not one who believes that O Scale is dying, but I believe the market for new kits of this type has been obliterated by the number of such kits on the used market, coupled with the availability of highly accurate plastic models and the cost of low volume production.

Assume the Pope kids want $25K for the box car and passenger car lines.  Assume also that there is a market for such kits at $50 each (about double what they seem to bring on eBay).  Finally, assume the Popes get realistic and sell all for only ten grand.

How many kits do you sell at $50 before you get your initial investment back?

What do you guess it will cost to fill each box with the required parts?  Subtract that from the $50.  Then tell me this makes sense.

I am not really part of the market - I have ten unbuilt kits awaiting some construction date in the distant future.

Whether Tis nobler in the mind to have lived long and prospered without living, or be but a brief candle whose life hath much vigor.

El,

I have assembled many AN boxcar kits over the past 40 years.  Time spent on assembling a kit is about 10 hours including painting to match the pre-printed sides.  More time is spent if the kit is un-decorated and requires decal application.  (Good luck finding matching paint today).   Walthers passenger car kits, properly assembled can easily eat up 20 hours of hobby time.  These model kits are not made to be assembled by someone that wants to recoup there time at any reasonable pay scale.  The kits are for hobbyists to spend their hobby time on.  Most "modelers" today do not want to spend their time building kits like these.  I happen to like doing this kind of construction so I purchase these kits from time to time when I see them.  The past batch I purchased was about 20 AN boxcar kits, with AN Sprung trucks included for $10.00 each.  I built about 14 of them over the summer months two years ago and sold the duplicates un-assembled that were already in my collection.  Regarding value of these kits at a "O meet" Bob T is telling it like it is.

Regarding the use of Walthers passenger car trucks, Keil Line Models, now Scale City Designs, improved the Walthers passenger car trucks by adding brass bushings in the sideframes for the axles to roll in.  Without these bushings, the trucks are not worth using as the soft metal bearings quickly eggs out in operation.   I have made my own brass bushings for these trucks and machined blunt axles for  the wheels.  Once those changes were made the trucks became dependable and good rollers.  The Walthers pointed axles that came with these trucks flopped around in the truck sideframes.

The old All Nation 6 wheel Pullman trucks were pressure diecast Zamac with blunt axles and roll freely and will outlast their builder.  Unfortunately in later years these were cast in a softer alloy.  Same problem as the Walthers trucks mentioned above.

Someone told me DesPlaines Hobbies obtained the AN freight car trucks.  I have not confirmed this as I have a good supply of these trucks picked up at various meets.  Last list price was about $22.00/pr for the sprung Bettendorf truck kit.  I still find them at meets for around $10.00/pr.

A set of four NWSL 33" wheels on axles will set you back about $18.00 retail today.  I don't know of any other supplier of steel O scale wheel sets today.

Again, I wish you well in trying to revive this line but I don't see the financial viability of it.

Best regards,

Joe Foehrkolb

rrjjf posted:

A set of four NWSL 33" wheels on axles will set you back about $18.00 retail today.  I don't know of any other supplier of steel O scale wheel sets today.

 

You generally can find sets of 4 Intermountain wheelsets for under $10 at most of the larger meets still.

Bill Davis has tables full of just trucks at both the Indy and Chicago meets - many very reasonably priced sprung trucks (old metal Athearn) up to the $45+ per pair level that I rarely indulge in....

As Joe described, there is a very real time variable involved in assembling these kits as they were intended and then if you want to dress them up, re-detail with better parts and castings, add all of the underbody plumbing - more time yet. 

I haven't built an AN or Athearn kit in many years - did a Walthers kit a few months back - I'm more likely to just start building from a pile of sticks, a pile of castings and packs of detail parts, and a bad grainy photo or a just an idea vs. building a kit these days.  Then again, I can see in the projects queue a stack of partially built Ambroid kits, all of the same car - oh, joy......  Fire up the assembly line Mr. Ford....

Martin,

I believe Intermountain wheels are plated brass.  Nothing wrong with them, I have used them and they are fine but they have pointed axles and will probably n ot work well in older cast truck sideframes that were made for blunt axles.

Joe

1st I've ever heard that, Joe.  Then again, I've never had a reason to look,

That is a problem though - no other source of the blunt end wheelsets.  Ran into that myself recently on a set of sideframes that I wanted to put under a car.  Again, they can be found at Chicago or Indy for the individual project w/o problem, but if you were looking to go into business, there's another potential hurdle.

thank you guys for all the info you've shared.  I did need some of it when I sold the Atwater/ A-N parts as I was asked a couple of questions I would not have been able to fully answer. Happy railroading to everyone!  

Thank you for the history lesson for those of us who love the models but grew up after they were in their prime.  I still feel a nicely assembled and detailed AN F unit holds its own quite well and will pull the house down.  I personaly prefer the older, diecast models over the modern plastic models packed with electronics.  Filling the room with Ozone is one past time I enjoy.  Brings back memories of my childhood Lionel trains, and of watching the Indy based Unaffialited O scaler's layout at shows back long before I understood what scale O was.  I just remember the smells and sounds, hot oil and ozone!   While the market for kit engines is mostly gone, I hunt them down.  Just bought an F3 at the Indy meet and its getting built right now.  Anybody got one of the CLW drives with the brass trucks to fit these that needs a new home.  The F3 came with a AN duel drive(both trucks powered thru towers) and its not gonna match speed with my CLW powered F7.  That or dummy wheel sets so I can make it unpowered.   Mike