Britain running first timetabled steam passenger service in 50 years!

That's great news. I always liked Tornado. That line is beautiful. Does anyone know who used to own it? LNER? GWR? LMS? 

- Joe

Somerset County 4-H Trainmasters, Independent Hi-Railers Eastern Division,

Ocean County Society of Model Railroaders, Raritan River Chapter of the NRHS,

METCA

 

"What you don't make, take." 

Rusty Traque posted:
Kent Loudon posted:

Amtrak, what are you waiting for ?

Seriously?

Amtrak has enough problems keeping it's funding and a steam locomotive's not going to help.

Rusty

Why not?  It just might attract some ridership.

Frisco, MoPac, and T&P near Rolla, MO

Dear Joe and others,

The Tornado was built in 2008 via a huge fund raising effort across the United Kingdom. The design was based on the LNER A-1 Peppercorn class 4-6-2.

Similar efforts are underway to produce a PRR T-1.

John P. Dunn Sr.

It's a former LMS (London Midland & Scottish) line, originally built by the Midland.

BTW, this may the first time this line has had scheduled steam, but I think British Rail (or whatever it's called now) has run steam on regular passenger trains on the Ft.William to Mallaig line a number of times in the past - usually they do it for a week or two during the summer?

No reason you couldn't do it here. Amtrak would not have to buy steam - British Rail doesn't own Tornado, it's just some type of loan / lease whatever. Anyway, it would be fun to see the Empire Builder being pulled from the Twin Cities to Chicago and back for a few days with Milwaukee 261 for example. Think of the publicity it would generate - worldwide!

- Stix

In the UK they ended the nationalization of the railways by dividing up the equipment/right of way. The government owns and maintains the tracks and infrastructure just like we do here with the highways. Anyone can apply to operate over the tracks just like you can drive your car or truck on the highways subject to regulations of course. That's why you see so many more steam operations there.

Scotie posted:

In the UK they ended the nationalization of the railways by dividing up the equipment/right of way. The government owns and maintains the tracks and infrastructure just like we do here with the highways. Anyone can apply to operate over the tracks just like you can drive your car or truck on the highways subject to regulations of course. That's why you see so many more steam operations there.

Plus, their society is not near as litigious as ours!

In the UK, they have a very similar requirement to the FRA teardown.  I believe they call it a "boiler ticket", and I've heard any timeframe from 10 to 15 year periods.  

From film and video I've seen, the process for inspection and all is very similar if not exact to what is done here to certify it safe to be put back into service.

"Maybe someday, you'll be an Engineer for the Santa Fe!" - in a note to me sent with a P.R. package from the Santa Fe railroad.

Eddie Marra posted:

In the UK, they have a very similar requirement to the FRA teardown.  I believe they call it a "boiler ticket", and I've heard any timeframe from 10 to 15 year periods.  

From film and video I've seen, the process for inspection and all is very similar if not exact to what is done here to certify it safe to be put back into service.

Plus, in order to satisfy the British Rail performance & reliability standards, each steam locomotive, that desires certification for main line operations, MUST complete a certain number of "trouble free" trips, with an appropriate train, at MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE TRACK SPEED. Thus, the Tornado has had to make quite a number of SUSTAINED trips at 90 MPH, in order to satisfy BR.

Hot Water posted:
Scotie posted:

In the UK they ended the nationalization of the railways by dividing up the equipment/right of way. The government owns and maintains the tracks and infrastructure just like we do here with the highways. Anyone can apply to operate over the tracks just like you can drive your car or truck on the highways subject to regulations of course. That's why you see so many more steam operations there.

Plus, their society is not near as litigious as ours!

Oh yes it is!

 The Settle and Carlisle line was an extraordinarily expensive venture built by the Midland Railway to compete for traffic between England and Scotland via Carlisle.  In a sense it was similar to the ill fated USA venture of the Milwaukee Road's Pacific extension.

The London & Northwestern had a much more favorable route along the west coast and served Manchester as well. I've always felt that the L&NW was the British equivalent of the Pennsylvania RR.

In any event, in 1923 the railways of the UK were rationalized and 4 great systems were created--LMS, Great Western, London & Northeastern and the Southern.

The LMS included the old L&NW and Midland.  Following the merger, the Settle and Carlisle became a secondary main line and over time lost most of what little traffic it had.  There were several attempts to abandon some or all of it but they failed.  Because of its fierce grades and tunnels it has always been a railfan's favorite. 

 

Lew Schneider

 

 

Hot Water posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Cool. Makes me wonder if the Hudson Steam project is still going to be motivated by this?

What "Hudson Steam project"?

Exactly what it sounds like. Right around the same time frame the Tornado was being built(1994-2008) a group was formed with the idea of making a new Hudson Steam Locomotive. I can't remember if the group has gone through different names or titles, but do remember seeing a message board or forum where they had been discussing things. I do know that at some point in time after the Tornado was built, that someone had suggested that perhaps the builders could do a Hudson if they were given all the specs and such as well as the money to build it. Most of everything I have heard about the Hudson group seems to be stuck with planning and no real action(not sure if it is because of the money needed to be raised, or other things).

Well Dave, I've been involved in the railroad motive power business, both steam and diesel, for more than 53 years, and must admit that I NEVER heard of that "group". I am aware of, and have assisted, the group working towards manufacturing a NEW PRR T-1 class 4-4-4-4 duplex. They have all the drawings and technical data, and have already produced at least one cast driver center.

In my opinion, a Hudson, would NOT be a practical steam locomotive for today's excursion operations, as it would not be capable of handling a train large enough to generate ticket revenue. Steal locomotives with eight drive wheels are pretty much a necessity for today's main line steam excursions.

Hot Water, the Tornado is a 4-6-2 has less tractive effort that the Hudson and the T-1. The K-4 has more tractive effort than the Hudson, and they are trying to restore that. Strasburg has a number of locomotives too that are probably in between the numbers of all these locomotives mentioned.

I think overall there will always be a draw for steam locomotives however practical or impractical people may believe them to be. It is I would say the romance of a forgotten era that is what draws people to them, much like people to modeling whatever era they choose to.

As far as the Hudson group, I do not know the fate of the group. It is mentioned over on this post from a few years back, but the website is frozen I guess because someone did not pay the bill.

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/nyc-hudson?page=1

The UK preservation movement is much better organized then what we have in the USA, engines are not down for years and years, think PRR 1361, NKP 587 ect.  We could have build a new PRR K4 from the ground up in less time that all the screwing around and buck passing going on there. All parties involved there should be ashamed of themselves, some more than others.  Local museum group's board of directors is in a ****ing match with the owners of the line, they lost and yet they do not step down and try to let the group reboot themselves and regain use of the line.  The whole USA side of rail preservation needs to take a few pages in the operation style of the UK side.  I can hear them blaming the class 1's on not letting them run of being hostile.  But when your group is less that professional, there is no respect and thus no trains running, no money to restore/rehab engines ect.  There are several UK groups that have thier own lines with multipule restored stations and can simulate a complete railway passenger and freight operation.  Lines such as the Bluebell, North Yorkshire Moors ect.  These groups have many operation mainline steam engines, not just one or two.  They have several diesels for when the they do a "diesel days" special.  They host huge galas where many trains are running and festivals at the various depots.  This brings in the funds they need to do what they do.  The whole operation is professional to the "T", this is what will win funding from those with the wallets and desire to see this type of operation continue.  Not the joke of a set up I see most places in the USA that is totally half assed.  There are exceptions, Union RR museum in Illinois, Cass scenic RR, Cumbres and Toltec/Durango & Silverton.   The UK is one place I would love to retire to, just for the much better preserved rail scene.     Mike

Silly NT's...I have Asperger's Syndrome! 

I agree with you completely. Britain's rail preservation is unmatched. Because of that I've taken an interest in UK locomotives. I wonder if anyone makes them in 3 rail O scale? But that aside, one must not forget the Barry Scrapyard in Britain. Countless classes of GWR and LMS heritage were saved and preserved. Not to mention SR, BR and a few others. Although I agree with you on the USA being slow for steam restorations and everything else in general, let us not forget that after the formation of British Railways, steam in Britain lasted until the 1960's whereas here it was basically the beginning of the end by the 1950's. Besides the exceptions that you listed, I would throw in a few others. Strasburg being a big one perhaps? I mean unless we're counting management and not the number of operational locomotives then... But I also like to stick up for my home railroads. I find Black River & Western to be a great tourist railroad. Same goes for Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington. Whippany Railway.... Ehh... MCC 4039 has been going on a for a few years.... Now that RRRR #10's out of there I'm not so much of a fan.. Anyways, my two cents on the issue.

- Joe

Somerset County 4-H Trainmasters, Independent Hi-Railers Eastern Division,

Ocean County Society of Model Railroaders, Raritan River Chapter of the NRHS,

METCA

 

"What you don't make, take." 

Hot Water posted:

 

In my opinion, a Hudson, would NOT be a practical steam locomotive for today's excursion operations, as it would not be capable of handling a train large enough to generate ticket revenue. Steal locomotives with eight drive wheels are pretty much a necessity for today's main line steam excursions.

Build two Hudsons and double head them.................

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