Calling Train America EOB Experts

You might contact Mike Reagan at his new company. Nobody would know more about the TAS system than he would. 

It is my understanding their is a person here that makes a unit called a Super Chuffer board which should take care of this problem..... I have installed one for a friend in a K line Allegheny that had continuous smoke and it works great... The EOB board might just be like the K line and some Lionel and not have chuffing

NelsonW posted:

The EOB board might just be like the K line and some Lionel and not have chuffing

Actually, the EOB board does support all of that, just can't seem to convince this particular board to do so.   The old one does all the functions, it just has several problems and craps out when it warms up.

Hot Water posted:

You might contact Mike Reagan at his new company. Nobody would know more about the TAS system than he would. 

I did ask about some TAS issue some time back and Mike wasn't really interested in opening old wounds, I guess he's moved on.

No expert here but I have worked with a few. Have you tried this key sequence?

Yes, multiple times.  

I can select the chuffs with no issues, and everything sounds perfect.  I also went through the adjustment sequence to set the master chuff rate, that went as expected.  The only thing that doesn't work is I can't get the chuffing smoke, it just runs the fan continuously.'

All of the commands give the expected responses, including the toggle between steam and diesel fan operation.  The fan also stops when I turn off the smoke, so I know the board is able to control the fan.

They only puff ay low speed then its constant. I have a manual of you need one.

Rod Miller

I have the manuals, several versions.  This board doesn't chuff at all at any speed, just continuous smoke.  The old board (which craps out frequently) chuffed fine when it was working.  The two boards look to be identical, so I don't know why this one won't configure for the chuffing smoke.

Recalling some conversations I had with Mike R when TAS was in business, I remember him saying that MTH had a patent on software generated smoke chuffing.  TAS could include that feature in EOB's that they sold as upgrades, but EOB's used by train manufacturers could not include the chuffing feature.  I recall him changing a chip in my Atlas 0-6-0 so it would chuff smoke.  I don't personally know whether any Weaver steam locos with EOB have chuffing smoke or not.  I know that 3rd Rail began to use a cam on axle system for smoke.

Oh, MY!  I think you just answered the question!  This was a board out of an Atlas diesel, and I don't have an upgrade board.  That makes perfect sense, it loves the commands, just doesn't do anything with them.  I suspect the era of having access to the correct chip for this one is long since past.   Sadly, one of the issues with the old board is the uP chip flakes out after it gets warm...

Interesting Bob. I always wondered why most 3rd Rail engines used cams and switches in their EOB engines. Is the chip that Atlas swapped out in a socket or soldered in or don't yiu know?

Pete

Pete, it almost has to be the socketed PIC processor I would imagine.

I do remember buying one or two Turbo Smokes that had the Puff n Chuff feature built into it. It could be set up for diesel mode too. I can poke around tonight in my stash and see if I have one still.

Yes, it was the PIC that Mike swapped out. 

I do remember this being mentioned in the past, but I never personally ran across the issue.  I think most of the boards I was dealing with were upgrade boards, I never had a chuff issue.  However, it certainly explains why the Atlas one won't chuff!

There must have been a time when EOB chuff generators were used by some 3rd parties. The 3rd Rail NYC Mohawks have keystroke selectable chuff and puff with EOB, no cams or switches.

Pete

John I have a new in the box Puff N Chuff board I never used. Send me and email if you want to make a swap for a break on one of yours.

Here's the one I have with the puffing action:

Steve, if John doesn't want it, I'll buy it! 

You got it Norm. We'll see if John if John wants it first.

I don't know if the Puff-n-Chuff board really solves my problem.  I have the TAS smoke unit like the one Norm pictured, the issue is that it requires a chuff signal from somewhere.  Currently with the bad board, it gets it from the EOB fan output signal, there is no other provision for generating the chuff.  One of the few boards I don't have any documentation for is the TAS Puff-n-Chuff, but I would assume it has to get a chuff signal from somewhere. as well.

I could solve the problem by adding a ton of hardware, specifically my Chuff-Generator and Super-Chuffer, but the object of the exercise is to get it working without putting a lot more hardware and expense into it.

Steve Musso posted:

John I have a new in the box Puff N Chuff board I never used. Send me and email if you want to make a swap for a break on one of yours.

Steve, if you could post the documentation for that it would be appreciated, I'd like to see how it's used.

I think I have one of these smoke units as well. Never thought much about how they work but would suspect the added circuitry does more than just provided regulated voltage to the fan motor. More likely its a buffer for the chuff signal so it doesn't interfere with the chuff input on the radio board or audio board.

Pete

I have a K-Line diesel deconstructed.  A few years ago I posted pictures of "what's in here?" and I think you replied that it is a TAS EOB.  If I remember correctly.  If it is an EOB, it is certainly an upgrade.  The engine does not currently have a smoke unit and I wouldn't use smoke on a diesel if it did.  We could swap boards or pic chips. If you are interested, I can post pictures tonight for you to verify. If you want to swap I'd be most comfortable just sending the whole board and let you do as you please as I do not have a chip puller handy. 

Much as I appreciate the offer, I wouldn't want to start taking apart your working locomotive electronics.  If the wheels fall off, I'd have two dead locomotives that I had to fix!

John, someone did post the Turbosmoke manual in the TMCC docs thread. I believe this is the right manual for the TAS unit that was sold as aftermarket, not the OEM ones. There's probably some good clues in it though.

The Chuff-n-Puff board is different than the Turbo-Smoke, at least it sure looks like it.  The Turbo-Smoke is one I posted, it's documenting the actual smoke unit, but it doesn't mention the separate Chuff-n-Puff board.

I have three of these in my parts box, they're labeled Smoke Unit Circuitry, I believe they were to make a dumb smoke unit smart.

Then there's this TAS combo, not sure what this is...

Bottom pic looks like power supply and older PnC? I think I remember remember getting away with using Lionel's 8057 5V power supply to run the PnC. 

Upper pic looks like PnC with power supply built in.

Like I mentioned earlier, some of the TAS OEM smokers (like the ones found in Atlas diesels) were fixed speed and the Turbosmoke you could buy from them had the steam or diesel mode selectable with the jumper. Going by foggy (pun maybe intended) memory here.

I'll send it to you when I get home later today.

I have some TAS smoke units that have jumpering that is different than the Turbo Smoke unit, they were out of 3rd Rail diesels.  I don't have documentation that specifically addresses those.

Does anyone have documentation for the Puff-n-Chuff?  Where does it get it's chuff signal, it's not available on the EOB board, there's only a chuff input.  Does the Puff-n-Chuff decode the serial data?

I see a four pin connector under the R2LC that says ground smoke, chuff, fan. There is a similar 3 pin connector on the SAW board that says fan (TAS smoke unit). I assume both of them would go to the fan input on the smoke unit.

It implies the chuff switch signal passes through the SAW board to the fan and wouldn't violate the MTH aggreement. The fan pin on EOB may only work on the upgrade version of the board as its generated by the tach pulse count.

Pete

Pete, the chuff is an input on the EOB board.  You are correct, apparently the fan pin on the OEM board is strictly on/off.

John, I am referencing the diagram in the EOB complete installation manual. It shows a 4 pin connector with both a chuff in and fan out pin. Does the OEM board not have this same 4 pin connector? I can believe on the OEM board the fan pin may be inactive but would be surprised it it actually had a different connector. Maybe not.

Pete

I know Pete, the fan out runs continuous on my board whenever the smoke is on.  The chuff input is an input.  If you're alluding to something else, I'm not sure what point you're making.  The OEM board appears incapable of generating the chuff, which is why I'm having a problem.

Here's the PNC instruction sheets.

Way back when EOB first came out. The EOB board could produce the chuff for a fan smoke unit(The fan output on that four pin connector in the diagram).  In fact if you look at my YouTube videos you'll see a 3rdrail niagara with this setup.

anyway soon after MTH pattented the same technology (Used in PS2/3 engines) used to create the chuffing and threatened to sue TAS if they did not remove it from the EOB board.(From what my understanding is from 15 years ago).  So at some point Mike changed the firmware in the EOB to remove the feature.  You could ad it again by installing a turbo smoke unit and using the chuff trigger line.   So if you want to use the chuff output from the EOB to the smoke fan you will need to find the first run firmware chip.  Good luck with that.  Unless the firmware chip in your junk board is still good.

Just a thought (which at my age now can be dangerous) if the original one works but fails after it gets warm. Why not just add an IC heatsink using thermal tape. Same as used on PC video cards.

Now back to my regular scheduled nap...

Steve Musso posted:

Here's the PNC instruction sheets.

Thanks, I think I'll add that to my TAS documentation in the document thread here, I posted most of the other TAS stuff, just never had this particular document.

superwarp1 posted:

So if you want to use the chuff output from the EOB to the smoke fan you will need to find the first run firmware chip.  Good luck with that.  Unless the firmware chip in your junk board is still good.

Sadly, it's the chip that is the issue, though I suspect an issue with the board as well.  Finding one seems like the impossible dream.  I actually had one some time back, but I used it in a board that was dead.

NelsonW posted:

Just a thought (which at my age now can be dangerous) if the original one works but fails after it gets warm. Why not just add an IC heatsink using thermal tape. Same as used on PC video cards.

That thought crossed my mind.  However, there are two reasons.

• This is a customer's locomotive, and I don't know for sure that would solve the problem totally.  I want to fix this once, I really hate to get boomerang repairs.
• There is no clearance over the IC, and there's also no clearance at the top of the tender for the boards.  That means I can't really put anything vertically on the IC, and I can't raise the R2LC either.

Go ERR it is like back fitting a PS-2 5V with less information on the way it works sticking with TAS:-)  The whole chuff versus no chuff is with OEM is what I also was told.  G

I suspect you're right George, that seems to be what's happening.  I'm working on getting a steam TAS EOB board, that seems to be the low pain method of fixing this.

Well, the saga continues.  The other comments were correct.  I finally got the word from the horse's mouth, I talked to Mike Reagan.  Apparently, finding the EOB board with the early version of the software is probably not going to happen, only a very few were shipped.  Obviously, the one I have that croaked was one of the select few.

I did find out that there is a digital chuff signal on pin 23 of the RailSounds audio board, that's how the EOB generates it's chuff.  I had thought they did it with the serial data, but that's not so.  So, if I find a Chuff-n-Puff board I can install that.  I can also install a Super-Chuffer, so I may yet have a path out of the weeds.