can anyone identify this? O, 3-rail, unpainted brass, 1950s locomotive

These were made in Japan in the 50's. Both three and two rail. The trucks were crude at first but got better. They made a number of different electric locomotives and maybe even a steam engine. Track, and switches were offered. Lots of American GI's bought them. I have converted a number of them with K-line running gear. Don't know the name of the company but they might have been sold under different names. Hope this helps. Don

IMP - International Model Products - was the importer.  Built by KTM.  You can find them in steel as well every so often

Imported several Japanese prototype boxcabs in the 50's in both 2- and 3-rail formats; a steeple cab, and an array of freight cars most in RTR or kit form.

Don't recognize the pickle vat car..... all metal?

The style of the pickups look like the ones I had some "International Models" locos I had back in the 70s.    I had 2  0-4-0s, one with tender and one saddle tank.   Both were based on the B&O prototypes.    I have also seen pacifics and atlantics by this company.     Another clue is to look at the axle bearings, especially drivers.   I can't tell from the photos what they are like.    All the ones I have seen did not have bearings.   The axles were just mounted in holes bored in a brass channel frame.

Wow - thank you so much for your responses, gentlemen. I'll put some of the rest of the story out there, and maybe you can help me determine what information to trust. Because a number of you seem to affirm the family account that these are Japanese (Grandpa was indeed an officer in MacArthur's occupation from 1947-1952; Mom was 12 when she and her family joined him there). But I contacted John Gurdak of uncledavesbrass.com, who has been importing Tenshodo apparently forever and ought to know; but I think he took one look at the 3-rail design and dismissed the claim out of hand. But Mom remembers many conversations between her dad and her brother about this collection, frequently when the trains were in operation on the tracks. She says her dad used the word Tenshodo frequently, and never any other.

So your responses prompt a few questions for clarification, if you can bear with me a little longer.

Don: "The trucks were crude at first but got better." On the premise that these date from 1951 or earlier (they came home in January '52), your statement implies the trucks would be "crude." They look pretty sophisticated to me, compared to Lionel for example, but I'm not about to try and disassemble them. Could you offer a little more detail on what you meant by that? He has a lot of track sections and a few switches too, but I don't know how to tell them apart from anything out of Walthers for that period. They're all identical to each other which tells me they're all from one source and one moment in time. Thank you...

MWB: I gather yours were imported from Korea? Is that KTM? I've read that the emphasis shifted from Japanese to Korean makers once GIs started bringing them home... And yes, the freight car is all brass, vats and wires and all; but Mom and I suspect Grandpa of having painted the labels himself    Otherwise the paint I would guess is original because even though it's well worn, it's not flaking badly the way some of the lighter-weight, unphotographed cars are.

PRRJim: "Another clue is to look at the axle bearings, especially drivers." Could you tell me a little more please? What would the presence of axle bearings tell me? Is it possible to tell without taking it all apart? Each axle appears to fit into a simple bore hole in the structure outward of the drive wheel upon closer examination but I'm not sure I'm looking at the right detail... if there were bearings in the wheel, for example, they'd be tiny and hidden... The drive wheels won't turn by hand beyond a half degree of play, if that says anything.

Oh... and about the electrical equipment. The 2 transformers look like guaranteed instant electrical fires to me, and they weigh a ton. Is there any reason to hold onto them, or are there collectors of such things who would keel over dead if I did that? (I wouldn't want that on my conscience!) There's also a huge variable resistor from Yagi****a in its original box, that looks like it was manufactured yesterday. It's a 2"-diameter cylinder, one inch high, painted dark green. Does anyone still care about that sort of thing?

Thanks again--

John A

Oh, good grief... Automatic censors who think they know better than we do, what we're trying to write.  That's Yagi-sheet-a, written in Japanese...

Ok, looking at yours, my comment about bearings only applies to the lead/trailing truck.   I was thinking the steam loco models I have seen.      It is not so clear on the box cabs.   The vertical motor/worm also looks like IMP to me.    

I never heard of tenshodo being connected with O Scale.   KTM was the big builder for years and there were others not as prominent such Toby.     In the 50s, a lot of this stuff was done both 2 rail and three rail.    

KMT was in Japan; was a prolific source of imported brass for decades.  Definitely IMP though as I have had this ED1618 box cab in my shop and a host of the ED144 engines and a few of the others; still have a few laying about in my shop waiting to be re-powered along with at least a pair of the steeple cabs to be re-powered....  Yes, IMP also imported a line of steam engines - terrible stamped frames w/o any bearings for the axles to ride in.....  If you go back to the 50's issues of RMC you'll find the advertisements for all these items.

Yes, the trucks for the electrics early on were a tad crude - stamped metal that moved forward to soldered up brass.  Big issue with almost all of these electric engines is the end bearings on the exterior of the trucks being a lower quality white metal that tends to disintegrate over time. 

That vat car remains a mystery to me -- although the coupler box resembles other early KTM work so I have to wonder if it also is a KTM product despite not having seen one before.  Early IMP/KTM stuff actually has a metal label inside "Made in Occupied Japan".  Might look for that....

mwb posted:

KMT was in Japan; was a prolific source of imported brass for decades.  Definitely IMP though as I have had this ED1618 box cab in my shop and a host of the ED144 engines and a few of the others; still have a few laying about in my shop waiting to be re-powered along with at least a pair of the steeple cabs to be re-powered....  Yes, IMP also imported a line of steam engines - terrible stamped frames w/o any bearings for the axles to ride in.....  If you go back to the 50's issues of RMC you'll find the advertisements for all these items.

Yes, the trucks for the electrics early on were a tad crude - stamped metal that moved forward to soldered up brass.  Big issue with almost all of these electric engines is the end bearings on the exterior of the trucks being a lower quality white metal that tends to disintegrate over time. 

That vat car remains a mystery to me -- although the coupler box resembles other early KTM work so I have to wonder if it also is a KTM product despite not having seen one before.  Early IMP/KTM stuff actually has a metal label inside "Made in Occupied Japan".  Might look for that....

 

There was a cast brass engine that was similar that I identified wrongly as this one based on a 1950 MRR ad. Try locating that thread and the ad I posted in it.

Are there any web sites with information on IMP?

I ask because I have a few IMP signals, and a bunch of bagged light bulbs marked IMP.

KTM was a builder of brass models in Japan that over a long span of years were imported by several US firms.  International Model Products (IMP)  I believe was the first, followed by Max Gray, US Hobbies, Westside, and lastly KTM itself.  The quality of construction and level of detail improved markedly over the years.  The IMP branded KTM locomotives were lightly regarded due to poor performance.  A neighbor in the late 1950's had a rather complete "virgin" collection of IMP freight cars and I recall when we opened the boxes the models were packed with straw.

  As the models you described were purchased in Japan, they probably did not come in an IMP labeled box) - but could be quite similar or identical to models imported and sold in the US by IMP.  The Tenshodo brand was most notably associated with a line of HO brass models imported by Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) in the late 1950's and 60's.  But I understand that Tenshodo also operated a hobby shop in Tokyo frequented by US troops.  Perhaps that was where your grandfather purchased his models, and thus his branding them Tenshodo's.

I picked up an ED144 model by IMP a number of years ago converted to run on outside 3rd Rail.  It is a fun item to have in my collection.  I haven't run it, but it is rather complete.  Nice products for the time period.  Note that the drawing shows it at 17/64" scale which is true O scale based on O track spacing. 

The prototype for this actually ran on a Japanese narrow gauge electric rail line.

Nice find for your collection!

GG1 4877 posted:

Note that the drawing shows it at 17/64" scale which is true O scale based on O track spacing. 

I had neglected to mention that detail - 17/64th's -- these models sit a little large depending on what you put behind them....

John, their brass casting parts were bad early on. I wonder if the pickle car started life as a box car and is home made. Here is some of my collection of locos. Don

What's that center cab work flat(?) in the barn in the 2nd photo??

MWB, somehow I knew you were going to ask that. I think it's from an old, old Q car kit. GE 50 ton Class I electric. The box doesn't say who made it but I'm sure it's theirs. I've got most of it finished but just have to much to do on the layout to work on it now. Someday I'll get around to it. This is the one I want to put a Williams 44 toner running gear in. Don

I'm so grateful for everyone's input. It's all fascinating to me, and it all prompts more questions. 

Ed, I think you've nailed it; your suggestion fits all the facts I have and all the apparently conflicting bits of information I've been hearing. Grandpa absolutely did visit the Tenshodo store in Tokyo and that's where this stuff came from. Most of it, at least... Thanks! I was hoping he'd weigh in by now but I found a separate post by another member from a few years ago where he attached an image of an IMP ad that happens to show a nearly identical engine. Identical, except shorter without the front or rear trucks. It's just, the image is too small to make out anything except the biggest print. It says BB-1 but I don't know what that means.

Can anyone tell me what KTM stands for? And what's the significance of ED 1618? MWB, you called it a "box cab;" I'm not familiar with that term...? My only guess right now is, this is a replica of an engine used somewhere, for something, on the Japanese National Railway we were helping them rebuild. That's something that would've interested him greatly.

I first thought this was a streetcar; I'd never seen an engine with so many windows. Maybe that's part of the box cab explanation? MWB, I wonder if you can tell from the photos if any of those trucks are stamped or cast or not? I don't know what I'd be looking for. The wheels themselves appear to be cast; the structures that hold the axles is soldered but I think you can see that in the photos. I'm just wondering if they'd be on the "crude" end of the spectrum. It's ok if they are; I'm just curious about it. I can tell you that it was a bit tricky to place the vat car on the track for the photo; as soon as I could get the last wheel to sit right, another would slip sideways.

As far as that car goes, Scale Rail, I doubt very much it was altered. He might've had the skill set for that, as he worked in radio equipment, but I well remember the dollhouse and the toy baby carriage he made for my mom. Neither of them demonstrate the kind of finesse and precision the vat car has, and there's no evidence of anything having been removed. And he spent much more time on his photography, night classes, boating, radio transmissions, and other hobbies than on his trains. Any changes he made would've been purely "field-expedient" as we'd say in the army. Vats would've been made from trimmed soup cans rather than finely crafted out of delicate brass sheets. As you can see, these vats are perfect fits for the car. I believe they're original.

I find no evidence of a "Made in Occupied Japan" plate on any of the pieces, or evidence that anything like that had ever been there. I have no explanation for that. Maybe the first ones didn't say so?

Do you guys know if there's some sort of spring-loaded trick to extend the pantographs? Mine seem like they ought to have no problem opening but they seem held in place by something.

What would any of you say to the notion of re-soldering the slats decorating the sides of the car, or replacing a short section of missing rail? Would such steps ruin its value? Mostly right now I'm afraid of losing the three slats that are now unconnected at the top join.

Thanks again!

John A

Oh, and I forgot another question... It occurred to me when I saw GG1 4487's images but a few of you probably know. The blueprint says, "An IMP Product." But I thought IMP was only an importer, not a manufacturer. Can anyone clarify? Thanks