Considering an RS-3 to build, good starting point?

"What brand is a good place to start?"

 

     Depends I guess on what kind of layout you plan to build. The Weaver RS 3 models with single can motor are great for slow speed scale running. The Atlas models use two motors and higher speed gearing so are a bit harder to add DCC to and run better at faster speeds. I'd go with the Weaver for branch line or industrial switching type layout and only consider the Atlas if high speed loop running with long trains was planned.

   The very early Weaver locos had a gear box in the floor near the center and are not as reliable as the next version that had twin flywheels and gear towers on both  trucks.  Any old Weaver  you buy might have cracked gears but they are easy to fix and the replacements last a lot longer, I've never had a replaced gear fail...DaveB

Honestly, I am just building a few models up for the fun of it, as a nice change of pace from building Pontiacs.  I may be able to build a small switching layout at some point when my son gets older.  So for the time being, being the most accurate model is the most important thing.

I have an Atlas Trainman RS3. Better than Weaver points are all the wire grab irons, & it has some weight for haulage. To slow it down in 12v DC the motors can be wired in series.
However the hoods are too tall (to allow for the twin vertical motors I think) which shows up because the central cab windows are not deep enough, more rectangular than square. Then the main handrail stanchions are a cheap 'stamped' item instead of seperate, & finish at footplate level at either end, a 3-rail legacy.
So basically the Weaver can be made into a more accurate model, but will still need a fair bit of work. I ended up with an Atlas one because it was cheaper than a Weaver one I'd seen!

"Honestly, I am just building a few models up for the fun of it, as a nice change of pace from building Pontiacs.  I may be able to build a small switching layout at some point when my son gets older.  So for the time being, being the most accurate model is the most important thing."

 

    I'd go with the older edition Weaver in that case since they are proportioned better, and are easy to work on and modify. After market details are available to customize them if you want to model a particular locomotive. Ask the seller if it has a single motor or dual motors and look for the single motor version. Expect to change some split gears when you get ready to run it. Be sure to specify you want a 2 rail loco as many of the old ones for sale are 3 rail versions. I don't know he current prices but when I sold my O locos a few years ago an un-decorated 2 rail was about $100 .......DaveB

Thanks for your input.   $100 sounds like a fair deal to me, and I have my eye on an undecorated one on ebay which is a 2-rail.  (also ready and willing to strip the paint off a decorated one if necessary.)  It also appears to be a single motor version (in an older looking red box) since it has a driveshaft going to each set of trucks from above the fuel tank area.

" It also appears to be a single motor version (in an older looking red box) since it has a driveshaft going to each set of trucks from above the fuel tank area."

 

   That sounds like on of the original versions with the center mounted reduction gear box. They didn't have flywheels on the motor shaft and were improved after a few years by eliminating the central gear box and driving each truck from above with a delrin chain, flywheels were added at this time. The chain sprockets could be swapped out for different tooth numbers to allow choices of gear ratio. The chain drive versions would not have the shafts running to the center, they would have sprockets on the truck gear shaft.....DaveB

If you are looking to build the most accurate model the first thing you need to start with is the blatantly wrong (side) handrail mounting on nearly all of the plastic RS3's.

 

The hand rails are supposed to be mounted on the flat/horizontal surface of the walkway. (like your original red-box one on Ebay).

 

On most models, they are mounted on the vertical frame of the locomotive.  The Atlas Trainman model is blatantly wrong and this was brought up ad nauseam on the old Atlas forum.

 

I would start with an old Weaver twin-tower drive not because the drive can be made superior for slow speed but simply because the bodies have the correct handrail.  This is and was a trademark of ALCOs and to me this matters most. 

 

Of course, YMMV.

probably the best cost-effective and simplest to work on choice would be a Weaver RS3 with twin tower drives. I find this drive to be superior to the end tower with tank driveshaft because it places equal torque to two towers, not one. simple gear upgrades can replace cracked gears and even change the drive ratio is desired.

 

the Weaver body is accurate, and there are plenty of details that can be added to really make a model look great.

 

 

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your input.  Definitely sounds like the weaver is the way to go.  Now to find one in 2-rail with the right motor.

Based on this photo from the ebay auction, I am assuming this is indeed the earlier gear-reduction drive with no flywheels?  Is there much involved to changing these to 2-rail? Just about all currently on ebay are 3-rail.  (might seem like I'm in a hurry, but I'm not!)

 

"Is there much involved to changing these to 2-rail? Just about all currently on ebay are 3-rail.  (might seem like I'm in a hurry, but I'm not!)"

 

   I've never had a 3 rail version so don't know what's involved. One problem might be the pilot, they may have to make a larger hole for a 3 rail coupler? Hopefully someone can give you the information needed. You might try posting a wanted ad in the buy and sell forum and see if anyone here has a spare 2 rail version.You might get lucky and find one that has new gears installed. I could have sold you two a couple of years ago....DaveB

I believe Weaver Models has offered at least 4 versions of the ALco RS-3 in O gauge.   The photo posted by webfoot is a first generation 2 rail Weaver RS-3 with center tower drive and  no flywheel.  If the drive train parts (especially the axle gears) haven't split it should be a smooth runner. Initial Weaver's RS-3 production was 2 rail only (Bob Weaver at the time was an O scale 2 railer.  Bob also produced the Quality Craft line of wood buildings and freight car kits. Seeing the potential for increased sales, Bob redesigned the drive several times to better accommodate tinplate curves.  The first  revised drive had a single truck mounted chain drive end tower with drive shafts through the fuel tank. Later the drive was further revised with two end towers eliminating the drive shaft through the fuel tank.  The current version dropped the single horizontal motor drive in favor of two vertical motors (a.k.a. "China Drive") similar to those found in most 3 rail diesels. It has a swinging pilot and incorrect side mounted handrails.  I don't recall which version first featured flywheels. If I've missed or misrepresented anything in the above narrative please let us know.  

 

Ed

 

 

I just remembered re-powering an RS3 like you guys are talking about.  You can have all your plastic drives this one worked much better (okay, I'm just trying to cause trouble now).

 

 

Jay

Then there was this one.

 

 

Jay

Looks good.  Is this a repower kit or did you fab that up yourself?

Nice drive Jay!  I haven't seen these yet. Always a very clean installation. Your attention to detail is second to none. The dual motored drive is outstanding. From the looks of the side frames is that second repower photo for one of the so called "doorstops" we read about on MTJ?

 

Webfoot, Jay is part of Protocraft. Check out their website for more magic.

 

Jay, which drive would you suggest for a RC GP-9 conversion...single or dual motors?

 

butch

 

 

Webfoot,

 

Not a kit just something I started doing a few, or maybe more, years ago.  The first one is a Weaver.  The second is a brass model (unknown builder & importer) that had HO motors in the trucks.  Way underpowered & noisy.

 

Butch,

 

As always, thanks for the kind words.  I don't post a lot of these things but I was in the mood this AM.

 

The single gear head drive is geared very low & probably only pulls 8 to 10 cars.  The other (twin motor) was caught pulling 30 cars the other day.  My fear is that may be pushing these motors a little too much. 

 

I borrowed an aftermarket brass frame meant for a RC GP from Gene D. with the intent of experimenting with the medium Faulhabers & our 8000 series Pittman gear heads but the plastic shell is so thick the Pittman gear head won't fit.  I was also going to have a bunch of frames made up if the whole thing looked feasible.  Not sure guys would be happy only pulling 20 cars, or so.  We'll see.  We use the spur type gear head from Pittman which is larger in diameter than their planetary type.  We may buy a few of the planetary just to see.

 

Jay

Thanks Jay,

 

20 cars is plenty on a scale layout. Looking for good slow speed performance as well as medium road speeds 30-40 smph.  I've got some of the DP brass frames, but also have several of the Kelly Regan machined aluminum frames on order.

 

I'll be in touch off list to discuss further as I'd like to see what we can do with the newer machined frames from Kelly.

 

butch

FWIW, Here are some other Rs3's-Three rail but still RS3's:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The RSD prior to rewiring & replacing the decoder.  Twin speakers in the hood.

 

 

Jay

Any particular reason for that powered axle arrangement, Jay?  One outer and 1 inner - Interior cab details?

As Keystone Ed mentioned, one consideration is that most later issue, China drive, models have flat bar hand rails. Jay C's picture shows the better detail hand rails, that most likely are RS 3.

 

My recent purchase Weaver RS3 has the flat bar railings.

 

 

There has also been discussion about the side cab windows  2 v.s. 3.

MWB,

 

Over the years I've found, for the most part, the longer the drive shafts the better.  I also believe the ideal swivel point for the drive shaft (universal if you will), is directly over the king pin.  There is far less movement as the truck swings left or right.  Having said that, the Weaver RS was to have cab interior installed and having the drive shaft & tower running through the cab would have been less than ideal.  Getting back to the longer drive shafts, if I'd installed shorter drive shafts the running qualities would have been impaired.

 

Another issue with plastic frames is their fragility & tendency to flex under load.  To mitigate that problem I installed a heavy brass plate under the frame to act as a stiffener.  Bonus was adding overall weight to the loco also.

 

 

Hope at least some of that makes sense.

 

Jay

The points regarding shaft lengths were not being questioned - longer is what I try to achieve whenever possible.  Cab interior is what I suspected and is now confirmed. 

mwb,

 

So a simple, yes would have sufficed?!

 

Jay

Yes.

You can detail them to whatever degree you feel, and make an accurate model of nearly any variant, for instance, say , one of the PRR dynamic brake equipped units assigned to Keating Summit. This "center tower" engine cost me 70.00 on ebay and now runs well. It is getting DCC /Sound, too. No where near done, but you get an idea of what is possible. This is my first modeling attempt beyond helping my older brother with his layout back in the late 1980's

That looks like it is 2 rail