Deposit rethink

The "proper" way to get out of a pre-order is to pay for it and sell it here on the forum or eBay, etc. Don't stiff the dealer with it as it may sit on hist shelf for a very long time. I rarely pre-order but pay for everything I order, except once where some major issues cropped up and I just didn't have the $$ at the time or in the future for it. Fortunately for me and my dealer, he had a customer that missed out on that item and gladly jumped at the chance to get it so it worked out OK. Regardless, stiffing your dealer could damage that relationship that you'll want to keep!

prper etique is to "suck it up" and go through with the transaction. Then if you still don't like it. flip it on this forum or da bay.

 

The next best thing would be to contact the place of preorder and ask. The worst they can say is no - you must buy.

I figured as much.  I will take my lumps, but I will not pre order anything again.  From what I have read on the forum, it looks like the big dealers order extras and items are available after release.

 

 

Candidly speaking, there is no "one size fits all" right or wrong answer here.

 

You should really speak to the dealer and see what can be worked out -- especially if it is a smaller "mom and pop" LHS.  Although regardless of the dealer's size in the industry, I typically order or purchase something else if there is ever a need to cancel a pre-order.

 

Some of the larger dealers have no problem with an occasional order cancellation, and most of the national dealers won't necessarily think that you're "stiffing them" if you need to cancel.  Situations crop up in business all the time, and each one is unique.  It's not the end of the world... Just don't make a habit of canceling.

 

David

RU SURE?? Did you miss the video of the separate sale M1A?

 

You stated " deposit request ", did you put down a deposit on your preorder. If so, the dealer in good faith ordered the item for you, he has no reason to return your deposit. Not the dealers fault that the manufacture is taking forever to produce the item.

We don't require deposits. That said, this set will be high in demand When it ships. Don't be in such a rush to resell it - you'll make money on it..... If you want, when we sell out, I can refer callers to you until you sell it. 

Depending on your relationship with the dealer and the sales volume you have done with him, if it were me (and I have a very good relationship with my dealer), I would call him to see if I could possibly move the deposit to another item.

 

This is a question where one size does not fit all circumstances.

Wouldn't that depend on him finding someone who is willing to buy it without a warranty?

 

As an authorized dealer, you have lots of inquiry's for an item.  If someone buys it from you, they have full warranty privileges. 

 

As a personal seller, if the receipt has his name on it, most manufacturers will not extend the warranty to a new owner, even if the item came out only 4 days ago.

 

Please let me know if there is a flaw in this observation.

 

-Dave

Mike

depending on if I find something at York next week I might have an interest in this set.

Lionel locomotives no longer come with a warranty card in the box for the first owner to fill out and mail to Lionel?

I would never say, I wouldn't Pre Order, but, if I have any idea that I truly would not want the item, I would not pre order. I agree that selling on this Forum is fun and meeting the other collectors with this Addiction is even more rewarding. It boils down to this, IF YOU WANT AN ITEM FOR SURE, YOU, BETTER PRE ORDER. Thats how it is with collectibles in any Hobby. Happy Railroading.....

You can sell it to me at a nice discount.

 

Sure they do, but I don't think most manufacturer's will honor a warranty with just the card (as a result, many people don't bother ever sending them in), most want to have a copy of your sales receipt.  If name on receipt ≠ name on request, you may have a problem.

 

Locomotives are not serialized, and most (all? - anyone have an exception?) cards are generic.  I could pick up a warranty card for a boxcar or electronic component and send it in claiming it was for a Big Boy for which I was the fourth owner. (not that I would ever try to do so)

 

-Dave

Miken, as a starting point, contact the vendor, explain your change in interests, and ask to cancel w/ refund of the deposit.  He may say fine.  If not, ask to move the deposit to another item(s) he may have in stock that you want.  If that doesn't work, do the honorable thing and pay the balance due when the engine arrives.  Good luck. 

I'd buy and think about it.  Tastes may change again, and it ought to be an awesome loco.  Regardless, you made the deal, so I would honor it.  You can ask the dealer.  He or shee might want the loco to resell anyway . . . 

I have the M1B, this is one of my favorites, and one of the best Lionel steamers IMO, not too big, nor too small, nice detail, runs great and can handle freight or passenger trains. I would keep your order in, I think you will love it.

I believe that the length of time between the pre-order and the time of release is the biggest factor concerning honoring the promise to buy the item.  Suppliers and buyers need to establish some kind of ground rules. Is it proper to expect a buyer to wait two or three years for production and delivery of a promised run?   I know that the business of producing high end locomotives has become rather dicey in the current import environment, but suppliers know the risks of offering something that has no time frame for delivery. Consumers know the risks as well, but it is their money and they should have a reasonable expectation of delivery at some date of delivery..even if it is a bit vague. What is reasonable? 6 months?  A year? 18 months? or finding out that the run has been cancelled or just left hanging for ever?

Lives change over two or three years. I think that most suppliers would be willing to accept this fact. Honoring a commitment works both ways.

So this is the state of our current affairs. I think that most of us want to be fair and honor and respect one another, but there are limits to what is acceptable as good business practices. 't

If I ordered a new Chevy and didn't hear from the dealer for a year, do I still want it when it show up?  I guess it depends on how badly I want it.

Well, food for thought. Let us all, seller and buyers, try our best to honor our commitments.

 

Conductor Earl

         

Generally, if you caught it, you clean it - it's just the right thing to do. It is not others'

fault that your tastes have changed.

 

Having said that, a year and a half is a long time, the manufacturer AND the dealer must live in the real world the same as you and are not excused from the consequences of

overly-long lead-times, and at some point you are morally completely justified in canceling

an order for ANY reason. 

 

Where that point is for you I cannot say (1.5 years is approaching it, perhaps?), but such a

point does indeed exist. Certainly it moves, depending on everything.

 

Since when did the saying become "The seller is always right"? 

I feel no qualms if I have to cancel a pre order. Sometimes life happens and you cannot justify the amount of money you are putting out for a toy. You don't want to but it happens. 

 

If ithe dealer wants to get vindictive and never deal with again then so be it. There are others.

 

The people who tell you to man up and just take delivery are wrong. Life sometimes interferes with your best laid plans. But always be sure you want the item before you pre order but if somthing happens and you just can't pay for it, then cancell it and don't look back. 

RickO on a separate note that was a great video on the M1A. 50 drops of smoke fluid? I was wondering how much you put in there to get the wick soaked. Are you using Lionel smoke fluid or JT's Mega-Steam with a needle eye dropper?

I forgot earlier to mention, If a dealer takes a Pre-Order for An engine like The Big Boy, or the Up -Coming Y6B N&W, I would expect a Yes (Committment) on the Pre-Order. If I understand the Program Correctly, The Dealer has to Take the Product no matter what. This could hurt a small business if there were to many cancellations. in Reality, These are Expensive Toys and several Cancellations could really hurt a dealers cash flow. The Dollars have to Turn, and that's also protection for the Manufacturer. Just think, 10 Lionel VisionLine Big Boys, could cause a 19K DISASTER for a Hometown Dealer.  So, There is a time to commit, or not commit.  Happy Railroading......

You made a commitment.Be a Man about it and follow through.Chances are you will be glad you did.Nick

Honestly, Larry, with this BTO stuff nothing is going to sit. It's not much of a risk. 

I am talking about Someone Pre-Ordering an Expensive Engine and afterwards Cancelling his BTO Product. The Dealer, ordering from his Distributor, also makes a commitment. The point I am trying to make, even if the customer chooses to cancel the order, it puts the Dealer on the Spot....I understand the BTO Process, I agree that it's good, I Just wanted to point out that a cancellation could hurt the dealer. Thanks.

 

This is why I never pre order and never will.  Besides, you can wind up waiting way too long for the item anyway.  And if you put down a deposit only for the manufacturer to make a meal out of production then the time value of money sets in.  I hate to say it, but if a lhs has customers backing out of pre orders due to slow delivery time, it's kinda on them as well.  After all, you need to stand behind what you sell.  

As I said, talk to the dealer.  Most are understanding and they want your future business, so they will probably oblige. I fact they may want that pre-ordered item for some customer who didn't get in the deadline and now wishes he or she had.  I think it is good policy though, to always honor your commitments: dealers and others will remember if you don.t

 

Miken,

 

     I would think that any dealer would understand canceling a preorder for a good reason, loss of a job, illness in the family etc. But changing your mind during the waiting period just does not fly. I do not want to sound mean or not understanding but you may of heard model railroading is an adult hobby (although each of us sometimes do not act that way). Please do the adult thing and accept delivery. If you do not like the set when it comes in there is always the buy/sell board. My guess is you will like the set. Remember diesels do not have whistle smoke, it is worth every penny.

 

JohnB

I think my true issue is that I feel the preorder with deposit is a dishonest setup as it is currently practiced. The manufacturers catalog an item for sale. They then ask for a deposit for promised delivery. That deposit may or may not be honored after waiting patiently for 18-23 months. In that time frame the buyers situation may change. So the buyer takes on all risk and estential is providing a no interest loan to the manufactures supplier. A few hundred preorders is tens of thousands of dollars in the hands of the supplier that can be used to buy more product at no cost to them. The manufactures accounting department can figure out when to release a model to better ensure cash flow for their sales to suppliers.

I recently read about people with preorders at a hobby shop that went out of business. Who is "manning up" to repay the deposits. I deal with a large shop, but I don't think that the open ended loans we are making is fair. No other consumer item that I buy is done like this.

As far as changing tastes, two years is a long time and buyers remorse can set in when you see new catalogs, cool used trains and rolling stock, and do research as you build your model railroad empire.

I believe if we are going to loan money, because that is what this is, we should at least get a realistic delivery date to ensure our money is safe, and we can plan our buying appropriately.

I thank you for you thoughts on this, and letting me blow of some steam.

Find a dealer that requires no money down on a preorder.

 

Maybe Mr. Muffin can elaborate, but I don't think the manufacturers "ask"  for a deposit. This is something the dealer chooses to do likely to help solidify the committment.

 

I've never put a deposit on any preorder, never will. There are plenty of dealers that take preorders without out one. i.e. Mr. Muffin, as well as the largest O guage dealer in the country to name a few.

People, keeping a healthy perspective on things is everything here.  MrMuffin chimed in as  a forum sponsor/dealer who walks the walk and talks the talk.  Take his comment to heart.

 

THIS IS NO BIG DEAL.

 

Nobody here is suggesting enthusiasts make a habit of canceling orders.  But occasionally something comes up... circumstances change... and life happens.  You're not partnering with the dealer to run his entire business... It's just one transaction in a sea of MANY.  Keep it in perspective sans the hyperbole.  Most dealers won't even lose a wink of sleep over this -- and some may even expect a few order cancellations from time to time.  It's all part of being in business. 

 

David

If its no big deal, then why require a deposit at all?

No, none of the manufacturers nor distributors require a deposit from the dealers. In some cases when the cancellation comes into the dealer way before shipping, the manufacturer is okay with your adjusting down your order. 

 

The manufactures and distributors do expect payment per the agreement from the retailer on time. If they don't get it, they stop shipping, and the dealer follows the path of Circuit City. Without new stuff, bye bye. 

 

Everything sells in time. But sometimes it takes awhile. We sold an MTH Allegheny set and three MTH Premier Shays this week and they'd been here, NIB, for nine months or so. 

 

The retailer really really needs to have like 8 turns a year on the inventory. That means annual sales/average inventory needs to be 8 or more. The pre-ordered stuff moves really fast; not so much the rest, like track and rolling stock.

 

People come into the layout, learn that I am a college professor and ask what I teach. I like to say " I teach students how to make money, which is not what I am doing here."

 

We have the benefit of running a real estate business out of the same location. They graciously help pay the rent and answer the phones. Without co locating with another business, no way we could do this. With them, it all works out. 

The longest I have ever waited for a pre-ordered train is 4 years. 

 

I find that crazy. Four years is way too long.

 

In the interim years I had moved out of state and moved, downsizing to a small apartment that would not accommodate a layout with curves that could accommodate this train. Four years is not an appropriate amount of time for this kind of thing in my opinion After one year the party's should be allowed out of the deal.

 

 I went through college in 4 years. What if the person who ordered the item died in the interveining years? Should the estate or family be forced to pay for this item? 

 

As a community I feel like we should stop this assumption on the part of importers that this practice is OK.

This gets into an entirely different discussion, but you are correct.  Unfortunately, the complete lack of control as to when stuff actually gets manufactured is probably everyone's (importer, distributor, dealer, enthusiast/consumer) worst nightmare come true.  Even the "suits" who decided 15-20 years ago that all these toys were better made overseas probably never realized how bad the manufacture/labor arrangements would be nowadays.  

 

Some importers have a better handle on this situation than others.  But in general, the trend has been unsatisfactory from a consumer's viewpoint.  The catalogs are more like "wishbooks", and there is sometimes a HUGE disconnect between what is catalog'd and when something gets delivered.  At least we haven't had too many situations where what's been delivered is unacceptably different than what was actually catalog'd.  That's been the one saving grace amidst the frustratingly long waiting periods.

 

Years ago, I joked that there was really just ONE overseas manufacturing facility for toy trains... and depending upon which US executive was in town that week, they'd put a different sign out front. 

 

Today, I envision a different cartoon...  It's one in which a bunch of marketing folks sit around a table tallying all the pre-orders from their latest catalog.  And one guy or gal says to the others, "O gee... we've just received all these orders for product XYZ, now we gotta go overseas and find a company to actually make the darn thing.  Any ideas where we should start looking?". 

 

Somehow, I don't think either scenario was/is all that far from reality. 

 

David 

I pre-ordered a MTH premier diesel over a year ago, and since then I found a cheap non-powered of it on ebay.  I still intend to pay the dealer when it is delivered in a few months, and will probably flip it on the buy/sell board when it comes.

 

I feel that is the right thing to do, even if I lose a few bucks.  But I might make a slight profit, you never know...

If it is a big deal, then why do some dealers not require a deposit?

 

quote:

If it is a big deal, then why do some dealers not require a deposit?

 

Because they trust their customers?