Did the Eastern Division change York soon enough?

I did not notice that the aisles were any wider in Orange, although I did notice some dealers which weren't there.  (Does anyone know what happened to the guy who makes tank farms?)

Noticed a lot more empty tables in the member halls, especially Blue & Silver.

Lots more folks with mobility issues.  Should eliminate one row of tables in each member hall and widen the aisles.

Also did not see as much recent production being blown out - I wonder if the manufacturing volumes are lower.

What makes you think things will be any different in April? Unless someone will be paying to run a lot of "open to the public" advertising, who will show up?

As far as I could see, the aisles, with dealers sitting in them, were still a pain in the neck in the dealer halls. I also noticed a number of people holding up traffic while "playing" with their hand-helds (asking the wife for permission to buy something?). Yes, I noted the lack of, and need for, arrows in the Orange Hall. Seemed pretty much the same York to me since 1984.

Does it really matter if it was soon enough?  If it wasn't there's not much we can do about it now.  I still think we as members of the TCA need to step up and help.

Opening to the public in April isn't going to change much at all if they don't promote promote promote. Radio, TV etc. Even then, you think people are going to travel to the middle of no where for a train swap meet? I just don't see it happening. All the photos I have seen here and all over social media looked like a very thin crowd, no matter the day.

Laidoffsick posted:

 Even then, you think people are going to travel to the middle of no where for a train swap meet? I just don't see it happening. 

Absolutely, 100% agree.  

On an unrelated note, kind of sad to see empty table(s) in the Orange Hall.  

Middle of nowhere?  Maybe folks on the east coast are spoiled.  I've often driven 3.5 hours each way for a good train meet, and I've known people to drive much farther than that.  If you draw a 3 hour circle around the largest train meet on the planet, it includes a lot of people.

I don't know if opening to the public will have the desired results (if anyone can even articulate what the "desired results" are), but you've gotta try.

Time will tell.  I'm sorry to state I was guilty this meet of contributing to one empty table in Red.  I had a large surge in effort at work recently that just didn't let me prepare enough to bring stuff with me to sell.  I did still manage to attend though, so hopefully my purchases helped others a bit.

I heard of a few dealers whining about the extra 2 hours on Saturday, but I doubt for most that will tip the point of them not showing up at all.

-Dave

Businesses in York can't even keep their doors open. I would have no other reason to go and it's 2500 miles away.

Greenberg and other local shows in the area are reasonably well attended, so if 20-30% of those folks make the trip to York it would seem to be a worthwhile effort. Whether the same number of folks can be turned into dues-paying members is another matter...it would seem doubtful.

Maybe I was travelling in a bubble, but it seemed that this York was pretty crowded. I had to drive around for a bit Friday AM to find a parking spot...first time that's happened in a loooong while.

PD

Geez the EDTCA just can't do right by some of you.  Up until 3 years ago it was status quo.  At least this leadership team is trying.  It may not work but they are trying.  Some of you guys should try to run a train meet the size of York and see how easy it is and then have everyone else tell you how to run it.  

They are trying, shouldn't we do our part and promote, encourage, and attend if able?

York will evolve just as the hobby has the past 30 years.  I will go and support it. It is more than a show, it is and has been an event for years. The top 10 percent spend the most money at York , all the big boys better bring more creative layouts to the show if they are trying to lure the public into the hobby,remember the wow of the showroom layouts, what is there now is terrible. Even OGR and its Ameritowne line could create a display that triggers the imagine to build an affordable home layout, not just piles of building kits in a booth. These examples of displays can show the public the apps and at the same time encourage growth of the hobby. The orange hall will need a combination of dealers and layouts to lure and repeat foot traffic on the public days of York. Let it be said,I love York!

dk122trains posted:

 all the big boys better bring more creative layouts to the show if they are trying to lure the public into the hobby,remember the wow of the showroom layouts, what is there now is terrible. Even OGR and its Ameritowne line could create a display that triggers the imagine to build an affordable home layout, not just piles of building kits in a booth. These examples of displays can show the public the apps and at the same time encourage growth of the hobby. The orange hall will need a combination of dealers and layouts to lure and repeat foot traffic on the public days of York.

That I do agree with.  The dealer and manufacturers were the ones asking for this change, rightfully so, but they need to now do their part with displays reminiscent of 5-6 years ago.  The Apps should be something displayed because when the public comes in with the kids, they're the ones who will be holding their smart phones. The other important thing will to engage the public.  Go to them, don't wait for them to come to you.  

 MTH has always done a great job at App presentation along with Bachmann.

My observation is that the Halls I was in while I was in them were fairly crowded Thursday, Friday and even today Saturday.  Admittedly i don't spend my precious time at the Meet to monitoring attendance volume, I have fun hunting for layout items, trains and socializing.   Several vendors I asked told me it was a great Meet or the best Meet they've ever had!  

I've said on all the threads here about the non-member public attending the York Meet that I don't know where they will come from or how much of a difference it will make. Most O gauge model train enthusiasts in the region already attend. But even if they do increase attendance, will they be buyers?  A Greenberg's Show is held in January in what is the Orange Hall and it is sparsely attended.  And it only covers about half of the building. It costs less, no membership required and the public stays away, even with the local advertising. 

The proposed changes will not affect my enjoyment of the York Meet. The TCA Eastern Division does a phenomenal job in organizing and hosting the Meet. I find train items I want and need every time and have so much fun seeing friends and making new ones. They can invite whomever they want. I'm happy that they invite me to their marvelous toy train event. 

MartyE posted:

...................That I do agree with.  The dealer and manufacturers were the ones asking for this change, rightfully so, but they need to now do their part with displays reminiscent of 5-6 years ago.  .................

+1.  The major displays both Lionel an MTH created when thy were still trying to out-do each other at York (prior to their unofficial gentleman's agreement to scale it down so each could save money attending the meet)should be pulled out of moth balls at least for next April's York to help maximize the impressive nature of the meet for any public attendees who have never been there before.

-Dave

Can you tell me when and what is the rule change for the public? Thank you.

Train Head, the details haven't been worked out yet, but you can read about it here. 

York Meet to Open to the Public

Only attended Friday and thought the aisles were fairly crowded especially in member halls.  

I did hear some complaints about the future extended hours for public access.  Can't please everyone none of the time. 

With regard to the parking comment above, as I've said elsewhere, I have found parking more crowded Thursday mornings the last several Yorks, than previously.  I had better, not good, but better parking Friday morning.  I noticed the wider aisles, and the empty tables, too, which seem a contradiction....buyers are showing up, but dealers aren't?   When I am lucky, the Strasburg O scale show, and the Timonium scale show are on the weekends of York week.  I have attended both before while at York and they are not unattended....has their attendance dropped off?  There was a time, when I was finding stuff, that I would attend any train show within reasonable, and sometimes beyond, reasonable reach.  If people that close to Timonium KNOW (advertising, flyers, published announcements) the show is going on, they will attend, at least once....maybe not after they discover it is not all HO or N. In this hobby of tinplate trains, and in other hobbies I am familiar with, the people with the interest discover where the big  and relevant shows are.  I doubt if many will be brought in unless it is well advertised.  I am not finding much in York in old trains of interest to me...these seem to have gone to the internet auctions; the few remaining manufacturers seem to have fallen back into the pre-Williams mode....nothing new of interest to me. except for a stray car or two, is being produced. I did not make as many circuits of all the halls as usual and left earlier than usual.  I, for several Yorks, have not thought it worth the trip for those two reasons.  (personal problem, maybe)

Traindiesel posted:

... I've said on all the threads here about the non-member public attending the York Meet that I don't know where they will come from or how much of a difference it will make. Most O gauge model train enthusiasts in the region already attend. But even if they do increase attendance, will they be buyers?  A Greenberg's Show is held in January in what is the Orange Hall and it is sparsely attended.  And it only covers about half of the building. It costs less, no membership required and the public stays away, even with the local advertising....

 

Well, Traindiesel, central PA's January weather doesn't harken many folks to venture out much, especially when coupled with the post holidays fatigue and its associated symptoms that many feel during January so it's no surprise the Greenberg crowd is sparse. I'd guess if the present format of the TCA October meet was moved to January that it wouldn't fare much better than the Greenberg show you mentioned. I especially wonder how many tables and attendees would be in the member halls considering the aging demographics of TCA members and the inclination of that age group to either spend the deep winter months in southern areas with warmer climates or for the ones who spend January in the northern colder climates to stay put in their warm homes and travel as little as possible during the uncertain, generally inclement and certainly cold month of January. 

For me it was another great York. I did the all the halls 4 times. Found some great bargains. I can't wait for April to get here. I will be there on my birthday April 27th. Tuesday was a great day for the bandit meet at the Wyndham  almost all the tables were sold outside. Inside the ballroom all the tables were sold out.

Oh, I don't know, the Big E show in Springfield, Ma. seems to do very well with attendance while being held in January. 

Traindiesel posted:

Oh, I don't know, the Big E show in Springfield, Ma. seems to do very well with attendance while being held in January. 

Maybe so, but then obviously MA's dot and local municipal road crews in MA are in a totally different league from those in PA when it comes to clearing roads during inclement winter storms. It's like comparing a major league playoff team to one of baseball's lowest farm teams. 

Mallard4468 posted:

  Maybe folks on the east coast are spoiled.  I've often driven 3.5 hours each way for a good train meet, and I've known people to drive much farther than that.  If you draw a 3 hour circle around the largest train meet on the planet, it includes a lot of people.

 

If you draw a 2 hour circle around York, the "public" has about 20 train shows to attend each year. Most of these are Greenberg shows, Timonium Scale shows, Allentown, and local TCA shows (public admitted 1 hour after opening). In fact, 6 of these shows are within a half hour of York. Bottom line: the "public" is not "starved" for train shows in SE Pennsylvania.

Hopefully, if the public shows up at TCA York, they may decide to join the TCA so that they can get into all 6 buildings rather than just 2. On the other hand, most non-member train people are into HO or N gauges. Slim pickings at York for those.

This York was an eye opener for me. It seemed like attendance was down quite a bit, but the changes don't stop there. The Brown Hall is gone, the Purple Hall is an empty shell of what it used to be. Dealers in the Orange Hall seemed to have much less new product. There was considerably less new or fairly new high end product in the member halls.

What's going on?

1) The economy has peaked and, with that, we have manufacturer caution, dealer wariness and maxed out train buyers.

2) Many members are reaching the age where making the trek to York may no longer be easy enough.

3) Hobby shops/small dealers are going out of business in greater numbers.

4) The Internet has made it so much easier to get the items that buyers want, the appeal of York is diminished as it has been for many of the other train meets.

5) The cornucopia of new product has finally reached gargantuan size. How much more can the market consume without an enormous stomach ache?

Scrappy

Traindiesel posted:

Oh, I don't know, the Big E show in Springfield, Ma. seems to do very well with attendance while being held in January. 

I agree, I don't think the January date is the issue.  Lots of people have cabin fever and a train show is a great remedy for that!

George

ogaugeguy posted:

Traindiesel posted:

Oh, I don't know, the Big E show in Springfield, Ma. seems to do very well with attendance while being held in January. 

Maybe so, but then obviously MA's dot and local municipal road crews in MA are in a totally different league from those in PA when it comes to clearing roads during inclement winter storms. It's like comparing a major league playoff team to one of baseball's lowest farm teams. 

Yes, that's probably true. But that's not a factor when it's not snowing. 

I thought the meet well attended.  Maybe the Purple Hall was less filled and maybe the aisles were a bit wider in Orange, but it "felt" the same to me.  How's that for an unscientific analysis? 

I know the member halls were crowded as usual.

As has been said earlier in this thread, advertising will be the key to drawing the public to the meet.  However, there is a very good story to tell and lots of selling points.  I don't think the public will stay away if the Eastern Division does a good job of marketing.  And given the past few years, I think the Eastern Division is doing a lot of things right.

George

Someone told me on Friday the they were doing a trial run on Saturday and opening up the dealer halls to non-members.  Anyone know if this happened?  I'm out in Pittsburgh this weekend.

Seemed to me this meet was better attended than April.  I felt like there was a pretty decent crowd Thursday and Friday.  Agree that ED is going to have to do some heavy advertising to make opening to the public worthwhile.  BigRail 

Someone told me on Friday the they were doing a trial run on Saturday and opening up the dealer halls to non-members.  Anyone know if this happened? Don't think it was but if they did, it was a failure.

Since the dealer hall residents were told they will be required to stay until 4pm, some were not happy. I spoke to a few of the larger store owners and the complaint that they would be arriving back home at a too late hour was a driving force. A few that were located farther away are considering not attending. They are unwilling to stay another night and absorb hotel and food costs for their crews. Apparently the driving force for the public admittance is the big two manufacturers. Lionel was actually selling apparel and trinkets at the show which I don't remember them ever doing. A glimpse of the future? If a few of the high volume store sellers vacate the meet, buying options will shrink for attendees and the dealer halls could turn into a trade show type atmosphere. That would certainly be considered a backfire..........................

Scrapiron Scher posted:

This York was an eye opener for me. It seemed like attendance was down quite a bit, but the changes don't stop there. The Brown Hall is gone, the Purple Hall is an empty shell of what it used to be. Dealers in the Orange Hall seemed to have much less new product. There was considerably less new or fairly new high end product in the member halls.

What's going on?

1) The economy has peaked and, with that, we have manufacturer caution, dealer wariness and maxed out train buyers.

2) Many members are reaching the age where making the trek to York may no longer be easy enough.

3) Hobby shops/small dealers are going out of business in greater numbers.

4) The Internet has made it so much easier to get the items that buyers want, the appeal of York is diminished as it has been for many of the other train meets.

5) The cornucopia of new product has finally reached gargantuan size. How much more can the market consume without an enormous stomach ache?

...

Elliot, you had a first-hand look at what I've been saying for a few years now.  Each and every month here on the forum, we see sales from forum sponsors that often offer product at less-than-preorder prices.  Bottom line... we don't NEED York for our train-buying extravaganzas.  They're right here:  both as new products from dealers, as well as Mint, Like-New, and excellent-condition products from forum members.   

Newly catalog'd products from many of the major importers represent huge "opportunities" to spend big money on big-ticket purchases everywhere we look nowadays... look north and you'll spend $1K on that small steam locomotive... look east and there goes another $2K on an articulated steamer... look south and you thought you'd spend $250 on some rolling stock but wound up buying 4X your original plan for another $1K out the door... look west and you've just spent another $2K on an ABBA configuration of locomotives!    It's just crazy!!! 

Between purchase and pre-orders, even folks who attend York are already maxed out.  So they proceed cautiously at York... or worse yet, decide not to even make the trip. 

We can't fight the laws of physics:  many of us have been adults in this hobby since the 1980's... some even longer.  That's a good 4+ decades, most of which have seen toy train offerings explode almost endlessly since the days Lionel closed its factory doors in Hillside, NJ.

I attended York for 5 hours on Thursday... the first hour was to take care of deliveries from my recent for-sale thread on the forum.  The 4 hours I spent at the show were primarily in the Orange Hall -- stopping by at booths of the key O-Gauge importers, a few dealers, plus one well-known layout builder with a studio in the Adirondacks.    Then a quick jaunt over to the Purple Hall - which turned out to be a waste of time (for me, anyway) other than to add to the 8,000+ steps I walked that day. 

By 4PM, I was back on the road.   And the back of my SUV had two small boxes in it:  2 new MTH/LCT Standard Gauge #4010 tankers from SideTrack Hobbies, which I could have purchased ANYTIME for a good price.  Nothing particularly special about buying them at York -- aside from the fact they were my token purchases for this trip.

Aside from my need to get home for a business commitment on Friday, I can't help but wonder how representative I am of MANY folks in the hobby.  And when I saw TONS of what I'd call "just regular, good ole rolling stock and locomotives (mostly new old stock)" at many dealer booths in the Orange Hall, my eyes just glazed over... thinking, "Who's gonna buy all this stuff???"    Yes, I admit I was moving rather quickly through the hall -- due to my limited time at the show this year.  But even at that, I concluded I've reached a new stage in this hobby.  I still LOVE it like there's no tomorrow.  But it's an entirely different ballgame these days.  Can't put a better handle on it than that, but something has definitely changed... and continues to change in that direction.

I'm sure York will be around for years to come.  But exactly what it will look like is anyone's guess.

OK... now who's going to Allentown???  Chuck, it's time to plan breakfast at the Hamilton Family Diner... only two weeks away!!!    Count me in!!! 

David

Well, Just got home a couple hours ago after a 7 hour drive. For me this was well worth the drive as this was my best meet ever by far at York. Not sure why, I did talk w several other venders who agreed that they had better sales also, even though traffic was less.  I and many many other vendors have asked for this meet to be opened to the public for years now. WHY ?, to help expose this hobby to the younger generations. If we don't, It is somewhat our fault that this hobby will fade. Certainly MTH and Lionel have and are doing their best by incorporating the new technologies of today to attract the younger generations. That is my 3 cents.

jim r

 

Since the dealer hall residents were told they will be required to stay until 4pm, some were not happy. 

By 9:15 AM on Friday in the orange hall, I observed a dealer going from booth to booth with a notebook taking opinions on the 4PM closing. Whether or not it was a petition against it I could not tell. I could tell that the concept was not well taken with the small booth holders.

Didn't see anyone taking photos in the dealer halls. Didn't see more than a couple of people on cell phones. Above posts in this thread are mixed lighter attendance vs increased attendance. Didn't see any strollers. Did see one guy letting his 2 boys touch a lot of vintage trains at dealer's table without concern for damage. They didn't buy anything either. So far, meet changes seem ineffective IMO.

What is happening at York is also happening at the many "collectors" shows and flea markets I attend each year (in fact, I'm off to "The antiques capital of PA" after I type this).

1. My generation (born 1942) is the last of the avid collectors. We wanted one example of everything. If most were stored in closets, OK. Now people want just a few items in excellent condition to display.

2. From what I can see, the same number of buyers are showing up at big flea markets and shows. It's the sellers that are staying home (to sell on eBay?). There is a big flea market in PA called Shupp's Grove. 20 years ago, dealers had to arrive by 4:30 am Sunday morning to get a space. Today it is a sea of empty tables.

3. EBay has totally changed the collectors market. Look at any "price guide" published before 1998. Then compare those guides to what these items are actually selling for on eBay. I see most stuff I've collected going for half. EBay is "real world", price guides are "wishful thinking".

Scrapiron Scher posted:

 There was considerably less new or fairly new high end product in the member halls.

 

I agree.  This observation stuck out for me probably more than anything else about this year's York.  

While it may impact the health of the TCA and the show itself, changing the Eastern Division's York train show is not going to have any impact on the future of toy train collecting / operating.
A person is either interested in collecting / operating, or they are not. Those who are interested will seek out trains.
The impact on the TCA and the show will be seen over time.
Some folks are now expressing reservations.

When I started attending York, the dealers were all in the Yellow hall, under the Grandstand. Maybe it was just my imagination, but it seemed to me that the yellow hall held a lot less sellers than any one of the member halls. So clearly the emphasis was on member to member transactions, as opposed to dealer to member.

Folks say that change is necessary because collecting is dying. Sorry folks, but operating isn't far behind.
There will always be collectors, and there will always be operators. There just won't be as many.

I want to see the Eastern Division and the TCA succeed, so I hope I am dead wrong.

By the way, I had been a regular attendee of antique shows/flea markets within a 150 mile radius of my home. My wife and I have cut out all but two of the shows. One is too close to skip, and seems to be growing in both attendees and sellers. The other is Brimfield. A few years back, Brimfield shrunk significantly in the number of sellers and attendees. The number of attendees has rebounded, but the number of sellers has not. Some of the more famous fields seem to have no more than 1/4 of the sellers they used to get.
Plus the merchandise is changing. There are less genuine antiques. There are a lot of reproductions, and items cobbled together, as is highlighted on shows like "Flea Market Flip".

I notice a lot of the rants above are all about product, pricing, and whether I filled the back of the SUV. If that's all I was looking to do I'd stay home. I saw a lot of friend, new and old.  I had a fun Legacy meeting where I met a newbie named Timmy. I saw Eddie G who didn't make it in the spring looking happy as ever. 

If York is all about the train buying I suspect you have something to whine about. If you're like me you probably had a great time and didn't obsess on counting people , product, and pricing. And you were probably happy your SUV got great mileage home without the weight of trains. 

Yhanks EDTCA!  As long as you have a meet and I'm able to attend I'm there. 

MartyE posted:

I notice a lot of the rants above are all about product, pricing, and whether I filled the back of the SUV. If that's all I was looking to do I'd stay home. I saw a lot of friend, new and old.  I had a fun Legacy meeting where I met a newbie named Timmy. I saw Eddie G who didn't make it in the spring looking happy as ever. 

If York is all about the train buying I suspect you have something to whine about. If you're like me you probably had a great time and didn't obsess on counting people , product, and pricing. And you were probably happy your SUV got great mileage home without the weight of trains. 

Yhanks EDTCA!  As long as you have a meet and I'm able to attend I'm there. 

Well stated MARTY!!!  I enjoyed the meet as well on THURSDAY by myself and saw friends that night, then had an enjoyable day with my WIFE there on Friday.

Geez what a bunch of whiners. I was at York on both Thursday and Friday and it was more crowded then the past 6 or 7 years. The aisles in the orange hall were the same also. 

Change comes and with it the train shows will change. I'm looking forward to April to see freinds and talk and buy trains. 

The dealers I talked to had a great show and I hope it continues. Letting the public in is a start so let's support the EDTCA as they move into a new direction. 

Btw this was my 62nd straight York. 

Dave

MartyE posted:

I notice a lot of the rants above are all about product, pricing, and whether I filled the back of the SUV. If that's all I was looking to do I'd stay home. I saw a lot of friend, new and old.  I had a fun Legacy meeting where I met a newbie named Timmy. I saw Eddie G who didn't make it in the spring looking happy as ever. 

If York is all about the train buying I suspect you have something to whine about. If you're like me you probably had a great time and didn't obsess on counting people , product, and pricing. And you were probably happy your SUV got great mileage home without the weight of trains. 

Yhanks EDTCA!  As long as you have a meet and I'm able to attend I'm there. 

Pretty much sums up my feelings as well.  Seeing friends again is the major attraction.  Although, if you like going to train shows just to see table after table of the same tired schlock, Allentown is for you.  York (even in April) is about 100X better.

George

Just my perspective  but when we open the York meet to the public why limit the non TCA members to only dealer halls. For those members that make the trek to sell i'm sure they would appreciate the extra traffic. I doubt it that any member selling would really concern themselves much over who the buyer is so long as the the cash is there .

L.I.TRAIN posted:

Just my perspective  but when we open the York meet to the public why limit the non TCA members to only dealer halls. For those members that make the trek to sell i'm sure they would appreciate the extra traffic. I doubt it that any member selling would really concern themselves much over who the buyer is so long as the the cash is there .

Because of the tax rule. Members currently do not collect tax. Allowing the public in the member halls will require them to collect sales tax. I also suspect the members would disagree with you. Most of them want it a completely closed meet. 

There are a lot of great points here, however, let me tell you right coast collectors/operators how lucky you all are to have such a great event, even if it is a 2-3 hour drive.

The closest thing we have here on the left coast is the Cal-Stewart. Even though it is no York, we still face a lot of the similar issues. The increase of costs to put on the event, with the decline of sellers. The Northern California event used to be held in one huge area by opening adjacent  conference rooms, and the last event was at a smaller hotel, with one little room.

However, with that being said, the wife and I still go to the meet and make a day of it with friends. We have gone even with the intentions of not buying anything. It gives us a chance to meet up with old friends, and look at items we all enjoy looking supporting  the hobby,and we all go lunch, and discuss what we bought or saw.

Heck, even the last show that we went to, I ended up with an MTH Premier Blue Comet Engine w/ PS1 for $100 NIB. This is what happens when you are not looking for anything. Got a great engine, spent the day with my wife, had fun, and supported our favorite hobby.

Even if there is a decline in sellers and buyers at York, I would hope it never goes away. One of my dream trips is to make the trip to York, meet as many of you as I can, meet some of the dealers I have done business with over the years, and look at some great trains!

JoeG

C W Burfle posted:

While it may impact the health of the TCA and the show itself, changing the Eastern Division's York train show is not going to have any impact on the future of toy train collecting / operating.
 ...

Exactly...  When a similar thread about York's proposed changes was created months ago, I stated the same thing... namely, "When did it become York's mission statement to save the hobby?"  Rather York will be what it will be.

Think of a diagram with "toy train swap meet" on one side, and "industry trade show" on the other side.  Then imagine a pendulum swinging back and forth.  York started with the pendulum all the way on "swap meet", and over the years the pendulum has moved along the diagram -- but never quite completely -- to "trade show".  It's become a blend of both, and that's fine.  Everybody wins.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the pendulum will move back to "swap meet" territory long before York dies.  Toy train enthusiasts will always want to get together, because the social element is very compelling.  Accomodating public attendance is largely a move to help dealers defray costs of attending.  The worst that could happen is dealers won't see the expected surge in sales they're hoping for, and York will return to purely a swap meet environment as dealers begin dropping out.  None of these things happen overnight though.

For gosh sakes, people... Nobody here is whining or ranting about anything.   Give it a break, please.  We're simply making some observations about the look-and-feel of York as we knew it and experienced it -- some of us for the past few decades -- and how it's changed.  

We're all at different places on our journey in this hobby.  So rather than criticize folks for asking questions and commenting, just sit back and enjoy the ride and where you happen to be on the journey.

David

G3750 posted:

...  if you like going to train shows just to see table after table of the same tired schlock, Allentown is for you.  York (even in April) is about 100X better.

...

George, with all due respects, you forgot to say, "in my opinion".    Two different shows.  Allentown hold its own any day... any time.  I've been attending Allentown long before I was a TCA member and started attending York.  There are no signs of Allentown going by the wayside.

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

George, with all due respects, you forgot to say, "in my opinion".    Two different shows.  Allentown hold its own any day... any time.  I've been attending Allentown long before I was a TCA member and started attending York.  There are no signs of Allentown going by the wayside.

David

You forgot to say "in my opinion". 

dk122trains posted:

York will evolve just as the hobby has the past 30 years.  I will go and support it. It is more than a show, it is and has been an event for years. The top 10 percent spend the most money at York , all the big boys better bring more creative layouts to the show if they are trying to lure the public into the hobby,remember the wow of the showroom layouts, what is there now is terrible. Even OGR and its Ameritowne line could create a display that triggers the imagine to build an affordable home layout, not just piles of building kits in a booth. These examples of displays can show the public the apps and at the same time encourage growth of the hobby. The orange hall will need a combination of dealers and layouts to lure and repeat foot traffic on the public days of York. Let it be said,I love York!

I said the exact same thing to the Lionel guys on Friday. They should definitely bring back the great layout that they were bringing to York up until a couple of years ago. They said the new set up allows them to demonstrate features better, but nothing sells toy trains like a neat layout. The Lionel Corporation knew this back in their heyday, not only with the showroom layouts, but with the thousands of Dealer Display Layouts that we used to see in department stores, hobby shops, sporting goods stores; I even remember one in an auto parts store.

If the goal is to bring people into this hobby by opening it up to the general public, then bring in the fancy layouts and let the imaginations do the selling. 

MartyE posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

George, with all due respects, you forgot to say, "in my opinion".    Two different shows.  Allentown hold its own any day... any time.  I've been attending Allentown long before I was a TCA member and started attending York.  There are no signs of Allentown going by the wayside.

David

You forgot to say "in my opinion". 

Two points:

1) Is there any other?  LOL.  OK, in my opinion.

2) I wasn't predicting the demise or the eclipse of the Allentown meets.  If they float your boat, super.  I was commenting on what I've seen there.

George

Looking at this whole situation with a Detective view.  I only hope the wrong people do not figure out lots of cash is walking about and no MEMBER becomes a victim of an assault or armed robbery.  I have always felt very safe being surrounded by other members with names in the badge holder.  

I feel this public thing  is unfair to dealers.  They may see more plastic than cash.  Good luck with that.  I know if we have unknown persons wandering about our vehicles, no more taking the Corvette to York if I decide to go again.  

Nobody cares about my thoughts but being a Police Officer for 37.5 years, I have seen things and this is not a good thing to let unknowns wander among our members.   Yes, most will be great people.  Any street guy/junkie  worth his salt can score big at York with all the cash walking about.  

NYC Fan posted:

... If the goal is to bring people into this hobby by opening it up to the general public, then bring in the fancy layouts and let the imaginations do the selling. 

Very well stated.  Excellent point.

It was only a few years ago (or so it seems) that MTH, Lionel and Atlas-O had some wonderful layouts that inspired visitors.  The current display layouts are a mere shadow of their predecessors, and I'm sure cost is a huge factor in the equation.  Hopefully that will change if they expect to draw a new audience and capture the general public's interest.

David

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Looking at this whole situation with a Detective view.  I only hope the wrong people do not figure out lots of cash is walking about and no MEMBER becomes a victim of an assault or armed robbery.  I have always felt very safe being surrounded by other members with names in the badge holder.  

I feel this public thing  is unfair to dealers.  They may see more plastic than cash.  Good luck with that.  I know if we have unknown persons wandering about our vehicles, no more taking the Corvette to York if I decide to go again.  

Nobody cares about my thoughts but being a Police Officer for 37.5 years, I have seen things and this is not a good thing to let unknowns wander among our members.   Yes, most will be great people.  Any street guy/junkie  worth his salt can score big at York with all the cash walking about.  

 

FYI Marty, it was pointed out at the Saturday business meeting which I would wager no one who has posted on this thread attended, that the Fairgrounds have always been open to the public. Only the buildings are closed. Admission will be $14 for one day (family of 1-?) or $20 for two days. I suspect its unlikely anyone will pay to get into the hall so they can stick someone up and outside its the same as it ever was.

BTW the Black Hall has always been open to the public believe it or don't but since no trading happens there anyone from the street can walk in and enjoy the layouts. This point was news for most everyone.

Pete

Norton posted:

FYI Marty, it was pointed out at the Saturday business meeting which I would wager no one who has posted on this thread attended, that the Fairgrounds have always been open to the public. Only the buildings are closed. ................

Same thought occurred to me when reading Marty's post.  While I'm sure security would respond if something is reported, I would guess any perpetrators would be long gone if someone was robbed closer to their car than the buildings.

-Dave

FYI Marty, it was pointed out at the Saturday business meeting which I would wager no one who has posted on this thread attended, that the Fairgrounds have always been open to the public.

Here is the difference: presumably the show will be advertised, drawing attention to itself, which raises the potential for a miscreant to be aware of it, and show up.

Honestly though, I don't think I'd worry about this too much. I'd be more concerned with those unfamiliar with the hobby poking and touching things they should not.

I wonder how members feel about the public admission being less than members pay?

Has anyone ever been held up at the Big E show?  I don't think crime is a big factor at that show and I don't think it will be at York. And wouldn't train guy have the most money in their pockets on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday at the bandit meets with free admission?

C W Burfle posted:

..................................
Honestly though, I don't think I'd worry about this too much. I'd be more concerned with those unfamiliar with the hobby poking and touching things they should not..................................

That could be an issue, possibly. 

I recall at a very small local (well, Delaware, so 1 hour "local" drive for me) meet in the late 90's there was a seller with some older (probably PW, but could have been pre) items with boxes. 

He had some sort of item in a box where the item could be shown by leaving the top flap opened while the item still was in the box.

I saw the interaction when some person casually grabbed the end flap of the box and pulled it toward them to get a better look at the item (thereby putting the stress of pulling the item's weight on the end flap seam).  The person had no clue that the box on such an item added to the value, just that it was an old beat up box. 

I don't think it actually got torn off, but he very politely informed her how that was not an appropriate way to grab something on the table.

-Dave

I'm part of the senior crowd (72 yrs old) and live just 45 min from York.  Anything I'd ever buy a York I can buy on the net and don't have to navigate my way through the crowds.  But that's just me.  For those who enjoy the York experience I hope it never ends for you.

My wife and I attended York and had a delightful time. We saw minimal or no decline in the number of attendees. Yes, there were some empty tables, even in the Orange Hall.

My background is marketing and to be honest, those selling at York could sure use some assistance in this area. Some sellers had lots of their people standing around talking to each other not even looking at their customers. If you are going to bring people, someone needs to understand that the purpose is SALES, MEETING PEOPLE, and TALKING THINGS UP. I asked the owner of one well known business if I could have five minutes of his time. You would have thought that I was asking to date his daughter.

I embarrassed him into talking to me. Come to find out, I was a customer who wanted to spend $10,000+ with him, had been recommended by a supplier, and yes, I needed to discuss it.

Some displays were exciting, looked new, had interesting product... and these dealers appeared to be doing quite well. Others had no spark, little interest, and were obviously simply there. They are undoubtedly complaining and wondering why they spent so much time and money for so little in the way of results.

In the customer sales arena today, those who excel do so because they are energetic, engaged, understand customer service, know their product, and enjoy meeting their customers... and making new ones. They offer something extra and go beyond what is expected routinely. They stand above their competition. If a business cannot do these things, that business is destined to fail.

I read the excuses and I saw what many dealers in all halls were doing. Many if not most were working hard to avoid their customers.

One example of on the ball is Liz Nelson, Mrs Muffin as some call her. She was in the Korber booth and was obviously rather new at it as might be expected since she and Steve had just announced the purchase October 16. But she was helpful, interested, and took the time to answer questions and assist us with a need that we had. She and Steve understand sales. They will get a lot more of our business and we will stop at their new store next summer when we go to Michigan.

We plan to return to York in April. It is a time of fellowship, seeing people that we usually only see twice a year, and of checking out what is new. And we do not always buy when we are in York. We have a list of calls and e-mails to make about things that we saw. For a well run business, there is good money to be made at York... but you have to work for it,  you have to work smart, and you have to be interested in your potential customer.

I believe that the desire for change is driven by the success of the WGHOT show. Its a public show and none of the problems sighted in this thread have surfaced. It draws TWICE the attendance of York in two days. With double the audience, dealers might be given the opportunity to make more money even if it only results in 10% more sales. The days of a club requirement to attend any  show are over. Look at the giant cars shows at Macungie (AACA) Carlisle and Hershey ( AACA). Look at the huge gun shows at the Pennsylvania Expo center.  They let the public in because its more affordable that way and good a good business practice. If you don't do everything to keep the retail dealers profitable York will fall apart. The status quo can't continue to do it forever. Time is not on the ED side and IMO a one day public event at York in one or two halls won't do much for sales but it might have an effect. As I've said before; revenue determines it all.

Look at the giant cars shows at Macungie (AACA) Carlisle and Hershey ( AACA).

When was a membership required to attend Carlisle or Hershey?

I still believe in the TCA membership.  While York may still have to evolve if it wants to remain as it is, perhaps they'll find the EDTCA membership would rather go back to simpler meet with members only and have the dealers go away.  It may not be a big event but I'm pretty sure they never envisioned what it turned into any ways.

Bottom line is you can be part of the problem or part of the solution.  Work towards making it better.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Scrapiron Scher posted:

This York was an eye opener for me. It seemed like attendance was down quite a bit, but the changes don't stop there. The Brown Hall is gone, the Purple Hall is an empty shell of what it used to be. Dealers in the Orange Hall seemed to have much less new product. There was considerably less new or fairly new high end product in the member halls.

What's going on?

1) The economy has peaked and, with that, we have manufacturer caution, dealer wariness and maxed out train buyers.

2) Many members are reaching the age where making the trek to York may no longer be easy enough.

3) Hobby shops/small dealers are going out of business in greater numbers.

4) The Internet has made it so much easier to get the items that buyers want, the appeal of York is diminished as it has been for many of the other train meets.

5) The cornucopia of new product has finally reached gargantuan size. How much more can the market consume without an enormous stomach ache?

...

Elliot, you had a first-hand look at what I've been saying for a few years now.  Each and every month here on the forum, we see sales from forum sponsors that often offer product at less-than-preorder prices.  Bottom line... we don't NEED York for our train-buying extravaganzas.  They're right here:  both as new products from dealers, as well as Mint, Like-New, and excellent-condition products from forum members.   

Newly catalog'd products from many of the major importers represent huge "opportunities" to spend big money on big-ticket purchases everywhere we look nowadays... look north and you'll spend $1K on that small steam locomotive... look east and there goes another $2K on an articulated steamer... look south and you thought you'd spend $250 on some rolling stock but wound up buying 4X your original plan for another $1K out the door... look west and you've just spent another $2K on an ABBA configuration of locomotives!    It's just crazy!!! 

Between purchase and pre-orders, even folks who attend York are already maxed out.  So they proceed cautiously at York... or worse yet, decide not to even make the trip. 

We can't fight the laws of physics:  many of us have been adults in this hobby since the 1980's... some even longer.  That's a good 4+ decades, most of which have seen toy train offerings explode almost endlessly since the days Lionel closed its factory doors in Hillside, NJ.

I attended York for 5 hours on Thursday... the first hour was to take care of deliveries from my recent for-sale thread on the forum.  The 4 hours I spent at the show were primarily in the Orange Hall -- stopping by at booths of the key O-Gauge importers, a few dealers, plus one well-known layout builder with a studio in the Adirondacks.    Then a quick jaunt over to the Purple Hall - which turned out to be a waste of time (for me, anyway) other than to add to the 8,000+ steps I walked that day. 

By 4PM, I was back on the road.   And the back of my SUV had two small boxes in it:  2 new MTH/LCT Standard Gauge #4010 tankers from SideTrack Hobbies, which I could have purchased ANYTIME for a good price.  Nothing particularly special about buying them at York -- aside from the fact they were my token purchases for this trip.

Aside from my need to get home for a business commitment on Friday, I can't help but wonder how representative I am of MANY folks in the hobby.  And when I saw TONS of what I'd call "just regular, good ole rolling stock and locomotives (mostly new old stock)" at many dealer booths in the Orange Hall, my eyes just glazed over... thinking, "Who's gonna buy all this stuff???"    Yes, I admit I was moving rather quickly through the hall -- due to my limited time at the show this year.  But even at that, I concluded I've reached a new stage in this hobby.  I still LOVE it like there's no tomorrow.  But it's an entirely different ballgame these days.  Can't put a better handle on it than that, but something has definitely changed... and continues to change in that direction.

I'm sure York will be around for years to come.  But exactly what it will look like is anyone's guess.

OK... now who's going to Allentown???  Chuck, it's time to plan breakfast at the Hamilton Family Diner... only two weeks away!!!    Count me in!!! 

David

 Allentown - you bet! Try to never miss it! 

I would say people who go to the train show just might carry a bit more cash than patrons that go to  some shows that use the Fair Grounds.  Time will tell.  Good luck everyone.  Hershey is a place that I feel secure.  

Dennis LaGrua posted:

I believe that the desire for change is driven by the success of the WGHOT show. Its a public show and none of the problems sighted in this thread have surfaced. It draws TWICE the attendance of York in two days. With double the audience, dealers might be given the opportunity to make more money even if it only results in 10% more sales.

Would you please explain what was being sold at the WGH show? I spent both full days at the Philadelphia one, and saw very few dealers selling things that were not related to Thomas the Tank Engine.

The main reason so many show up is TV, radio, newspaper, and billboards advertising it.

Would you please explain what was being sold at the WGH show? I spent both full days at the Philadelphia one, and saw very few dealers selling things that were not related to Thomas the Tank Engine.

The main reason so many show up is TV, radio, newspaper, and billboards advertising it.

The one I went to drew over 20,000 for 2 days with plenty of kids. Very little for sale and more like a quality day out with the kids.

"Hershey is a place that I feel secure" Sorry, I don't get it.

MartyE posted:

... While York may still have to evolve if it wants to remain as it is, perhaps they'll find the EDTCA membership would rather go back to simpler meet with members only and have the dealers go away.  It may not be a big event but I'm pretty sure they never envisioned what it turned into any ways.

...

So this really begs the question, "What is truly driving the EDTCA to open the meet to the general public?".  I ask this basic question, because there needs to be a clear metric by which the succss (or failure) of opening the show to the public for a few seasons can be measured:

• Is it MTH, Lionel and Atlas-O (i.e., the big importers) hoping to increase foot-traffic so more youth and families in general are exposed to the hobby?

• Or is it dealers (large and small) who want to increase sales to make the trip to York more manageable from an ROI perspective?

• Or is the TCA hoping to bolster attendance, with hopes of drawing more folks into the TCA?

The first driver is probably the most subjective in terms of having a clear metric by which to measure.  Sure... attendance figures are easy to monitor, but will the increased attendance actually mean anything of significance?  In other words... OK, a lot of people attended... now what?  Are they buyers?  Will they return again?  Will they join the hobby?  All good questions, but is it York's mission statement to grow the hobby like this?

The second driver is likely the most objective with respect to measuring success or failure... namely, did vendors and dealers see a noticeable increase in sales/profits for their trip?  And will they need to bring different types of product to garner interest among the general public vs. long-time TCA members?  For example, does a dealer like Charlie Ro or Nicholas Smith need to bring a bunch of starter sets and layout expansion sets that are added to their booth on days the public will attend?  'Cause I can say without a doubt that John Q. Public ain't gonna walk out with locomotives priced north of $500 or rolling stock pieces priced at $60+ each.  Presumably, the dealers will want to exploit the increased opportunity to sell to a new audience, but there may be hidden costs to doing this too.  Just sayin.. It's something dealers of all sizes need to plan for.

And lastly, the third driver listed above is relatively easy to measure, (i.e., attendance numbers).  But it admittedly has some subjectivity to it in terms of qualifying attendees as actual buyers to any degree of significance.  And this does get back to the original conundrum... Namely, if attendance figures go up but dealers don't generate more sales/profit, is that still a success?

Look... I don't have any silver bullet answers.  I just hope the EDTCA doesn't try to turn York into an event that is all things to all people, 'cause that's only asking for trouble.  It's really OK if York maintains a character all to its own, and does just that very, very well. Right?

David

Here we go again debating if EDTCA is trying a change at York. They need to try something new. Geez.... Huge meet twice a year. A lot of prep work and execution to make the meet go smoothly. Stop the whining. 

I go to York to see the trains, maybe buy something and oh yeah... see all my friends from around the country. And get to talk to 2 of my AFC East football rivals about the game.

I ENJOY YORK TWICE A YEAR. 

eddie g posted:

"Hershey is a place that I feel secure" Sorry, I don't get it.

He's addicted to chocolate. 

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

Eddie, Carlisle/Hershey is the site of a huge car/parts swap meet.  Many times it would be the same time as York.  I have split my time with the car show and York.  It is a very cool place to be at.

Mikey, we have many west coast friends that go to York.  Your thoughts have been thrown about by others.  I think we all need to watch how it goes and figure from that point.  I figure this subject will be around until the spring York.  I only go to York to hang with some great people from other parts of the country.  

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

You buy everything sight unseen? Pictures tend to lie.

Kudos to EDTCA for all the hard work the do putting York together twice a year. Kudos to EDTCA for attempting to change and keep up with the changing  times.

What can we do? Be positive and promote the meet, and with that, promote the hobby.

What can the major manufacturers do? By opening this meet to the public, give them a reason to come, and return. The current displays will not do it........they need to be stepped up....

Peter

mikey posted:

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

Living on the West Coast, the $50 membership is the least of your costs to attend York.  Maybe that wasn't your point, it's hard to tell with those 3 different aspects you listed with no further clarification. 

The airfare car and lodging has always been a component for West Coast visitors, public allowed or not.  Also, the buying of things on the net has been an option for quite a while now.

While I've not attended the OGR Forum meeting in a while, we have had visitors from both Australia (a member of this forum) and also China over the years.

mikey posted:

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

I live on the east coast with the majority of the O Gauge community, free dues and admission to York (thank you Nationwide and TCA) I drive, and can spend a night at a decent hotel for $100.  I don't see it ending any time soon.

... While York may still have to evolve if it wants to remain as it is, perhaps they'll find the EDTCA membership would rather go back to simpler meet with members only and have the dealers go away.  It may not be a big event but I'm pretty sure they never envisioned what it turned into any ways.

I've always been a proponent of the "to each their own" / "It's a big tent" school of thought. Having a large dealer presence at York never bothered me.

It would be fine to see the show shift back to how it was in the 1980's, when there were a small number of dealers,  and the focus was on member to member transactions.
And if the show went back to two days, perhaps some of the table holders that were lost by adding Thursday would come back.

If the Eastern Division has to raise prices to make the show break even, then so be it. The ice cream social sounds nice, but if the show is loosing money, how can the E.D. afford to host it?

I read the original post and I think the diagnosis is incorrect and the remedy is worse.  It's not York that is thinning the halls.  It is the abysmal quality and price of the product.  Also the demographic is rapidly changing.  How may 20 year olds have emotional attachment to Lionel anymore?

Quality is subpar as we all know.  There are deniers out there but the again some have a vested interest in promoting a fantasy that all is well.  Price...Horrible!!  As I stared at the new items at York by the dealers all I could think is for the same price I could have a new handgun, rifle, computer, several flat screens, a vacation, new appliance, fishing rod ect. and still have money left over.  And then...let's ask ourselves how many times it will have to be sent back to be repaired or made right.  Price is high compared to other items (in my case handguns and assault rifles), quality is horrible (NEVER had to send a firearm back, not once), and demographic is terminal.

Wrong diagnosis, wrong medicine....you can open it up to the public all you want.  It is declining due to price, quality and demographic.  Period.  

mikey posted:

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

Why go to Disney World when you can watch a video of it?

Why visit friends when you can text them?

I don't understand folks who bemoan the York Meet or TCA.   If it's not your cup of team don't come nor belong.  No sweat off my back.  As long as there's a York Meet I'll still go. 

The TCA (including the EdTCA) has and continues to do more for this hobby than the majority of those who criticize it.  I really don't know what more you can ask of them.   There's York twice a year, a Toy Train museum, kids club, divisions all across the county, annual conventions, cruises, and numerous other benefits for members.  Pretty darn good value for your dues (which if you take advantage of their partnership with Nationwide) makes membership and attending York pretty darn close to free.

If you ask me, it's time for those who criticize to shut up and step up and promote the hobby.  The TCA does plenty enough already.  End Rant.

-Greg

Greg Houser posted:

I don't understand folks who bemoan the York Meet or TCA.   If it's not your cup of team don't come nor belong.  No sweat off my back.  As long as there's a York Meet I'll still go. 

The TCA (including the EdTCA) has and continues to do more for this hobby than the majority of those who criticize it.  I really don't know what more you can ask of them.   There's York twice a year, a Toy Train museum, kids club, divisions all across the county, annual conventions, cruises, and numerous other benefits for members.  Pretty darn good value for your dues (which if you take advantage of their partnership with Nationwide) makes membership and attending York pretty darn close to free.

If you ask me, it's time for those who criticize to shut up and step up and promote the hobby.  The TCA does plenty enough already.  End Rant.

-Greg

 

Greg, They could make a Geico Commercial about these guys. The punch line would be, "If you are a train guy you **** and moan, thats what you do."

Pete  

Norton posted:

Greg Houser posted:

I don't understand folks who bemoan the York Meet or TCA.   If it's not your cup of team don't come nor belong.  No sweat off my back.  As long as there's a York Meet I'll still go. 

The TCA (including the EdTCA) has and continues to do more for this hobby than the majority of those who criticize it.  I really don't know what more you can ask of them.   There's York twice a year, a Toy Train museum, kids club, divisions all across the county, annual conventions, cruises, and numerous other benefits for members.  Pretty darn good value for your dues (which if you take advantage of their partnership with Nationwide) makes membership and attending York pretty darn close to free.

If you ask me, it's time for those who criticize to shut up and step up and promote the hobby.  The TCA does plenty enough already.  End Rant.

-Greg

 

Greg, They could make a Geico Commercial about these guys. The punch line would be, "If you are a train guy you **** and moan, thats what you do."

 

Pete  

PETE and others,

Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining,  And guess what?  Those people are happy all the time.

First let me say that the comments below are just my opinion; I don't want to get chastised.

Just a few observations:  

- Hindsight is 20/20 ( it wasn't soon enough, it was too soon, . . .)

- O scale trains is a brutally expensive hobby to be in for younger families while they struggle with rent, food, utilities, healthcare, kids, insurance, etc.

- For the younger culture; social media costs and hardware (phones, computers, tablets, palms, laptops, kindles, etc) are a much higher priority than $1000.00 engines.

- TCA stands for Train COLLECTORS Association, not Greenberg Public Train Show.

- Joe Hohmann summed it up nicely, the last generation of COLLECTORS were born in the late 40's to mid 50's.   That alone lowers the demand for the trains at York.  And that generation is dying off quickly and leaving mountains of trains behind to be added to the pile of trains available.

- It takes a lot of room to collect O scale trains or have a permanent layout.  Refer to item 2, people don't have the space/money to dedicate to large trains like they used to.

- If you attend York, just look around at the age of the attendees.  Rarely do you see people younger than 50 (excluding those who are working in the train show or tables).  I would estimate that the AVERAGE age of the attendees was easily over 65.  I didn't see anyone with a stroller, but I saw a lot of people with canes and scooters.

- If you attend a public train show the average age of attendee is much lower.  Its probably in the range of 20-25 yrs old, because of all the young families with kids just out for a entertainment day with the kids.  They may buy some popcorn or a $20 boxcar.  They are not your future to sustaining this hobby at its current level.  There is a saturation point, which I think was probably reached in the 1999 to 2002 timeframe.

I'm the only young 30-something year old in my group of friends who collects high-end model trains, and they all look at me like I'm crazy for it! This was my first York meet and I went alone, spent the day hanging and walking around with guys twice my age lol. Wouldn't trade it. Personally I've always been intrigued by model trains and it was in my nature to seek out the hobby. I think you either get the bug at a young age or you don't. I don't see anybody I know all of a sudden getting into the hobby had they not been interested ever before. That's why I think opening up to the public so families can bring their kids is the best way to "pass" the hobby down to a new generation. Not so much getting the young adult parents but their kids. Just my 2 cents! 

We, wife, daughter, and I, had a great time at York. I save some cash throughout the year to bring along. We only do October. We met some friends from Dayton OH & Rochester NY for dinner on Thursday & Friday. Made a purchase in every hall and we just enjoyed ourselves. Travel time is about 7 hours each way. Met some great guys at the hotel and tried to hook one up with my widowed sister-in-law. Yeah, it looked different than it did ten years ago when it was the first time, but it is what it is and will be what it will be. Enjoy it while you can, if you can!

aussteve posted:

 

- O scale trains is a brutally expensive hobby to be in for younger families while they struggle with rent, food, utilities, healthcare, kids, insurance, etc.

 

- It takes a lot of room to collect O scale trains or have a permanent layout.  Refer to item 2, people don't have the space/money to dedicate to large trains like they used to.

 

All of your points are good ones. I'd like to comment on two:

My wife and I, while raising 4 of our kids plus a foster child, were living paycheck to paycheck. It was only much later that I got "into" trains. My motivation was two-fold...I think a Christmas tree should have a village and trains running under it, and, I remember, personally, the last days of steam.

The room needed for a train hobby is not often mentioned. I've always collected "stuff", and I have very large collections of View Master reels (2,100), as well as 3-D "family" slides from the 1950s (4,800). However, each collection only takes up 2 dresser drawers. While the kids were growing up, there was no room for a layout since our old house has a cellar rather than a basement.

Form a pure analytical point of view, there are probably 100's of thousands of O gauge enthusiasts in the USA. Only a small percentage of  these hobbyists are TCA members.  A push to raise the attendance at York can help keep the meet prosperous but I believe that more needs to be done to get non-members and the general public to attend. The solution might be to transform  part of the event into a family event. That would mean a train ride or rides for the kids, maybe Lionel/MTH/Williams/Atlas  balloons, cotton candy and candy corn that are available at most carnivals. Also how about having ED York at the fairground in conjunction with a fall carnival/festival/market that would set up in the old race track area? Not saying that the ED should run a carnival just do a joint event. It might draw thousands more and there would be some spillover into the train meet. This would be a radical change but the ED needs solutions. The ED has done a great job with the York event but it looks like changing demographics and following the status quo may not support the expense of maintaining it.

Form a pure analytical point of view, there are probably 100's of thousands of O gauge enthusiasts in the USA.

On what do you base your estimate?

 That would mean a train ride or rides for the kids, maybe Lionel/MTH/Williams/Atlas  balloons, cotton candy and candy corn that are available at most carnivals. Also how about having ED York at the fairground in conjunction with a fall carnival/festival/market that would set up in the old race track area?

Just what we want, kids charged up on sugar, with sticky fingers, in a show full of antique and expensive modern trains.

Lets see how the planned changes work out.

Or the Eastern Division can go back to its roots. Drop the dealer halls, and go back to running a show for collectors.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

Form a pure analytical point of view, there are probably 100's of thousands of O gauge enthusiasts in the USA. Only a small percentage of  these hobbyists are TCA members.  A push to raise the attendance at York can help keep the meet prosperous but I believe that more needs to be done to get non-members and the general public to attend. The solution might be to transform  part of the event into a family event. That would mean a train ride or rides for the kids, maybe Lionel/MTH/Williams/Atlas  balloons, cotton candy and candy corn that are available at most carnivals. Also how about having ED York at the fairground in conjunction with a fall carnival/festival/market that would set up in the old race track area? Not saying that the ED should run a carnival just do a joint event. It might draw thousands more and there would be some spillover into the train meet. This would be a radical change but the ED needs solutions. The ED has done a great job with the York event but it looks like changing demographics and following the status quo may not support the expense of maintaining it.

I fail to see how comparing the total number of enthusiasts in the whole country (even if that maybe is an accurate number) corresponds to how many new people may attend York.  For die-hard hobbyists, obviously some make the trip from very far.  I'm guessing we will be lucky to see anything outside of maybe 2 or 3 states away (ones within a few hours drive) as new casual attendees.

I hardly see a family from Texas (random far away place - nothing specific in my mind about Texas) saying, "Gee lets pack up the car and drive over 1000 miles over a few days for a weeks vacation to visit that train meet in York, Pennsylvania, after all, they just added a carnival to it, so that makes it more attractive to me!".

Do they have carnival rides at Cal-Stewart or the other meets tossed about in comparison regularly?  If not, I guess those organizations better look into this too, before the EDTCA takes your advice and beats them to the punch!

-Dave

 Turn York into a carnival. Ya,right. 

I'm with you C.W.

C W Burfle posted

Or the Eastern Division can go back to its roots. Drop the dealer halls, and go back to running a show for collectors.

This would constrict the hobby, not expand it. I understand that there was a time before MTH et al when there was low supply, high demand, and prices for Lionel. People "invested" in trains and admittedly some made lots of money. While it may seem attractive to make-believe that the last 30 years didn't happen, there just is no path back to the "good old days".

IMHO the most attractive draw to York IS the Dealer halls. I find it pitiful to see the same old men in the member halls @ York displaying the same old items year, after year, after year.

My totally unqualified $0.02

FWIW, I do agree with you that combining TCA with a Carnival would be Bizarre (pun intended).  

This would constrict the hobby, not expand it.

When did it become the responsibility of the York train show to expand "the hobby". And what is "the hobby" anyway? It's the "Train Collectors Association"
I understand that the current mission statement includes:  "to promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains". But that does not mean that every single thing a TCA division does has to include elements to satisfy that part of the mission statement.

There are plenty of public shows and meets for people who are interested in finding out about trains.

And why is it on the Eastern Division to provide the TCA with its primary recruitment tool? What are the other divisions doing to help the TCA get new members?

IMHO the most attractive draw to York IS the Dealer halls. I find it pitiful to see the same old men in the member halls @ York displaying the same old items year, after year, after year.

Then I assume you are likely to be an operator, as opposed to a collector. I think it's fine that the dealer halls are there for you to enjoy. IMHO, the dealer halls take nothing away from the member halls, or the collector centric aspects of the show.

And its hoped that the planned changes will not negatively impact those collector centric parts.
If things turn out well, there will be no need to consider dropping the dealer halls.

Dave45681 posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

Form a pure analytical point of view, there are probably 100's of thousands of O gauge enthusiasts in the USA. Only a small percentage of  these hobbyists are TCA members.  A push to raise the attendance at York can help keep the meet prosperous but I believe that more needs to be done to get non-members and the general public to attend. The solution might be to transform  part of the event into a family event. That would mean a train ride or rides for the kids, maybe Lionel/MTH/Williams/Atlas  balloons, cotton candy and candy corn that are available at most carnivals. Also how about having ED York at the fairground in conjunction with a fall carnival/festival/market that would set up in the old race track area? Not saying that the ED should run a carnival just do a joint event. It might draw thousands more and there would be some spillover into the train meet. This would be a radical change but the ED needs solutions. The ED has done a great job with the York event but it looks like changing demographics and following the status quo may not support the expense of maintaining it.

I fail to see how comparing the total number of enthusiasts in the whole country (even if that maybe is an accurate number) corresponds to how many new people may attend York.  For die-hard hobbyists, obviously some make the trip from very far.  I'm guessing we will be lucky to see anything outside of maybe 2 or 3 states away (ones within a few hours drive) as new casual attendees.

I hardly see a family from Texas (random far away place - nothing specific in my mind about Texas) saying, "Gee lets pack up the car and drive over 1000 miles over a few days for a weeks vacation to visit that train meet in York, Pennsylvania, after all, they just added a carnival to it, so that makes it more attractive to me!".

Do they have carnival rides at Cal-Stewart or the other meets tossed about in comparison regularly?  If not, I guess those organizations better look into this too, before the EDTCA takes your advice and beats them to the punch!

-Dave

 

Dave, Thank you for posting something that makes sense. Others, in La La Land, may not agree we us.

My first York........I spent just as much money with the bandit meets as I did in the actual show. The sellers were absolutely great outside in the car park and I met some again inside. Very friendly, very helpful and I never heard a wrong word. It seemed to me the sales were brisk and prices very fair. Everyone had the time to chat with me and give me free advice and help. It's these bandit meets that would get me back to York again.

Its to my understanding that the public are allowed in the bandit meets?

Airedale posted:

My first York........I spent just as much money with the bandit meets as I did in the actual show. The sellers were absolutely great outside in the car park and I met some again inside. Very friendly, very helpful and I never heard a wrong word. It seemed to me the sales were brisk and prices very fair. Everyone had the time to chat with me and give me free advice and help. It's these bandit meets that would get me back to York again.

Its to my understanding that the public are allowed in the bandit meets?

Correct.  Since you attended, you know there is not any kind of TCA badge or membership ID checking as you peruse the tables at the bandits. 

They have no association with the TCA, though some sellers do both the bandit meets and the TCA meet.  (at least a few stopped doing the bandits when the TCA meet went to 3 days, and others may have gone the other way, only doing bandits if they did not like the 3 day format for the main meet)

-Dave

After laboring though this long thread; if we get back to basics, the E.D. is taking the steps necessary to preserve the York event.  The E.D. is facing some big challenges in the coming years. The way I view the situation:   Costs to run such a large meet are sizable and have escalated over the years. The attendance and the number of dealers has declined.  Bottom line is that if we are to continue to enjoy this great event, changes are necessary and cannot be avoided.  The E.D. should be applauded for trying new things.  I will most likely return to York again in fall 2017 as a show of support for the E.D.  Its not an inexpensive trip for us by any means but at this point, we all have to contribute towards building attendance . By having an open meet perhaps attendance numbers can rise to the 15,000 mark again.  There are 100's of thousands of model train enthusiasts in the USA, perhaps over 1 million. York only needs 20,000 ( maybe 2%) to be profitable. Here are my suggestions

1. You have to advertise a bit. A billboard or two on Rt 30 might help.

2. Devote one building to HO only trains. HO is still the largest selling segment of the model train market. I dislike them but these enthusiasts do spend money and will help attendance.

3.  Do a large amount of social networking.  Does the E.D have enough of an online presence on Facebook, or twitter????

4. Ask all dealers to put the York info on their websites something like "see us at the largest train meet in the USA on Oct xx xxxx.at York, PA. and.........

5.  Do an email blast to all current and former TCA members.  Its inexpensive to do and you can reach thousands.

6. Data mine email address lists from all the train forums and from the dealer websites. Hit these people with an email as well. In most cases these lists can be provided at a small cost or donated

7.  Always think like a businessman first and a hobbyist second.

 I will most likely return to York again in fall 2017 as a show of support for the E.D. 

Let us know when you rejoin the TCA.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 

1. You have to advertise a bit. A billboard or two on Rt 30 might help.

Isn't "Call for Price" code for "Ain't Cheap?"

Rusty

Dennis LaGrua posted:

7.  Always think like a businessman first and a hobbyist second.

Maybe Greenburg should buy the York franchise. No, wait...Greenburg already runs a York show in January, complete with lots of HO, and plenty of newspaper and direct mail advertising. 

Dennis LaGrua posted:

7.  Always think like a businessman first and a hobbyist second.

The pink Lionel "Girl Train" is an example of this. Also the Lionel 3-D camera, as well as fishing reels.

Joe Hohmann posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

7.  Always think like a businessman first and a hobbyist second.

Maybe Greenburg should buy the York franchise. No, wait...Greenburg already runs a York show in January, complete with lots of HO, and plenty of newspaper and direct mail advertising. 

The Greenberg show last weekend was so well attended, that I had to park 1/2 mile away just to get in. Yes that show is a business and they do include a few HO dealers ( maybe 10%) but no matter how you spin it; ticket revenue/attendance and sales of dealer tables ( and their sales) determine what makes the show possible. 

The Greenberg show is the last remaining large show in NJ  because the people that run it have made the right business moves. Its a public show. Ask the popcorn vendor at the front door why he keeps coming back.  

As for the York event, the ED holds the decisions on the direction that it takes, but one thing cannot be ignored is that change of all things is inevitable.  If you keep doing things the same way you cannot expect a different result.  There are still hundreds of thousands of model railroaders in the USA but the demographic of those that buy the trains is changing.  Reacting and positioning for that change is what will keep the train business going.  As for my comment "think like a business".  If you don't think like a business, then you go out of business.

The Greenberg show last weekend was so well attended, that I had to park 1/2 mile away just to get in.

Gee, is that what we TCA members want at the York show?
So many people that parking is difficult?
So many people that the halls become even more impassible than they were when the show was at it's peak?

Do we want the TCA to loose it's focus on collecting, and become another club for Model Railroaders?
If folks want to belong to a Model Railroading / Operating focused organization, why don't they look to the NMRA, or Toy Train Operating Society?

IMHO, what non-members want is of no importance.

Wife and I had a great time over those three days.  In fact we came home with cash to spare.  Would we do it again? Maybe, but we would fly in and rent a car.  The driving out and back to Iowa was trying, at least for us.  But we found stuff we wanted, met several people by surprise we  knew.

But York for us was a bucket list item we both wanted to experience. I envy those people who live a hop and skip  (say hour or so drive) away from fairgrounds, LUCKY!

My 2 cents.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

... The Greenberg show last weekend was so well attended, that I had to park 1/2 mile away just to get in. Yes that show is a business ...

Dennis, I think it's fair to say that the EDTCA has been open to change in recent years.  Perhaps even enough of a change that members are happy with the direction York is taking.  But the EDTCA will never please everyone -- nor should they try.

The LAST thing the EDTCA should do is turn York into a Greenberg show.  I was so turned off by Greenberg shows years ago, I haven't attended one in probably 10 years or so.  Quite frankly, I don't think I've missed a thing... and have no plans to start attending now either.

York is doing just fine with its recent changes... and we'll see how things go in 2017 with the "open to the public" days.  However, I'll need to rely on reports, since I'll only be there on Thursday, the "members only" day.  And that'll suit me just fine... just the way I like it.  

I get my daily exercise walking my dog throughout the year.  And at York, I typically walk 13,000+ steps in one day INSIDE the halls and between halls.  That certainly works for me.  I don't need to walk the extra half mile just to get into the halls from distant parking in order for me to feel that York is successful.  

David

C W Burfle posted:

Do we want the TCA to loose it's focus on collecting, and become another club for Model Railroaders?
If folks want to belong to a Model Railroading / Operating focused organization, why don't they look to the NMRA, or Toy Train Operating Society?

I think this is a very important question.  Does TCA want to remain a collector's based organization, or be an organization with focus on both collecting and operating?

NMRA, like TCA, is a fine organization, but it is not primarily geared at O gauge trains.  While TCA also includes S and Standard gauge, most collectors would be in the O gauge area.   Not much difference in the trains that we have, only difference is in what we do with them (collect and/or operate.)

If TCA also emphasized operating, then maybe more folks would join the organization.

Jim

If TCA also emphasized operating, then maybe more folks would join the organization.

The last few issues of the TCA Quarterly seemed to have operator centric articles.
What more should the organization do to entice operators? 

One thing is certain: I won't be driving 2 hours for another "Greenberg" type show. I also won't be paying TCA dues to help support it. Like it or not, the original "York Meet" was for "serious", like-minded toy train people to buy, sell, and trade among EACH OTHER. It was not a marketplace for dealers, nor was it geared to getting your neighbor into the hobby. 

Joe, your mouth is working faster than your brain. You will pay your TCA dues.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

Joe Hohmann posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

7.  Always think like a businessman first and a hobbyist second.

Maybe Greenburg should buy the York franchise. No, wait...Greenburg already runs a York show in January, complete with lots of HO, and plenty of newspaper and direct mail advertising. 

The Greenberg show last weekend was so well attended, that I had to park 1/2 mile away just to get in. Yes that show is a business and they do include a few HO dealers ( maybe 10%) but no matter how you spin it; ticket revenue/attendance and sales of dealer tables ( and their sales) determine what makes the show possible. 

The Greenberg show is the last remaining large show in NJ  because the people that run it have made the right business moves. Its a public show. Ask the popcorn vendor at the front door why he keeps coming back...........

The Greenberg's Show Joe mentions that is held in January in the Orange Hall is most definitely not well attended, in spite of their usual advertising. There's no comparison between the Edison, NJ and York Greenberg's Show. The issue is whether advertising will be enough to bring train hobbyists to the Meet in York, no matter who is running it. 

York is not just a train show... its a "Man Venture".

A time to set aside work issues, screaming kids, and the daily grind, and enjoy...at least for me.

I enjoy the people, the visit to Strasburg, and Altoona. A step back in time to relive memories... for me relaxing.

To turn this into a family event would be devastating. I could not imagine dragging the family on a 9 hour drive from H*ll, and getting a look from the wife saying you spent what? And you need to be here... and you need to take the kids there... argh! Only to see the look on their faces and hear "do we have to go. I don't want to go!"

I can only feel for the vendors as a ton of uncontrollable kids are fingering their products and running up and down the halls screaming and yelling... Who is going to buy a post war Lionel train for a 6 year old? He is not going to take care of it.

As a seller of used products why would you go? You can put it all on the bay and not have to lug it back and forth, plus not worry about someone damaging it.

I like the pendulum analogy - as a trade show - opening to the public is the right thing to do - as a swap meet - maybe not the right thing to do.

As any adventure, hang on tight and we will see this April.

J Daddy posted:

Who is going to buy a post war Lionel train for a 6 year old? He is not going to take care of it.

As a seller of used products why would you go? You can put it all on the bay and not have to lug it back and forth, plus not worry about someone damaging it.

 

Unless someone is selling it in the Orange or Purple Halls, there is nothing to worry about.  Those are the only "Public" halls.

MartyE posted:

J Daddy posted:

Who is going to buy a post war Lionel train for a 6 year old? He is not going to take care of it.

As a seller of used products why would you go? You can put it all on the bay and not have to lug it back and forth, plus not worry about someone damaging it.

 

Unless someone is selling it in the Orange or Purple Halls, there is nothing to worry about.  Those are the only "Public" halls.

Correct. And I am not worried. As a seller. I wouldn't sell at York. Even as a dealer.

Unless someone is selling it in the Orange or Purple Halls, there is nothing to worry about.  Those are the only "Public" halls

That is, unless the family decides to take advantage of the one time guest admission to the member halls.
Could they have done so before the dealer halls were opened to the public? ----- yes, but they'd have to know about the show first, and be enticed to attend.

I guess that most families will find the dealers halls to be more than enough, so this probably will not be an issue for anybody.

I wonder how many of those with critical comments above are actually TCA members.  If you are not a TCA member then you should keep quiet since the TCA is really none of your business. 

If you have critical comments of the York show, please mention your TCA membership at the bottom of your post and whether you are a Eastern Division member.  If you are a TCA member, but not in the Eastern Division, then you should also keep quiet and spend your spare time creating a "York" type train show in your division.

I am a TCA member but not in the Eastern Division.  I drive about 3400 miles round trip to the York show.  My first York was in 1991.  If I didn't feel it was a good show, I would stop going.  Obviously they are doing something more right than anyone else, including Greenberg and WGH, et al (can you say high table costs).  

Show me a better train show in the USA for O and S gauge.   As for dealers, what train show has a higher amount of dollars spent per attendee?  What other train show does Lionel, MTH, Ross, Atlas, Charles Ro, Nicolas Smith, Gryzboski Trains, etc, all attend?  I'm listening but just hearing the crickets.

We hear a lot of that "Oh we're just trying to make it better" bull.  You just want it done your way and eliminate anything you personally aren't interested in.  

MartyE posted:

J Daddy posted:

Who is going to buy a post war Lionel train for a 6 year old? He is not going to take care of it.

As a seller of used products why would you go? You can put it all on the bay and not have to lug it back and forth, plus not worry about someone damaging it.

 

Unless someone is selling it in the Orange or Purple Halls, there is nothing to worry about.  Those are the only "Public" halls.

There are a few dealers in the Orange Hall selling VERY expensive vintage/antique German and British  train items. Guess they better move. That will free up space for the Thomas the Tank Engine sellers.

TCA member 05-588XX

Joe Hohmann posted:

There are a few dealers in the Orange Hall selling VERY expensive vintage/antique German and British  train items. Guess they better move. That will free up space for the Thomas the Tank Engine sellers.

TCA member 05-588XX

They'll have to be more careful for sure. You can't please everyone. 

They'll have to be more careful for sure. You can't please everyone. 

Yes, heaven forbid a vendor be able to safely display a collectable at a Train Collectors Association show

My feeling is that the Eastern Div. should have just left well enough alone--keeping the event as a members-only activity and simply adjusting things to meet the somewhat inevitable decrease in participation caused by demographic changes. My guess--and I could certainly be wrong--is that the new policy will not, over time, enhance the event itself or TCA membership.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

.... Here are my suggestions .....

...... HO is still the largest selling segment of the model train market. I dislike them but these enthusiasts do spend money and will help attendance. .....

If I'm disliked by the older gentlemen at York .... I won't go. Ever. No hard feelings.

All my friends .... late 20's and early 30's ..... think I'm kinda strange for playing with these expensive O scale Lionel and Atlas trains, anyway.

I'm constantly amazed by the grouchiness of many of the folks in this hobby and on this forum. Maybe model trains are not for the new generations?

Even though Dennis is normally guilty of stoking this TCA York fire in any way he can, I'm thinking he probably meant he disliked HO scale trains, not necessarily the people who buy them.

Matt01 posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

.... Here are my suggestions .....

...... HO is still the largest selling segment of the model train market. I dislike them but these enthusiasts do spend money and will help attendance. .....

If I'm disliked by the older gentlemen at York .... I won't go. Ever. No hard feelings.

All my friends .... late 20's and early 30's ..... think I'm kinda strange for playing with these expensive O scale Lionel and Atlas trains, anyway.

Sounds normal to me. It was the same way when I was younger. Some things don't change.

I'm constantly amazed by the grouchiness of many of the folks in this hobby and on this forum. Maybe model trains are not for the new generations?

Also sounds normal.
Model trains are for everybody and anybody.
But you cannot make someone like them. Someday the folks who worry about "growing the hobby" may realize this.

Matt01 posted:

I'm constantly amazed by the grouchiness of many of the folks in this hobby and on this forum.

nn

via GIPHY

What?  You want to play with model trains?  You think this is some kind of hobby or something???  

Matt01,

be mindful of the fact that people who are glued to their PC,  blogging on the internet and this forum, probably represent less than 0.01% of the O/S gauge hobby.  Most of the people in the hobby and at York are actually very nice, fun to talk with, and fun to do business with.  You are going to find grumpy hateful people everywhere you go.  

So, by all means you should go to the York show at least once or twice.  I would categorize the York show as an experience instead of a train show.  I personally like to do all the shows from Monday to Saturday.  I've been to a lot of train shows and never seen one that could get within 10% of a comparison to York.  Probably less than half the people on this thread are TCA members, and probably only half of them are Eastern Division members.  So a lot of people squawking about something they have no control over or membership in. 

be mindful of the fact that people who are glued to their PC,  blogging on the internet and this forum, probably represent less than 0.01% of the O/S gauge hobby. 

The TCA and Eastern Division need to remember this too.

"All my friends .... late 20's and early 30's ..... think I'm kinda strange for playing with these expensive O scale Lionel and Atlas trains, anyway."

Same for me too........but now, many who thought that way are scrambling to acquire an engaging hobby as the key to health in retirement......they marvel and delight at the layout (home or modular) and I am constantly asked for advice on Starter sets, for when the grandkids come over........

....and, by all means, come to York if you can......99% of the people are great.....As in life, there are that <1% we could all do without, and being treated poorly from such peopelwill likely have nothing to do with your age...

Peter

Matt01 posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

.... Here are my suggestions .....

...... HO is still the largest selling segment of the model train market. I dislike them but these enthusiasts do spend money and will help attendance. .....

If I'm disliked by the older gentlemen at York .... I won't go. Ever. No hard feelings.

All my friends .... late 20's and early 30's ..... think I'm kinda strange for playing with these expensive O scale Lionel and Atlas trains, anyway.

I'm constantly amazed by the grouchiness of many of the folks in this hobby and on this forum. Maybe model trains are not for the new generations?

I never have hard words about any model railroader and like all the folks in the model train hobby. Everyone is always welcome to stop in and see my layout work. The basis of my comment was made as a suggestion to help York attendance by making the unused hall a place for HO equipment and hobbyists.  HO equipment is not my cup of tea (better wording) but there are many hobbyists who model in this gauge.  Simple suggestion; more table sales and more attendance may help the York event and O gauge die hard's need not worry,  the HO guys could have their own party in the brown hall.

As for the original question "Did the Eastern Division change the York Meet soon enough?  That's a hard question to answer but the opportunity for attendance to increase is certainly there. IMO, it will take a few cycles of shows for those that wish to attend an open meet find out and show up. A large billboard on Rt 30 might help and they are not outrageously expensive for non-profit associations.  I would also suggest that the ED give out flyers and sell tickets to the York event at the TCA Museum all year long.  Flyers on the windshield of those in the TCA parking lot maybe? The museum is a summer/fall attraction that the general public can attend. As for myself I will most likely be back this fall. I guess after all the talking I have done on the subject, the ED and the dealers there deserve some of my money!!!!

The annual Eastern States Exposition show (also known as Springfield, Ma, or Amherst Railway Society) is coming up in a couple of weeks.
It is a great public show, with attendance that dwarfs that of York.
Weather permitting, I attend every year, and have been for well over twenty years.

That written, I would hate to see York turn into a show like that.

I hope that York never turns in to a Big E. Right now I am on my way to Key West on the Silver meteor.

Hope and Change. Wonder if it will work this time.