Dilemma over LHS

Ok, PJB, my reference to , the Local Hobby Shop, which in my case there are only 2, One, Nashville,Tennessee, a nice very well rounded Hobby Store/Toy Store/ in business over 75 plus Years, price Competitive, and the Other, 2 hour Drive in EVANSVILLE, Indiana, similar store  Price Competitive, although neither quite as competitive as our Forum Sponsors, or Advertisers in our favorite Magazine. These stores bend over Backwards to Satisify Our Hobby Needs.  What I am sincerely trying to say is, Give Our Home, or Close to Home Dealers an opportunity to Earn our Business...Its Impossible to buy everything at Our Local Dealers as there are deals out there one has to Explore, close outs, collections for sale, our friends in the Hobby....For BTO, if the pricing is Fair, I stick with my local hobby stores. (Store closing Sales, Special Offers from Big Stores, sometimes are a Must Have)......Yes, this OGR FORUM Keeps Us Informed on, New Products, New Stores, New Ways of Building Our Dream Layouts, WOW!!!!

I am very happy with most every dealer within 350 miles of my home. However, most of my purchases are the ones I referred to earlier...Yes, Price is important, but Not the main Attraction, the men and ladies running these stores are good friends and there is No Price on Friendship....

There are many thoughts on this subject, all Good, the Bottom Line is, Hopefully Our Local Dealers can Survive in these very Challenging Times....When the Going Gets Tough, The Tough Get Going!!!! Happy Railroading....

Lot of good answers here. My LHS gives good services, does discount, and for the most part is friendly.

There is a local gun store that opened up that matches the scenario you described. List price for everything.

I went in and told them that as much as I liked their products and displays I could not justify in some cases paying $80 to $100 more for the same item purchased elsewhere.

Here is my line, "I understand that you are in business to make money and I don't mind paying a little more - but you don't need to try to make it all up in one sale!"

Well I guess I am blessed out here in the South Bay area here in So Cal.  Were have two great shops that never charge full retail Arnie's and The Train Crossing.  Arnie's doesn't do repairs but The Train Crossing does at un-beatable prices. They both offer Lionel and MTH at great prices and their customer service is totally awesome.  

dkdkrd posted:

p51 posted:

I think a LHS is best for:

• Magazines that you can't get at the local Barnes and Noble magazine section (even though the B&N nearest me has a lot of model train mags). If a hobby shop wouldn't stock the standards for the hobby, count me out.
• Being able to see the stuff in person and not just in a magazine/online photo, to see if it's really what you want.
• Little stuff you wouldn't pay postage to get (one set of extra couplers, single can/bottle of paint or other little item you only need that and nothing else right now).

 

wow......

Thank you for your sincerity?  

Surely you can't believe that a 'LHS' purveying these "best" services to a hobbyist could support a proprietor and, perhaps, his family, pay taxes, employ anyone...any one....else, build a retirement, purchase health insurance/home/car/etc.???   

Or can you?

It's really interesting reading your bullet list....the second comment in particular.  Since our (LHS) owner actually experienced this, it brings a lot of credence...but zero cash, of course...to your thought.  It went like this....

At the peak of the value of small shops...Local Hobby Shops, in particular...you know, before the advent/growth of online sales...our boss had established 5 hobby shops within our state, all of them owned/financed personally by himself.  Then, between manufacturing jobs (providing the 'discretionary income' as well as local traffic that supported the shops) leaving forever, online competition, deteriorating local/state/national economy, rising costs-of-living, etc., etc., blah, blah,.....he began to close the stores....one by one.   

As the boss was ringing the cash register during the final blow-out sales days of one store's closing, a customer...probably not really knowing that he was addressing the store's owner....said, in effect, 'Gee!  I'm really sad to see this store closing!  I enjoyed coming here to see the new items before searching best prices on-line!'  

True story....sadly told by our boss.  It's what we now refer to as the 'museum syndrome' in the business.....coming to see with no intent to purchase.   'Kicking tires' is another old way of putting it.

Even though we post MSRP for items, we're prepared to help the customers with some price concessions when we can....and because we know many of our customers are in the same ark, financially.  But, too often we (he) simply cannot compete with the faceless likes of on-line competition, volume buyers, less costly real estate and retail trappings, etc..  

And, so, the remaining two stores are, perhaps, on borrowed time.  

Magazines?  Dusty displays?  Bottles of paint, tubes of glue?   That's the value of a Local Hobby Shop?

Oy vey.

KD

Like Lee (P51), I mostly visit the local train store, in town to buy trucks, couplers, magazines or roadbed & usually buy expensive models from online dealers, real stores, some of them sponsors of this forum, who also have an online store & offer the best prices like Charles Ro for Lionel models, Just Trains for MTH models & Caboose Stop Hobbies (& occasionally others) for Atlas models.

Why do you like Rider’s so much? The first time I found them on Yellow Pages, 12 years ago, even their address was not correct, maybe because they moved their store around a lot. They were listed as being in downtown Ann Arbor when they were in Ypsi.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

dkdkrd posted:

p51 posted:

I think a LHS is best for:

• Magazines that you can't get at the local Barnes and Noble magazine section (even though the B&N nearest me has a lot of model train mags). If a hobby shop wouldn't stock the standards for the hobby, count me out.
• Being able to see the stuff in person and not just in a magazine/online photo, to see if it's really what you want.
• Little stuff you wouldn't pay postage to get (one set of extra couplers, single can/bottle of paint or other little item you only need that and nothing else right now).

 

wow......

Thank you for your sincerity?  

Surely you can't believe that a 'LHS' purveying these "best" services to a hobbyist could support a proprietor and, perhaps, his family, pay taxes, employ anyone...any one....else, build a retirement, purchase health insurance/home/car/etc.???   

Or can you?

It's really interesting reading your bullet list....the second comment in particular.  Since our (LHS) owner actually experienced this, it brings a lot of credence...but zero cash, of course...to your thought.  It went like this....

Supporting any business isn't my responsibility. This is where your argument fails.

It's the business's responsibility to provide the stuff, service and prices that will bring people back. That's for them to figure out.

Not my problem.

When they do so, I buy from them. When they cease to do so, I don't. Simple as that.

Again, not my problem.

So, it costs money to open and run a business? Wow, thanks for the comically obvious heads-up.

Oh, that's so not my problem.

Frankly, I'm sick to the gut of this whole argument that the customers are responsible for the survival of the business itself. In terms of cash flow to keep it going, well, yeah, they are. In the end, the business needs to properly judge the market, and stock/price accordingly. Heck, I've seen hobby shops go under and I was happy for it. Many hobby shops were run by surly, self-centered jerks who treated the place like a clubhouse and the customers as irritants. We all know the type. Mail order killed many of them and I'm not the least bit sorry to see those go.

Yet again, not my problem.

Can't handle the stress of running a hobby shop? Hey, I hear there are other companies hiring right now.

My bullet comments were for what I value in a hobby shop. Tacoma trains is a good example, and the second bullet comment (which oddly set you off) is why I bought thousands of dollars in stock from them over the 2 years of my layout build and long before, buying things I either didn't know existed until I saw them in person, or saw them and realized, "Hey, this is better looking than I thought it'd be" and led to a purchase. Almost all my rolling stock was bought there.

Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I'm not a collector, so I don't make big dollar model train purchases with frequency. Once I had the locos I needed for the layout, I stopped buying them. So, I stand fast with that (apparently offending) second bullet comment, and the rest of them.

I have only one LHS (Used to be two, but the other guy retired from the retail world and liquidated everything.) and he lists everything at MSRP.  But he does give regulars a 10% discount.  This is fine for me when I got to get stuff like buildings and freight cars.  But as for high priced locomotives, I have ordered online.  When I could get the VLBB with caboose, aux tender, and Legacy 990 command set for less than MSRP with 10% discount of the VLBB, I of course bought it online.  But this last time I did order a lower priced locomotive from him because of the experiences I've had of late with NIB locomotives being DOA or having other issues.  Now I have to pay for shipping back and wait for a repair or a replacement.  The LHS opens, lubes, and otherwise preps all new locomotives bought through them so that when picked up by the new owner they are ready to roll.  To me the extra price I'll pay is worth knowing that when I get home the locomotive is ready to run.

DKDKRD et al.,

My last posts were aimed at folks here who are making this sort of "personal."  The poor LHS owner versus the cold consumer who is buying elsewhere because of discounts with which the LHS can't compete.   This is the myopic "in-fighting" debate I've seen before that is sort of silly if we really think about it.  

My point was more about the overall business model.  If the (say) Lionels/MTHs of the world need stores to showcase their products to optimize selling but can't offer the store owner a viable model for a successful toy train business, then either (a) the toy train store goes out of business, which harms both the entrepreneur and Lionel/MTH, and Lionel/MTH needs to rethink its model, or (b) Lionel/MTH should find another selling outlet, such as Walmart of whatever.  

By the way, what about the LHS store owner's role in all of  this?  Shouldn't he have had enough business sense to recognize an inherent flaw in the model and either have picked another business or, if already in the biz, evolve diversify (sell RC or whatever) or exit?    You may also recall that I said I was buying from stores other than my LHS, and even named two. The fact is, there are myriad stores that offer competitive pricing. Anecdotally, I never buy pricey items from internet sellers (except for eBay on rare occasion when stores no longer carry the item).  

So is it really the evil internet seller ruining the poor LHS owners life?  Or could it be a shortcoming in the overall model or the LHS owner's business acumen?   To me,  blaming the internet is sometimes fair, but sometimes just a handy excuse by people who can't face the facts about the business model or can't accept that some people know how to make their LHS successful and others shouldn't be entrepreneurs.  

"Enough said for now.  No disagreement with your premises here.  Again, I appreciate your sincerity."

finis

LangsTrains posted:

If margins are only 30% I don't understand how one can find the polar express for 260. I've read repeatedly that margins are very thin and apparently there are different tiers from lionel. Marios still has it for $260 with free shipping plus there are credit card/PayPal fees. Msrp is 400. It's a moot point for me because LTS has prices over msrp and suspect cs. I would just assume that places like marios hopes for additional purchases to make up difference. A move that is probably accurate in my case.

That's right. Because the big dealers pay less for the product than the small dealers. That's a fact.

I live a very short drive from a "Top 10 Lionel Dealer." I never received that warm, hobby shop feeling from them. Nor, do I get much of a discount, if at all. So, I never go there. It is HIS business decision. Shame.

But, I buy everything online from "brick & motor" shops only. Unless I'm forced to do otherwise. Most of my O stuff comes from Nicholas Smith Trains .... I like them.

It's fun to find new places, too. I was out-bid on a long-out-of-stock Atlas tank car earlier this afternoon. I did a lengthy search on the internet and found a place in Pewaukee Wisconsin, Hiawatha Hobbies. Had both road numbers in stock, at a discounted price.

EBT Jim posted:

 

It's fun to find new places, too. I was out-bid on a long-out-of-stock Atlas tank car earlier this afternoon. I did a lengthy search on the internet and found a place in Pewaukee Wisconsin, Hiawatha Hobbies. Had both road numbers in stock, at a discounted price.

I have been to Hiawatha Hobbies.  They have a lot of new and old stock.  It is a good store. There are closer shops to me, but I like to look around. I have also been to Nicholas Smith. I stopped in while I was traveling on business.  They gave me a nice discount, so I actually bought more and had them ship it to my home. Nice people. Chicagoland Hobbies is my main store. They don't give me a discount, but they are helpful and order stuff for me, such as track. I buy a lot of old stuff in online auctions, and I shop at various forum sponsors' online stores. I usually buy stuff at the stores I visit. 

Jim R. posted:

LangsTrains posted:

If margins are only 30% I don't understand how one can find the polar express for 260. I've read repeatedly that margins are very thin and apparently there are different tiers from lionel. Marios still has it for $260 with free shipping plus there are credit card/PayPal fees. Msrp is 400. It's a moot point for me because LTS has prices over msrp and suspect cs. I would just assume that places like marios hopes for additional purchases to make up difference. A move that is probably accurate in my case.

That's right. Because the big dealers pay less for the product than the small dealers. That's a fact.

Retail marketing and promotions can get complicated.  Lionel may be offering some dealer promotion, "sell 10 sets and we will give you $100 in local advertising dollars. Sell 25 sets and we give you something even better." It really depends on the promotion and how the dealer can take advantage. It would be interesting to know what dealer promotions Lionel is running right now to see if this is impacting the pricing.

Why the dilemma. If you are looking for the lowest price you will never buy from the LHS. It's your money, spend as you like. Just remember, there's more to this hobby than the lowest price. If it's a great shop try to support it.

Rod Miller

George S posted:

EBT Jim posted:

 

It's fun to find new places, too. I was out-bid on a long-out-of-stock Atlas tank car earlier this afternoon. I did a lengthy search on the internet and found a place in Pewaukee Wisconsin, Hiawatha Hobbies. Had both road numbers in stock, at a discounted price.

I have been to Hiawatha Hobbies.  They have a lot of new and old stock.  It is a good store. There are closer shops to me, but I like to look around. I have also been to Nicholas Smith. I stopped in while I was traveling on business.  They gave me a nice discount, so I actually bought more and had them ship it to my home. Nice people. Chicagoland Hobbies is my main store. They don't give me a discount, but they are helpful and order stuff for me, such as track. I buy a lot of old stuff in online auctions, and I shop at various forum sponsors' online stores. I usually buy stuff at the stores I visit. 

I work at Hiawatha Hobbies (actually in Waukesha with a Pewaukee postal address) part time (most Sundays). Erv and Jeanette have owned it for nearly 30 years , and their son Glen has run it most of his adult life. 

Yes, Glen does discount prices where he can. Numerous sale prices are evident, and he offers club discounts on non-sale items. He also has to maintain list prices on some items because of his margins and limited discounts from dealers -- discounts that are growing ever smaller.

He takes in repairs, often doing some basic troubleshooting himself. He also has attended seminars on DCC installations.

He sells via the internet, takes special orders, does sales in radio-control vehicles and traditional 1:32, 1:43 and smaller slot cars, plus some general interest categories, in more than 4,000 square feet of space.

He does a decent business in all scales of trains, from Z to G, and has deep inventory in a brick-and-mortar store, and employs four part-timers.

And yet he still can't get the price that top 10 Lionel dealers get. Not for any other reason other than a pricing system that favors large volume sales. See the problem?

Be aware of such realities before considering the price structure of your local hobby shop. 

Great store! The HO folks are well taken care of as well.  It is not all about price.  You may be working on a project and need something.  You can wait or go to Hiawatha Hobbies to get it. 

Well, l guess l am lucky...since maybe the Consolidation offered by Weaver was the last interesting to me loco available.... certainly all the DOA stories on here do not incite me to buy uninteresting prototypes that may not work. Of course, since that boom period when the tent was up behind the Billy Budd, the few train shops for miles around have vanished, meaning there is nowhere reasonably close to go look at trains.  With nothing interesting new, dwindling train shows leave only the internet, whichoffers historical and used.