Factory Mounted Franklin engine on eBay

I don't think there is any record of how many were made.  Rare is a vague descriptive term anyway.  This presentation item was not a production piece so I would call it very rare.  These do not have a motor in them or an E-Unit.  A friend of mine has one.

It should sell for over $1,000. 

I recall reading somewhere the first few displays did have a motor in them, then ACG came up with a spacer to hold the cab roof bracket in place (keeps the shell on) as it mounts to the back of the motor. I'd love to see how they did that. $1K, Yikes!! Think I'll scrounge up some parts and make my own! I wonder if any of "the first 50" were made into displays? I do have an Atlantic with a threaded hole in the chassis bottom, I'm told that some Prestone Car Care engines were also mounted, and the screw hole indicates I have the chassis from one; unfortunately I don't have the rest of it!

I can't find it on eBay can you show the link here please?

sold. Think it was in the high $500 range.

Here's the link, it sold (with shipping for $585. I think the heavy fading on one side kept the value down; But, what do I know? http://www.ebay.com/itm/351982...e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

That's a really neat looking little engine, however the extensions beneath the cab sides really detracts. I suppose those are in place to hid portions of the mechanism?

laming posted:

That's a really neat looking little engine, however the extensions beneath the cab sides really detracts. I suppose those are in place to hid portions of the mechanism?

Andre,

Exactly.  The mechanism hangs down close to the rails, and there's not a lot of room in the cab for the motor, which is based on a typical open frame motor of the day.  It does look nice, but the proportions are closer to O than S.  There were two variations of the locomotive, the Franklin, which was a passenger train with three cars, and the Washington, painted in different colors, a freight with its own consist.  I bought a boxed Franklin set a long time ago and run it very infrequently.  The smoke stack is higher than the other cars in the Gilbert roster, and clearances are tight.  They also tend to make a bit more noise than the typical Gilbert steamer, and I'm not referring to the "chuff" feature.

Yes, the mechanism is noisier than the Atlantics (same chassis) and I assume it has to do with the boiler shell somehow amplifying the gear and motor noise. Maybe (just now thought of this) it's the bracket to the cab roof, acting like a sound board? Will have to experiment on one to see if isolating it helps. The shell doesn't seem to amplify the smoke unit's choo-choo feature! Franklinstein Because ACG used existing tooling to make these engines, they are more O or larger Scale, as are the cars. The sets were really designed to be marketed by themselves, not as part of the ACG scale line. Early railroad engines and cars were really small compared to the later stuff. I notice the one Mark pictured has dummy coupler on it, or the weight has fallen off. I wish someone would photograph how they made the cab roof bracket fit the chassis without a motor in it.

One sold on the Goodwill website for $641.00 back in July.  The smokestack was broken off but was included and would have been an easy fix.  Otherwise it was in decent shape.  

Dean

You can see there is no wire in these presentation pieces between engine and tender.  Never meant to go anywhere but on the board.

The smoke and chuff is less because it's an HO smoke unit. The running noise has a lot to do with the cheaper split chassis design.

Rich

I have Atlantics and Pacifics with the split chassis, no more noise than the regular chassis, I think it has to do with the Franklin shell or with the roof mount bracket amplifying the noise.

Yes, the "production run" of these has no electrics in them. Only apparently the first couple of them did (from what I've read). I know the engine is held in place with a screw up to  the chassis, just behind the front driver. In that picture it looks like there might be a screw just in front of the rear tender truck front axle holding it down. Anyone have one to look at? I can also see what appears to be a piece of metal inside the first cab window, maybe they used a specially made bracket for the roof screw for these?

Here are pics of the one I mentioned above sold on the Goodwill website.  You can see there is no motor in this one, and the coupler appears to be a solid one.

Dean

These pictures are very helpful. You can see the two screws through the base, so that answers my question about the tender's mounting. The picture showing the engine and smokestack appears to show part of the mounting bracket through the cab's windows. Now, I would really like to see a picture of the inside of the cab, but based on what I see here is (other than the prototype(s) this appears to be a "special run" of the Franklin, with no electrical parts, a dummy coupler truck (and, it appears, tender trucks with no metal wheels), a special cab roof support bracket. It would be easy enough to pull shells and chassis of the regular assembly line, and the rear trucks at least out of the dummy coupler freight car trucks bin, but some tooling was needed for the cab roof support bracket, and (of course) the bases and nameplate. The track is one full section and one half-section of straight track. And then someone would have to cut the rubber roadbed in half for the short section. Notice they didn't use an extra-long straight, as they did on some of the factory layouts. So, how "scarce" (some folks abhor the use of the word "rare") are these? It would depend on how many were made. With the special construction of the locomotive itself for the display, I would suspect at least 50, maybe 100?? Maybe 500?? Remember this was still in the hey-days of toy trains (A recent article I read stated that in 1950, a car production run could be as high as 20,000, whereas nowadays 2,000 is considered huge). So, the next question is Survivability. These weren't toys played with by children (or adults!), but were "shelf" pieces, they would likely have a higher ratio of survivability, say as much as 50% so somewhere between 25 to maybe 250 exist today? I will admit, that above is a lot of conjecture. Would love to hear from anyone with more information. Would really like to see some detail photographs showing the mounting and the inside of the cab. The Goodwill photos seem to indicate the stack had a plug in it (or that could be a failed repair job, so there's another detail to look for!

I just noticed that the track is nailed to the base by the holes in the ties, but it doesn't appear to be at every tie. From the pilot end it appears to be the first, third and fifth tie and maybe the 6th? Need better pics!

Here's a few more pics of the one that Mark indicated sold for $700.

Dean

Well, this last batch of pics answers a few more questions; it appears the track is nailed down on the (from the pilot end) 1, 3, 5, & 6 ties, also no metal wheels on the tender, even appear to be the recessed center wheels. The pulmor tires are on the drivers, and the bracket for the cab is screwed on to the chassis at the motor mount screw hole on the fireman's side: can't tell what's happening on the engineer's side, could just be a hole in the bracket over the mounting nub, or?? Also, a lot of the shape of the bracket can be seen. Very interesting! (and not stuuupid--laugh In line)

According to the Greenbergs Catalog COLLECTORS BOOKS & Pricing Guide Hard Bound there were 50 of the made to celebrate Fifty years of American Flyer Trains and The AC Gilbert Manufacturing Company. The collectable Part that stood out in the Wood Bunker of the tender there were the words One of The First Fifty in Block letters in white stamped. You Have found all the other things that differed. If it didn't have the letters in the tender it wasn't original and a collector would pass on it.

Don

Don,

One of the first fifty was stamped in the tender of the first 50 Frontiersman sets made. The engine also had different attachments holding the  handrail on. The set box also had a gold seal applied to the box lid stating one of the first fifty. Since starting collecting in the late 70's I have seen only two examples. Extremely rare as compared to the display above.

 

Rich

Interesting point Don, but I don't think all of the presentation Franklins were "One of the First Fifty." I thought a few of those (First Fifty) were actually operating engines, but being a display piece does seem more logical. Logical?? Where's Spock when you need him?

Had a near mint one for many years, might have gotten it from Trost Hobby as well as the near mint No. 4622 set with a letter of provenance from the original owner.  Also, had a set of original blueprints for this set.  Enjoyed owning it!