Fire

Scary stuff. Glad there wasn't more damage.

Scott Smith

Thank you for the heads up. Yes I NEVER leave the room with the trains running. I had an incident with a 2-8-8-2 in reverse that derailed the rear trailing trucks, the pick up wire started to glow red and ignited the paint on the bottom of the engine...

Do you have any circuit protection? A properly adjusted postwar Lionel #91 electromagnetic circuit breaker would have tripped instantly.

My train room is pretty small, 9' x 11'. So just outside the door is the fire extinguisher.

I do have circuit protection, but I had the fire out with in seconds.  If  the breaker had activated the fire would have been already ignited. This was a very fast event.

It's surprising how fast a fire can start.   (stuck uncoupler  button etc) Thanks for the reminder...

Schumann -

I don't know if you use command control with a constant 18 or so volts to the track, but I do, and this fact has opened up some opportunities for electrical accidents in small, non-specific ways.

I have had my wrist burned (just a bit red) from shorting the track with my wrist watch band while fiddling with some equipment - I'm not alone, of course; command control situations tend to foster quick and dirty "working/repairing in a live wire environment" more than do variable voltage (conventional) practices.

The amperage and voltage of our transformers are often surprising when something goes wrong - and your hot-spring situation is pretty scary.    

This is why I like the Lionel 180 bricks. Instant shutdown.

Romiller 

I'm with Ron, the PH180 bricks trip in a flash, very unlikely to start a fire.  Not impossible, just unlikely.

I would note that currents below the ratings of the circuit breakers we use, usually 10 amps or so, can easily start a fire if there is thin wire in the circuit, or if the point of contact is tiny.  9 amps can generate a lot of heat.

Maybe we should have AFCI Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters on the output side of our transformers.  Does somebody want to develop one? 

Another good reason why I always have a open can of beer close to the layout

The culprit was a Lionel Legacy M1B 4-8-2  running on 18 volts of constant power. Why it did not short out the MTH Z4000 is beyond me. The fire,  by the time I got to the other side of the layout,  was flaming 7 to 8 inches high.  I had to replace one section of Atlas O track.

I don't think amps and a direct short act the same for tripping. 

Romiller 

Nairb Rekab posted:

Another good reason why I always have a open can of beer close to the layout

That's a very good plan!

RJR posted:

I would note that currents below the ratings of the circuit breakers we use, usually 10 amps or so, can easily start a fire if there is thin wire in the circuit, or if the point of contact is tiny.  9 amps can generate a lot of heat.

Another good reason I am keeping my latest MTH Ca1's on the shelf.

Baking Soda or an ABC rated fire extinguisher would be a better choice than beer or soda pop.

I have found out that my MTH bricks and Digitrax DCC  power supply trip very fast and will not reset with a short still there.

Schumann posted:

The culprit was a Lionel Legacy M1B 4-8-2  running on 18 volts of constant power. Why it did not short out the MTH Z4000 is beyond me. The fire,  by the time I got to the other side of the layout,  was flaming 7 to 8 inches high.  I had to replace one section of Atlas O track.

So, no damage to the locomotive, just the track? If that was the outcome, you are a lucky guy. You made me rethink where my extinguisher is.

Tom

Now I'm really concerned. My trains are powered by a Z4000. The OP's scenario demonstrates that you can have a partial short that doesn't trip the over current protection, but can start a fire.

D500 posted:

Schumann -

 

I have had my wrist burned (just a bit red) from shorting the track with my wrist watch band while fiddling with some equipment - I'm not alone, of course; command control situations tend to foster quick and dirty "working/repairing in a live wire environment" more than do variable voltage (conventional) practices.

 

Been there done that.

But to add insult to injury it wasn't my watchband but my medical alert bracelet. 

Atlas Switch motor, before I installed the 6924 relay boards.  

I always check the screws on my engines and tenders before I run them and like these guys said have fast acting magnetic circuit breakers or 7.5 -10 amp fuses in-line. 10amp fuses always worked for me. When I had my PW-ZW, I used fuses. Now I have a ZW-C with two PH180 bricks with circuit breakers which works great. They react immediately.

I would note that currents below the ratings of the circuit breakers we use, usually 10 amps or so, can easily start a fire if there is thin wire in the circuit, or if the point of contact is tiny.  9 amps can generate a lot of heat.

Another issue is the type of breaker.
As I understand the issue, many of the breakers used in the toy train world are thermal, meaning they work by having a bi-metallic strip heat up and bend to open the contacts. That takes time.
It sounds like the 180 bricks have some sort of electronic breaker that works quickly
The postwar Lionel #91 is electromagnetic and also works quickly.

Judging by what has been posted here, there are a number of quick acting breakers available.

Along with C.W.  largest fuse on my layout is 7.5 amps (Track circuits).  Most accessories are 3 amps or less. 

Note the fuse blocks upper left, (Track circuits).  Right is accessory fuses. 

The 6924 Atlas switch relay boards were rated at 8 amps/ track circuits (7.5amps). I still had trouble frying traces on the boards and later added 3 amp fuses to the track circuits of the boards, some boards with (2) circuits required two fuses.  

Note the fuse/fuse blocks associated with each board.

Both PH135's and PH180's can be paralleled for additional track power.  Pictured is parallel PH 135's about 15 amps before they will trip,  PH 180's paralleled 20 amps.   The Fort Pitt High Railers  older Z 4000 had tripped so many times they eventually would not work.  Both Z 4000 went back for repair.   Not work =  Would not open. 

Both Silver boxes,  Lionel TPC's (Track Power Controller)'s have 20 amp resets.  I've never had one open. 

I had a Fasttrack uncoupling button stick and thanks to the Lionel 180 brick that tripped no damage done.

Makes me think about fires, which have had a big influence in my life. This raises the question of whether residential building codes should be revised to include a requirement for sprinkler systems, as in all public/commercial buildings.  Thousands (about 3300 in 2014) of people die each year, many of them children, in residential fires that likely would not be fatal if we had safety measures universally in place.  Hard to retrofit, I know. Expensive.  But so is $11.6 billion in property damage, 3300 deaths, and an equivalent sum or more in medical costs,  not to mention the pain and suffering of 15,000 injuries.

Mike CT posted:

Along with C.W.  largest fuse on my layout is 7.5 amps (Track circuits).  Most accessories are 3 amps or less. 

Note the fuse blocks upper left, (Track circuits).  Right is accessory fuses. 

The 6924 Atlas switch relay boards were rated at 8 amps/ track circuits (7.5amps). I still had trouble frying traces on the boards and later added 3 amp fuses to the track circuits of the boards, some boards with (2) circuits required two fuses.  

Note the fuse/fuse blocks associated with each board.

Both PH135's and PH180's can be paralleled for additional track power.  Pictured is parallel PH 135's about 15 amps before they will trip,  PH 180's paralleled 20 amps.   The Fort Pitt High Railers  older Z 4000 had tripped so many times they eventually would not work.  Both Z 4000 went back for repair.   Not work =  Would not open. 

Both Silver boxes,  Lionel TPC's (Track Power Controller)'s have 20 amp resets.  I've never had one open. 

Mike, that is a serious setup you got there. Do you have any pictures of the layout this runs? The wiring alone looks very tedious. I like it.

Landsteiner posted:

Makes me think about fires, which have had a big influence in my life. This raises the question of whether residential building codes should be revised to include a requirement for sprinkler systems, as in all public/commercial buildings.  Thousands (about 3300 in 2014) of people die each year, many of them children, in residential fires that likely would not be fatal if we had safety measures universally in place.  Hard to retrofit, I know. Expensive.  But so is $11.6 billion in property damage, 3300 deaths, and an equivalent sum or more in medical costs,  not to mention the pain and suffering of 15,000 injuries.

I agree 100%, but the reality is the average person can not afford to do that and someone on a fixed income can not afford it either. Insurance companies will not be quick to pay for it. It's a tragedy when something like that happens.

My biggest concern about fires is caused by the button sticking on the Lionel fastrack uncouplers (although this could happen with any brand). The heat builds up until the plastic track melts. I have always been close enough to kill the power to the layout before any fire has started. When you smell the melting plastic and turn off the layout power, you then go around and find the stuck button.

I have since replaced all the factory supplied pushbuttons with a more reliable design purchased at an electronics supply store. I also added an LED circuit that lights up RED when the uncoupler is activated, just in case an uncoupler happens to get stuck "on", I can see the problem and deal with it before any damage occursI have also added an indicator light to each transformer feed, so when I leave the train room, I am easily reminded that I have left something "ON", as the indicator lights should be OFF if the transformer supply power is also off.

Over on the electrical forum, under a thread on removing slide shoes from operating cars, PLCPROF mentions he uses a type of fuse in feeds to uncoupling tracks, with a rating of less than current draw, that opens after a few seconds.  He didn't provide more details.

A current sensor can also be used in the feed to uncoupling controllers, to open after a few seconds.  I put together such a prototype circuit, but haven't gone further with it.

Landsteiner, there are few problems that can't be solved with enough money.  It would cost a fortune to cut into walls and ceiling of an average home to install a sprinkler system, and if it were made mandatory, many homeowners would lose their homes through mortgage default.  Changing building codes to require sprinkler systems in new construction is easier.  Fairfax County Virginia has such a requirement for townhouses.

I note that many persons don't have operating smoke detectors, which are cheap enough.  Putting one in a train room is not a bad idea.

Reading some of the other posts above, not using smoke and having converted passenger cars to LEDs,, I find 5-amp breakers on most track circuits, and 7.5 on the one that often has 3-4 trains running, is quite enough.  I also question whether any layout needs 20 amps available on the tracks.  If one is running many trains, it is better from both an electrical distribution and a safety perspective, to have multiple blocks with circuit protection on blocks rather than on only "power districts."

The point about putting breakers or fuses on accessory circuits should not be overlooked.  Over the last 70 years, I've had a few shorts.

Having been at scenes of fires, of my former profession, I can state that a fire can roar out of control in a matter of seconds!!!
Ralph

"Landsteiner, there are few problems that can't be solved with enough money.  It would cost a fortune to cut into walls and ceiling of an average home to install a sprinkler system, and if it were made mandatory, many homeowners would lose their homes through mortgage default.  Changing building codes to require sprinkler systems in new construction is easier.  Fairfax County Virginia has such a requirement for townhouses."

Obviously new construction is a no brainer.  Also for renovations of kitchens, the major source of fires, it could be another good cost benefit approach.  Smoke detectors with 10 year or longer batteries are something that could be a cheap requirement in bedrooms and kitchens of existing homes, but they are not mandatory in many places. 

We're complacent about  having 3,000 plus people die in fires and 35,000 plus people die in car crashes and pedestrian hits because we don't want to spend the money to fix the problem in some cases, and didn't have the technology to do so until now.  Now the technology is available to avoid most of those 3,000 fire deaths, and will soon be available to prevent most of those 35,000 car crash deaths.  It will be money well spent, and perhaps actually be a net savings when the medical costs, lost wages, repairs to homes and automobiles, etc. are accounted for.  All we need is the brains, wisdom, will and flexibility to mandate the safety equipment necessary over the coming years.

JDaddy, what's the use of having such a nice caboose if you're afraid to run it?

Here is a list of some of the PTC resettable fuses that some forum members are using for protecting their devices. There is also the PSX-AC electronic breaker that trips quite quickly for anyone not using the PH-180 bricks or the Lionel #91's. I use both the PH-180's and PSX-AC's. The PSX-AC's trip before the PH-180's, so they are slightly faster (I have no experience with the Lionel #91's). To be fair here I have the PSX-AC's set to trip at 8 amps. The next setting, I believe is 12 amps (without looking it up). The PSX-ACs are available from Charles Ro or Tony's Train Exchange. Part numbers for the PTC's are listed in the linked thread.

I don't know if these items would prevent a fire as described by the OP, but they certainly might be worth looking into. Anything one can do to prevent a fire or protect your train electronics is worth checking into, IMO. You can then decide for yourself, after checking out the information, whether any of these items would improve your protection or not.

We had done wiring on some upscale residential housing in the Beaver Valley  for handicap occupancy.  The homes had egress sprinkler systems, that involved tanked water in the basement and a fire pump system.  Only enough water and deterrent to allow safe egress.  Large scale sprinkler systems for residential use, would involve some pretty heavy duty water main systems and feed lines to homes, which in most cases, especially rural, don't exist.  There is a lot to be considered when you talk sprinkler system, and reduction of property damage.  You will see as part of the NEC (National Electrical Code) Interconnected smoke detectors, along with at least one CO detector as current code, Pennsylvania UCC (Universal Construction Code).  Good,  very good, warning systems are relatively economical.  IMO. 

Joe K posted:

My biggest concern about fires is caused by the button sticking on the Lionel fastrack uncouplers (although this could happen with any brand). The heat builds up until the plastic track melts. I have always been close enough to kill the power to the layout before any fire has started. When you smell the melting plastic and turn off the layout power, you then go around and find the stuck button.

I have since replaced all the factory supplied pushbuttons with a more reliable design purchased at an electronics supply store. I also added an LED circuit that lights up RED when the uncoupler is activated, just in case an uncoupler happens to get stuck "on", I can see the problem and deal with it before any damage occursI have also added an indicator light to each transformer feed, so when I leave the train room, I am easily reminded that I have left something "ON", as the indicator lights should be OFF if the transformer supply power is also

Been there Joe, I got a new uncoupling track because the button on the first one stuck and it started smoking. Good thing I was standing there and turn off the main power to the layout. hose button are really cheap. I'm going to get a better one at Radio Shack. There is one here that isn't closed.

RJR posted:

I would note that currents below the ratings of the circuit breakers we use, usually 10 amps or so, can easily start a fire if there is thin wire in the circuit, or if the point of contact is tiny.  9 amps can generate a lot of heat.

I concur with RJR for this situation. The spring provided enough resistance to get hot and glow (think smoke unit wire wound resistor) and start the fire without drawing enough amps to kick the breaker.

Heed SCHUMANN's warning and pay attention to any springs on your engines or rolling stock.

Moonman, I can't disagree with you, but when one has many engines & much rolling stock, how can one inspect frequently enough?  For example, when coming in with a car, whop goes underneath to check tie rods and other running gear?

After reading this thread and the fact that my first uncoupling track started smoking when the button stuck, the second track was working fine, but why take chances.  I went to Radio Shack (yes there is one open here) and bought a better button and another project box. The first project box had switches to turn the power on and off on my train yard tracks. Now they are all together on one box.