Gauge of wire? Stranded vs. solid for Tortoise machines?

Kenny, I used CAT5 to wire my Tortoises, love the stuff. You can run pretty long distances with it. I haven't checked for voltage drop, but they work so I'm happy. I picked up a 1000' spool at Menards for $75.

     Well I am a dummy and was not thinking the farthest I will have to go is 30-35ft. from the control panel to the 1 switch motor on the back of the upper part of the layout. I forgot about length = power drop the farther you go away from the power supply. Choo Choo Kenny

There your answer right their below. 

OGR forum it has been suggested that 18, 22 and 24 gauge wire will work for wiring up the Tortoise switch machines. What should I get? Also I know that stranded wire is better than solid wire but all I can find in the smaller gauge is solid.

It's your Call !

Good luck,John

Visit the website www.tektel.com . Look under tab for security wire 22 ga..They offer either 2 conductor or 4 conductor either solid or stranded in 500' or 1000' rolls packed in pullout box makes running wire easier. I use the solid wire and 66 style connector block for wiring switch motors. If you want standard telephony 4 pair wire no need for Cat 5 use Cat 3 with vinyl sheath not plenum sheath it is much cheaper and works the same. The 500' 4 conductor list for $29.50 per box or 1000' box for $46.50. The 2 conductor is slightly cheaper but I would use the 4 conductor leaving a pair spare that could be used to connect to the relay contacts to provide turnout indication for different applications if you needed. Visit my website www.montanarailpower.com  and look at the different wiring configurations for tortoise switch motors under the wiring tab.

I am trying to wire some dz-1000 switch machines to a aiu.  Going to wire ten of them. I want to keep the wires color coded like the switch machine so I can trace them later if I have to. I assume I need 22 gauge.  Not sure if I need stranded or solid.  Thoughts?  Also,  is this available in any brick and mortar store?  I can only find it online.

Thanks.

 

 

Bought this last yr on the auction website,

22/4 Cable, CAT 3, 500' Foot, 22 AWG Gauge Solid Outdoor CMX Alarm Data Wire New

US $20.95

 

Stranded or solid wire makes no difference in the operation, that's strictly a personal choice.

With stranded wire I find that you need to keep the strands of wire very tight when installing it a switch terminal screw. Solid wire is very good, however if using a size over 16 gauge it may not bend that easy or return fully from a bend in the wire if you try to straighten it. Also I have found that stranded wire is not the easiest to attach to some screw connections. 

What I have found is that with solid wire you can just bent it to the shape you want. With stranded wire you need to have more patience as sometimes the strands of wire may come undone from the twist you made, also stranded wire also needs to be watched more when attaching it to a screw.

Lee Fritz

Some things to consider:

Tortoise machines use a minimal amount of amperage, therefore any gauge around 24 will work fine.

Telephone wire used to be 22 gauge. Now it is 24 gauge. Cat5 is fine, but as the man said, Cat3 or even what we call "Cat nuthin" will work fine, too.  Alarm and telephone installers often have short scraps to give away. The small gauge wire is not worth hoarding and selling to the metal salvage yard.

Stranded vs solid is not an issue at the voltages and frequencies that we use. Same gauge, same ampacity.

Here's my best answer to the loose strand syndrome:  (write this on a Post-it note and refer to it often, but be aware that this is advice for right-handed people. Left-handed people do not suffer the escaping strand syndrome as much.)

When twisting stranded wire, twist it the "wrong" way, that is, against your natural tendency to twist it clockwise with your right hand, as you hold it with your left hand. Instead, hold it in your left hand, and twist the strands COUNTER CLOCKWISE.  When you go to form a right-handed loop, and smush the strands under a screw head, the twists will tighten, rather than loosen. Magic! 

The alternative is to have a small soldering iron idling at the train table, and form the loop, put a little solder on the strands, and they won't ever get loose.

Beware of "dry" crimp-on (as opposed to soldered)  terminals. They are the first place that trouble will occur.

 

 

phillyreading posted:

With stranded wire I find that you need to keep the strands of wire very tight when installing it a switch terminal screw. Solid wire is very good, however if using a size over 16 gauge it may not bend that easy or return fully from a bend in the wire if you try to straighten it. Also I have found that stranded wire is not the easiest to attach to some screw connections. 

What I have found is that with solid wire you can just bent it to the shape you want. With stranded wire you need to have more patience as sometimes the strands of wire may come undone from the twist you made, also stranded wire also needs to be watched more when attaching it to a screw.

Lee Fritz

If you are using screw terminals, crimp a terminal onto the stranded wire or tin the end of the wire and bend it into a hook. I crimp a spade terminal onto stranded wire.

Not sure anyone has read the current requirements for Tortoise switch machines. They draw 15 ma when stalled and 4 ma when moving. Using 18 gauge for these machines is like using 00 wire to wire your track. 30 AWG would be more than adequate.  Base your selection on what you plan to connect the auxillary terminals to. I think they are rated for less than 2 amps.

Pete

While smaller AWG can be used, I find it easier to work with 22 or 24 AWG wire, and the prices for AWG 22 and 24 are competitive enough with smaller gauges that cost is not a determining factor.

Thx all

Tom, I use #28 stranded for most of my light wiring in locomotives.

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Some things to consider:

... Beware of "dry" crimp-on (as opposed to soldered)  terminals. They are the first place that trouble will occur.

if this is the case, you are either using the wrong tool or you're using the right tool the wrong way.

Tom Tee posted:

GRJ,  my frame of wire size  reference was in handling frog powering.  Thank goodness for folks like you to service our locomotive wiring.

Tom, exceptionally nice wiring job. However if you are using the contacts on the Tortoise machines to power your three rail track you are probably exceeding the contact rating. The contacts were designed for indicator lights or maybe HO trains but not three rail O trains.

 

Pete

 

That's really neat... Are you guys Ex bell telephone   installers? 

Come over to three-rail Tom, much simpler.

Tom Tee posted:

Thank you for the kind words.

I believe Arthur Bloom has a Bell background.  He is really well versed.  I always pay attention to his thoughts.

My wiring is based on disciplines in aircraft service and powerboat racing.  And NO.  The wiring steps I use in trains would not be sufficient for planes or high performance boats.   That is where each wire has a code for

Wire terminals in anything that moves is required not to be soldered to lessen the chance of vibration causing the connection to break. All the cars in the world I think are only crimped connector pins. I remember a national presidential convention in the '60s maybe? where AMP? crimped every connector for the first time. A bold move back then and no failures.

So there you have it...

Points taken!

For a whole different perspective, I try to use wiring methods that use as few connectors/connections as possible. I like terminal blocks that accept wire ends directly, using a pressure plate or wire holder. It is still important to use the correct size wire, if you need to double it up or use other subterfuge you are on the wrong track. I try to avoid lugs, crimped or soldered.

 

 

I use the green Tortoise switch machines. The blue Cobalt switch machines operate exactly the same. The most important factor is calculating the correct AWG gauge wire # to handle the combined total amperage. Both switch machines use DC 3-pole armature stall motors. The stall motors are constantly drawing current, to insure that there is always a constant pressure on the switch throw tracks. When powering up the model train layout, this will also power up all the switch machines at the same time. Each Tortoise switch machine at 12 vdc will draw 15-16 ma. I prefer a more prototype view of a switch track and also a little quieter noise from the switch machines. I power each of my Tortoise switch machine at 8 vdc that will draw 23-24 ma. AWG gauge wire standards are rated chassis or power transmission. Using long lengths of wires to power supply each switch machine, AWG gauge power transmission values will be required. For example x10 ten Tortoise switch machines at 12 vdc / 16 ma. will draw a constant 192 ma. in total. For example x10 ten Tortoise switch machines at 8 vdc / 24 ma. will also draw a constant 192 ma. in total. 1 ampere is equal to 1000 milliamps. For example communications cables using Cat#5 are AWG #24 stranded wires. As per AWG chart, AWG #24 can supply a maximum of 0.577 amps to the total switch track machines. http://static.rcgroups.net/for...%20gauge%20chart.jpg

Billy, what difference does the total current draw make? You need two wires to each machine. Unless you want to have them all move simultaneously you only need to consider the current draw of an individual switch which is 15 ma. You only need to consider total current draw if you wire all your control switches from a single source which presumably is near your transformer/control panel.

Pete

It really does not matter when using such a small AWG gauge # wire, if the wire is stranded or solid. I must caution individuals that there are now many AWG gauge (large) wire # suppliers, now using aluminium wires. Copper wire is rated at 59.88 electrical conductivity, while aluminum wire is rated at only 36.74 electrical conductivity. http://i.cmpnet.com/planetanal.../06/C0078-Table1.gif

Actually they are selling copper clad aluminum. Still less conductive than solid copper, but better than pure aluminum and can be soldered easily.

Tom Tee posted:

 

snip...

In my many years of servicing layouts I have found many faults involving failed crimp connections.   

Yes the were not installed properly. 

Yes the harness was not run safely.

Yes the owner did not use a proper crimping tool.

Yes that is real life.

snip...

 

You have explained very well why I do not like crimp connectors! This is exactly what I ran into in my working life on commercial systems (so nice to be retired!). I have found and fixed some of them and I imagine there are many more still out there causing intermittent problems somewhere. We used professional contractors for the installations with skilled employees. 

I agree with PLCProf's and your later post about the terminal strips that accept the wires directly with no connectors involved. These are what I always try to use on my layout and other projects. The fewer connections the better and even better using no crimp connectors. The connectors would probably be just fine if everyone made them properly using the proper tools, but as you say, that doesn't always happen in real life.

The only place I used any crimp connectors on my layout were on some toggle switches. I had one bad connection that I had to repair and I definitely know better and was being very careful. I thought the switch was bad, but no, it was the crimp connector. Maybe the crimps and I are just jinxed when used together? 

To another comment above, I worked in a few telephone buildings before they went to all computer run systems. The wiring they did in those was the best I have ever seen, just amazing. Tied the big cables down on the wire trays with string and they were perfectly stacked and aligned. It was just immaculate the craftsmanship they had back in the day. They had specifications for everything and how it should be done back then. 

I was working in one about 1990 or so, they had already installed the computer systems and were tearing out all the old cables and relay switch gear. Sad to see all that beautiful work being disposed of. I often wondered what the folks tearing it out thought and if any of them had installed any of the original wiring that was done so neatly. 

I like strained better than  solid. If you accidentally cut into a solid copper and if the wires bends it could may break at that point.

I uses super flex stranded wire (90 to 120 strands) with a silicon jacket on all my restores. It cost more but is worth it.
As Gunnrunnerjohn states it is a personal choice.

QUOTE: (start) Billy, what difference does the total current draw make? You need two wires to each machine. Unless you want to have them all move simultaneously you only need to consider the current draw of an individual switch which is 15 ma. You only need to consider total current draw if you wire all your control switches from a single source which presumably is near your transformer/control panel. QUOTE: (end) So you Pete Norton will "Never" totally turn "Off" your model train power layout, so each Tortoise switch machine will receive a "Constant" required 12 vdc at 15/16 ma power supply. What total combined amperage will your model train power layout switch machines, require when "All" Tortoise switch machines are turned "On" at the same time?

I found this 8 wire cable on eBay. Purchased slip on connectors for tortoise machines. Did all the soldering work on the bench and now any future wiring options is as simple as tightening a screw.

 

 

Billy, The original poster asked what size wire to use with his Tortoise machines. The answer is a AWG to handle 15 ma. That is minimum size to run from each DPDT switch to each machine, period. (the correct answer BTW is 39 AWG). No one wants to work with wire that small but as some have stated above 28 AWG is more than enough.

How you wire from your power source to these DPDT switches is another question. If you have them all on a single buss then simply add up the current requirement. Maybe you have a large layout with multiple control panels with each panel controlling just few switches. Then its simply the total of each cluster.

No need to select a single wire size based on total number of switches.

BTW you can activate a switch then remove power and it will stay in position. Mine are only powered to move them. I have replaced the supplied .025" music wire with .040". The points stay in placed even unpowered.

Pete

Norton posted:

Billy, The original poster asked what size wire to use with his Tortoise machines. The answer is a AWG to handle 15 ma. That is minimum size to run from each DPDT switch to each machine, period. (the correct answer BTW is 39 AWG). No one wants to work with wire that small but as some have stated above 28 AWG is more than enough.

How you wire from your power source to these DPDT switches is another question. If you have them all on a single buss then simply add up the current requirement. Maybe you have a large layout with multiple control panels with each panel controlling just few switches. Then its simply the total of each cluster.

No need to select a single wire size based on total number of switches.

BTW you can activate a switch then remove power and it will stay in position. Mine are only powered to move them. I have replaced the supplied .025" music wire with .040". The points stay in placed even unpowered.

Pete

Pretty much bang on ...

smaller wires from from toggle switch to tortoise, larger from power source to multiple toggles switches.. based on total draw by section or bank.... which is roughly 15-16ma per tortoise @12V, as most people wire them for constant stall to ensure turnout points are held firmly to the stock rails ...solid is fine, easier to hook up, and they aren't going to be constantly moved..

If it matters, the  AWG 'power transmission' rating would not be applicable, as this rating is for multiple conductor cables that are shielded in conduit or similar... not single conductor cables in relatively open air... chassis rating is the one to use..

If you do not use the correct AWG # wire, or do not allow any heat to dissipate from a wire, in time the wire will totally fail. http://www.circuitron.com/inde.../ins/800-6000ins.pdf Each Tortoise switch machine will draw 15-16 ma. at stall. Tortoise switch machine manual does not recommend what AWG # wire to use. Of course a Tortoise switch machine will only draw 15-16 ma. at stall when the switch machine motor is reversed. The tension from the switch machine throw wire made from spring wire will give it a no load boosting start. Look closely at the Tortoise switch machine when the DC power is turned off. You will see that the Tortoise switch machine output throw arm will slightly back off from the spring wire tension. So does this also apply when a Tortoise switch machine is totally re-powered up, it will only draw 15-16 ma. under 100% full load. This is pushing against a constant load on the switch machine throw wire, in the existing same DPDT switch position. Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that a 12V DC motor under 100% full load, only requires 15-16 ma. (0.016 amp.) at full stall amperage. Has anyone else? There are also other different factors to consider regarding the efficiency of the switch motor and the movement of the switch track. Using an O gauge switch track will also require more stall torque amperage, because the switch track is much heavier compared to a HO gauge switch track. https://origin.ih.constantcont...ng?ver=1391062563000 AWG #32 is the smallest wire, used for electrical circuits. (.008" dia.) (0.53 amps chassis wiring) (0.091 amps power transmission). Any AWG # that is has a higher number than AWG #32 is used in magnet wire usage. Chassis wiring refers to the wiring often found inside the chassis of an electronic device. This is only using a single open air wire. Power transmission wiring is when two or more wires are bundled together, like to a switch machine. Wires that come in a shielded cable or wires that are twisted together apply to power transmission wiring. http://www.gaugemaster.com/ins...ts/cobalt_manual.pdf The Cobalt switch machine is almost identically built like the Tortoise switch machine. Each Cobalt switch machine will draw 30 ma. at stall. Cobalt switch machine manual recommends AWG #22 to AWG #24 wire sizes. AWG #22 wire is rated at (0.92 amps power transmission). AWG #24 wire is rated at (0.577 amps power transmission).

Billy D posted:

. Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that a 12V DC motor under 100% full load, only requires 15-16 ma. (0.016 amp.) at full stall amperage. Has anyone else?

Just checked two of them ..

at 12V DC, one was 0.0148A, other was 0.0152A ...14.8 ma 15.2 ma ..

at full stall , pretty much the Circuitron spec..

wvgca posted:

If it matters, the  AWG 'power transmission' rating would not be applicable, as this rating is for multiple conductor cables that are shielded in conduit or similar... not single conductor cables in relatively open air... chassis rating is the one to use..

I was being conservative here. Chassis rating is off the bottom of the charts or smaller than 40 AWG.

 

You can take them to water.......................

Pete 

QUOTE: (start) WVGCA .. Just checked two of them .. at 12V DC, one was 0.0148A, other was 0.0152A ...14.8 ma 15.2 ma .. at full stall , pretty much the Circuitron spec.. QUOTE: (end) WVGCA stated 14.8 ma and 15.2 ma at full stall. Is this measurement at full stall when the switch machine 3-pole stall motor is no longer turning? Are you stating that this 12V DC motor, pushing against spring loaded pressure, only requires 15-16 ma. (0.016 amp.) to start the motor turning? In another model train forum, I am also a long time member, using a different name/handle. In this model train forum, WVGCA is also a member using DCC Forum (Digital Command Control) in HO gauge. Every switch track will operate differently regarding how the switch machine operates and the quality of the switch track movement. You cannot compare a HO gauge track (5/8") wide to a O gauge track (1 1/4") wide. O gauge track is twice as large and twice the weight. How can an O gauge switch track that is twice the weight of a HO gauge switch track, have the same amperage to start the motor turning, under full load?

Simple Billy D, it's gearing.  They probably use the same motor, but the gearing is so low that there's insignificant load on the motor for any scale switch.

QUOTE: (start) GUNRUNNERJOHN. Simple Billy D, it's gearing. They probably use the same motor, but the gearing is so low that there's insignificant load on the motor for any scale switch. QUOTE: (end). Are you claiming that the four step down gears inside the Tortoise switch machine, will draw the same exact (start up) torque (stall) amperage, when reversing the Tortoise switch machine in HO gauge track (5/8") wide and O gauge track (1 1/4") wide.? Even though O gauge switch track is twice as heavy to move, compared to moving a HO gauge switch track. Will not moving an O gauge switch track, a much heavier switch track, require more start up torque (stall) amperage?

Good grief!  If you want to argue, find someone else! 

All I said is sufficient gearing will basically cause the motor to have very little load, regardless of the switch involved.  It takes a certain amount of current to spin a totally unloaded motor.  With a high gear ratio, there will be very little load experienced by the motor, even with a significantly different load, the gear train probably contributes more to the loading of the motor than the switch mechanism.  Nowhere did I say "exact", try not putting words in my mouth.

Since the tortoise only draws around 15-16ma at full stall, there isn't much room for a huge difference in running power, regardless of the load.  I think you should revisit Mechanics 101, the section on gear ratios.

Feel free to have the last word, because this is my last word in this topic.

For your consideration. A DC motor that has not overheated and shorted out its windings will never draw more than its stall current.

If the load is too great causing it to stop moving it will simply draw its stall current. Nothing more. As long as its moving it will draw less than its stall current.

Most DC motors are NOT stall motors. They will draw their stall current until they overheat and short out.

Tortoise uses stall motors. Not to be confused with the motors in your engines.

Pete