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I'm a few months from actually starting, but I've decided to take down my 7' X 7' table top layout and small yard and build an around the room layout - about 11' X 15' using Lionel Fastrack - in the same room in my basement.

As part of the design, She Who Must be Obeyed has given me permission to break through a wooden wall and use a 48" x 130" portion of the family room. I've decided that I would like to use this new area for yard storage of trains and rolling stock and this will be the first phase of the new layout. It can also connect to the old table top, so I can tweak it if necessary before building the rest of the new layout.

The outside track will be a loop to connect to the new layout. I would like to maximize the number of spurs and length that I can fit in the new yard area. My existing yard has 2" of space between the tracks and that seems to be enough clearance to run my LC and Legacy trains, so I'd like to stick to that dimension for the new yard.  

I've tried to use SCARM to create a basic design and have attached it here. I can't seem to get the knack of using the program correctly (too old and computer illiterate) and I know points don't close properly, etc., but the design would look "something" like the attached. I also don't know if I can actually fit the number of spurs the plan shows into the above dimensions. The wall is on the right side of the plan and the train would run CW and then back-up onto the spurs.

I realize there are some reach and potential fouling issues, but as it's basically all track and there won't be many accessories, if at all, I'm willing to live with those in exchange for the storage capability. I'd also like to eliminate the O-31 curves at the top left of the design for O-36.

If anyone has time to tweak the design or come up with a better plan, it's greatly appreciated.

Thanks - Rich

 YARD SKETCH 1

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  • YARD SKETCH 1
Last edited by Rich Melvin
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Rattler - I could use O-48 Fastrack curves. I know that still limits the size of the engines and rolling stock, but I'm comfortable running smaller stuff. The main layout on the other side of the wall will be mostly O-36 curves, anyway, to fit into the room.

John - I'll try your suggestion on the right hand sidings and see what I can come up with and post the results. 

Thanks. 

Hi Carl -  Thanks for chiming in. The "side" of the proposed new around-the-room design closest to the wall is the 130" side. The difference to the 15' side is the width of the entrance door to the room at the south end of the wall.

I tried to design the whole layout a while ago and have attached a plan I came up with (again not very good), but I'm learning. I'll need help with that as well when the time comes !!

The wall is about 4" thick and is to the right of the last spur and to the left of the outer main loop/line on the test sketch.  The existing table top has a bridge over to the existing yard which extends to the wall at the north end, so I could connect the proposed new yard to it - as is - but it won't connect on the bottom end.

I'm also attaching a revised yard sketch I did based on John's design and a couple of photos of the existing layout which might help. The silver passenger car is butted up against the wall.

Because I now have the extra space, my idea was to maximize the use of the train room exclusively for running trains, scenery buildings, towns, accessories, etc. and not sidings (I did put one long spur on the 15' side) and to use the extra space exclusively for yard/train storage. I dislike having to take trains on and off the track, so the more I can store on the layout, the better it is (at least IMHO). I plan to cut a window in the wall, so you'll be able to see through to the yard.  

I've got to close my office now and it looks like we're getting hit with a major blizzard here in Boston timorrow, but I'll be back as soon as I can. 

Thanks in advance.  

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  • TEST SKETCH 2
  • YARD SKETCH 2
  • TRAILER PARK
  • DOWNTOWN

Richie,

Well, the storm only dropped a couple of inches here in Jersey across from Philly. Good luck to you! Same to you John (TR18)

I took your photo and made a translucent rectangle for the room.  A couple of questions and thoughts...

Is the family room used by children? If yes, and perhaps it doesn't matter, I am thinking that the mainline should run out there and back and be empty of trains when not in use. Move your yard inside.

No children, I would leave the yard in the family room like a display.

It looks like you are avoiding an object in the top right corner. True?

Are you trying to use existing inventory and purchase a minimum of new track?

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  • Richie_C

The snow hasn't started yet so I'm back in my office, at least for a couple hours.

All children are grown and out of the house and the basement family room doesn't get used much anymore. I have a couple of small grandchildren and that's why I originally got back into the hobby, but then got bitten by the bug again. This will be the third "expansion" in the past year and a half.

I like the idea of the yard being sort of a display and, by using switches, the outer main loop of the new layout can either stay running just in the train room or go out and around the yard and back. The outer loop of the yard would stay open for train running and not be used for yard storage.

Yes, there is a boxed in drain pipe ( 6" X 9") in the upper right I have to jog around. It starts about 16 1/2" out from the right side wall. I figured the "empty space" in the corner would be good to use for the additional long siding.

I'm not concerned with how much additional track I might need to buy. Whatever I have now (about 95' of track and 8 switches, including command control) I will re-use, but whatever I need for new track and switches, I can readily acquire. The guys at Charles Ro have become good friends !

A couple of additional points - there is a structural steel post just above where you wrote "Family Room" so the length of the yard is restricted to 130", even though the wall, itself, is 142". There is a similar steel post inside the train room just below the shorter loop.  Also, I can go a few inches wider to about 52" for the width of the new yard, but was trying to keep it to a single sheet of plywood. I intend to cut a window into the wall so the yard is viewable from the train room and vice versa. Hooking the new yard up to the existing layout isn't critical, but the outer spur of my existing yard in the train room (where the Rio Grande GP9 is sitting in the photos) is almost exactly where the outer main loop of the new layout would be, so its doable.

I'd like to be able to run two trains at once - so I have two main lines in the train room design and because of the small space, I've done them as O-36 and O-31. I've also tried to cut back the width (other than the two loops) to about 36" so as not to have too many reach issues. I'm not concerned about being able to run large locomotives or 21" passenger cars. I have one O-31 curve in my existing layout to access the yard and my LC, Legacy and rolling stock are all able to negotiate it with no issues. 

Sorry about the lengthy post - thanks.

  

Richie,

Very helpful. The yard is giving me fits. I am not sure if the wyes are helpful due to their length. I am hung up on at least three pass-through lines with O36 switches on both sides and perhaps a storage spur or two near the wall. I view it more as a staging area for a complete train and/or a made up set of cars.

It's good to set your room on a grid (or X,Y coordinates) and create objects for the corner and the support columns indexing them from a fixed point. Then, you visually have the obstructions in the plan. Same for the door and it's in-swing space.

I think you could add some interest to the track plan by twisting the dog bone to create an over/under near the top right corner.

There is also an opportunity to connect the two loops with a bridge for another route.

 

If you guys are having issues, imagine my lack of expertise !  I'd love to be able to do all that, Carl, but just don't have the expertise with SCARM. I would love to incorporate some elevation changes, as well. I'm also thinking of a two track tunnel along a portion of the wall in the train room. 

I think the idea of having a couple of the sidings pass through is a good idea. That would allow possible travel in both directions and an engine escape route.

It would be an area where basically complete trains would be staged, but I'd leave a couple sidings open for just rolling stock and being able to use a switcher. The O-31 design does allow for longer sidings.

I'm on the north shore of Boston and the wind and snow are finally starting to crank up, so I'll be leaving soon.

Thanks.

   

Having fits really means design cramps. If you really wanted it a certain way with certain tracks, then John or I would try to make it work.

if you define what you want to do with it, that makes it easier to arrive at a solution.

Don't let the software block what you see or want it do.

The software helps with will it fit and which track to use.

The weather mess continues. Sleet, rain, high winds and now more snow. I am on the cold edge. I think you will get dumped on. This sucker is huge!

 

tr18 posted:

One last version with the pass through sidings. Good luck with the storm.

yard design with fastrack and pass through

 

Nice, John! I think I'll see how 036 will fit using your plan. They are 10" long on the through. Somehow, the O31 actual length of the straight ended up 11 3/8".

I don't think RRT has updated the library yet. SCARM has updated in 9.36 as we have direct contact with the author.

Finally back from cleaning up from the storm - not quite as much snow as they predicted, but really strong winds on the coast and lots of downed trees and power lines.

Thanks, guys - the design looks great.

I can make up any little gaps with small Fastrack pieces or a custom length - no problem.

Carl - are you saying the O-31 switches are 11 3/8" long on the through, but the O-36 are only 10" ?  Would that mean I could keep the same basic design and the same number of sidings using O-36 switches at the top and bottom  ?

Thanks.

Richie

I'm pretty sure Carl's comment about 11 3/8" was referring to the gaps in my drawing. The Lionel catalog says the 031 and 036 switches are both 10" long.

I tried a version using 036 switches on the top and bottom only, and them changing to 031 after that. It is tight. I could not get it to fit without the first switch in the top right corner being halfway into the tunnel portal.

So to me it seems to be either all 031 or fewer sidings. Personally, I'd go with all 031.

 

a mix of 036 and 031

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  • a mix of 036 and 031
Last edited by tr18

I think you're right about going with all O-31 to get the most sidings.

I'll shove the first switch back into the wall as far as it will go and still allow enough turning clearance and go from there. My LHS is good about letting me put stuff together in their store and getting exact measurements.

I'm still a couple of months from starting as I have to sell/dispose of a couch, old TV and some other items and cut a window into the wall before beginning construction. Plus, I've got about 100 Nascar collectibles hanging from that wall that I need to sell or box up.

I'll keep you guys posted as to progress and post pic's as I go along.

Thanks again.

Richie C. posted:

Finally back from cleaning up from the storm - not quite as much snow as they predicted, but really strong winds on the coast and lots of downed trees and power lines.

Thanks, guys - the design looks great.

I can make up any little gaps with small Fastrack pieces or a custom length - no problem.

Carl - are you saying the O-31 switches are 11 3/8" long on the through, but the O-36 are only 10" ?  Would that mean I could keep the same basic design and the same number of sidings using O-36 switches at the top and bottom  ?

Thanks.

Yes, those are the actual product lengths of the straight. I agree, If the curves fit, the O36 will get a little tighter.

tr18 posted:

Richie

I'm pretty sure Carl's comment about 11 3/8" was referring to the gaps in my drawing. The Lionel catalog says the 031 and 036 switches are both 10" long.

I tried a version using 036 switches on the top and bottom only, and them changing to 031 after that. It is tight. I could not get it to fit without the first switch in the top right corner being halfway into the tunnel portal.

So to me it seems to be either all 031 or fewer sidings. Personally, I'd go with all 031.

 

a mix of 036 and 031

John, no, the length of the FT 031 is wrong in RRT. It was marketed as 10" and then the actual was 11 3/8". This was confirmed with Dean Brasseur at Lionel.

I haven't see a library fix from RRT lately.

I was not concerned about gaps when working on a concept - I know that you know how to fit track.

Last edited by Moonman

I don't have any O31 switches in my existing layout, but I'll measure one of my O36 switches tonight and then go to the LHS on Saturday to fit up some track and switches and see how they measure out and let you know. 

I can expand the width of the yard by a couple inches using trim pieces if necessary so, if the O36's will work without losing any sidings, that's probably the way I'd go.

Richie,

Not as many tracks, but it fits except for second passthrough. I have an alternate straight that fits. You see the misalignment points. the outermost will join. If the innermost will not, the alternative track length is shown is main room.

The start point is 45.5" for the left edge of the yard and 2.5" down from the top edge. A 5" provides the wall pass.

This is pretty close to the fitment of your main layout. You'll see the gray low right corner from one of your pics. Drag it out for the background view.

You can copy all of track from this file and paste it into your layout file open in a second instance of SCARM.

The roadbed is shown for clearance spacing. Press B to toggle it on/off.

pic and file attached right-click on the file and save then open it locally

Edit- in SCARM you can select Tools>Parts List see what track is needed. remember the O36 11.25 are included with switches and the optional straight subtracted also.

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Last edited by Moonman

Gary - I agree. Not sure if you saw the design of the main layout revised by Carl back on 3-14, but I'd say 90% of the train running will be done on the side of the wall away from and not be impacted by the yard. I think for most of us, space limitations force us to compromise from what would be the ideal layout to one that fits into the allotted space and provides the most entertainment value for us and our families and friends. In this case, I'm willing to compromise on an occasional fouling of the main in order to achieve what I believe provides the best bang for my situation.

Carl - That looks great. I see where the misalignment points are. From my experience with FT, I'd say there's probably enough "give" to make it work. I'll try to save it to SCARM and let you know if I have any issues. Thanks again and, if you have time in a few months, I'll probably be back when it comes time to build the main layout.

Richie

This hobby is all about tradeoffs so I'm going to throw one last option out there.

First, it is possible to do this using all 036 switches but will likely require some 031 curve sections, IF you can live with the entry switch protruding into the tunnel portal, OR if you can stretch the width from 48" to about 52".

Second, if one of those is possible, do the same thing at the bottom and have all pass throughs.

Have fun

 

all 036 switches

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  • all 036 switches

Because O is bigger than N and our space is limited, we all try to fit 40 lbs. of stuff in a 10 lb. box.

TR-18 has the right idea. Reverse ("S") curves are trouble, both in 1:1 and 1:48.  The sharper the curves and the closer their proximity, the more troublesome.  Trains on track are very much like string on a table, pull the string and it straightens out; push the string and... well, you know.  Try to push string around reverse curves and the results are predictable.

Good luck.

John,

That's a sweet design too, but I'm not sure I can push the switches that far back into the wall and get turning clearance because of some heating pipe obstructions, but certainly worth a look if I can expand the width outward. At about 52", the width will start to interfere with a door that opens towards the yard.

With all pass-throughs it looks like twelve command control switches - my LHS will be salivating !!

RTH - you're right. About the only saving grace is that, since it's a yard, the speeds will be pretty slow.

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