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We've been dealing with those tough to open snap lids on Atlas scale coupler pockets and less than reliable coupler performance for many years (in my case since 1971!).  My preference is to replace Atlas couplers with rock  solid Kadees.  But as most know the mounting holes used by Kadee and Atlas have slightly different spacing and setback from the end sill.  While some have worked around the spacing issue, mounting Kadee pockets using the existing Atlas holes causes the pocket to noticeably stick out beyond the end sill taking away from the prototypical appearance of the car.  IMO the best conversion appearance wise is to use an adapter plate, and/or drill new holes and add spacers to compensate for differences in pocket thickness - but that takes a lot of work and careful handling to do the job right.

On several occasions I've talked with people at Kadee suggesting they offer a conversion coupler set specially fitted for Atlas O scale rolling stock.  Typically they find the idea interesting - but so far no product announcement.  I suspect our niche market may be too small to develop, produce, and sell  the product with a reasonable return on investment.

 After seeing the creative application of 3D printing by guys on this forum, I'd like to hear if others think it would be possible to design and 3D print a Kadee conversion pocket tailored for Atlas cars.  For consideration I would propose the following attributes:

  • pocket mounted to the Atlas underframe reusing existing tapped holes for 2mm flat head screws
  • pocket upper surface thickness matching the "thick" Atlas dimension to retain OEM car body and coupler height
  • front edge of the pocket flush with the end sill (possibly with some prototype draft gearbox details missing on Kadee pockets)
  • screw on coupler pocket lid 
  • Compatible with either Kadee 805 or the new 745 coupler shanks

 

Comments??

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by Keystoned Ed
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3D printed spacers for Atlas cars already exist. Mario has done a few different designs that have new holes that line up with the Kadees, putting them flush with the end sill of the car. I have used many of them on my own Atlas cars.

There are also complete draft gear pockets for Lionel PS4 flat cars and other stuff designed by other people, all available on Shapeways.

Last edited by Laidoffsick

I dont really see a need to re-desgin a draft gear box to hold the coupler though. The Kadee draft gear box is just fine. The engine coupler mount still needs the complete Kadee to slide in it. It's just a spacer with a decorative front for the pilot. If the Kadee is the proper height on the cars, and flush with the end sill.... what else do we need? 

Mounting the Kadees at the proper height and location is the key... and the Atlas spacer provide just that. 

Last edited by Laidoffsick

Thanks for drawing my attention to Mario's listings on Shapeways.  I'll give a set of shims a try. 

Where I disagree with LAIDOFFSICK is that for many applications the Kadee pocket isn't "just fine".  It's extreme opening detracts from the prototype look of our cars while the added lateral play isn't always required for good operation.  

For improved appearance I'd like to see a 3D printed scale width pocket version for mounting Kadee's.  I have a handful of hoppers with Yoder scale width coupler pockets (brass castings) and found they worked well on my former branch line (several tight  2 rail 42" radius curves).  .   Scale width pockets aren't for every application.  They wouldn't work well on long modern era cars or on layouts with tight S curves.  Hopefully with 3D printing someday soon we'll have several new Kadee coupler mounting options. 

 

Hi, Ed!

theres been a few designs, and if you like either one or need something specific, email me. 

https://youtu.be/o42DBnNuHNk

Sounds like you're looking for a mount that has an integrated Kadee-style box. Much like I did for the truck mounted box, and I can look into it. How much side to side movement would you like?

In the meantime, thank you Doug!!!!!

heres what they look like and some iterations. They come in two thicknesses. 0.080" and 0.120". 

IMG_7530

Here's the idea...

IMG_7532IMG_7531

IMG_7536IMG_7537

More details here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...t-bolsters-and-shims

My email is in my profile.

thanks,

Mario

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Last edited by CentralFan1976

Ed,

I did some design work and I think this is what you are looking for.  Its a two-piece replacement box, that is a cross between the Protocraft and Kadee boxes, and self aligning to the "lugs" on the bottom of the Atlas O cars.

If you look at the cover, there are the four indentations for the lugs, whether you car has the two in line, or two to the outside.  If you place the cover with the "long hood" back, then the front of the coupler box should be at the end sill of the car.  If you turn it around, and project the "long hood" forward, then it becomes a cushioned draft gear box that sticks out from the sill.

The spring is designed to go in front of the screw, and the projection on the bottom of the coupler needs to be ground even with the shank, as it is no longer needed.  Also, I use a square file to flatten the inside curve of the shank opening so the spring fits flat.  I should be able to test print tomorrow.

Atlas O Coupler Box - Reversible CoverAtlas O Coupler Box - Receiver

Thoughts?

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  • Atlas O Coupler Box - Reversible Cover
  • Atlas O Coupler Box - Receiver

Mario it looks good. I would widen it just a tad to allow for more swing( side to side movement). The ability to  use as a draft gear box for long hood forward, as a cushioned draft gear box is a great idea as there is nothing out there for this application. My only concern is that there isn't enough length to provide ridged strength under the box car to prevent bending as the plain white will bend under tension. The only difference between 3RS and 2R is the track   2R guys have the same issues with radius of curves like we do..  So if the design works for 3RS then it will work for 2R. Also did you get my Email. ?

Last edited by suzukovich

Something to point out to everyone following this. The other advantage will be the ability to just order the couplers and springs. This will drive down the cost.

Mario looks good. But would recommend the following

using an cushioned box car to insure length of the draft box .

I don't think your going to get away with out some sort of channel for the coupler similar to the Kadee draft box due to the lug on the bottom of the coupler unless you sand it off.

Also need to redo some measurements. concerning the email. I think I know what your questions are.

Doug

suzukovich posted:

Something to point out to everyone following this. The other advantage will be the ability to just order the couplers and springs. This will drive down the cost.

That is NOT all that easy to do with Kadee, as such separate individual coupler components generally must be ordered in minimum quantities from Kadee, i.e. around 500 pieces.

Mario looks good. But would recommend the following

using an cushioned box car to insure length of the draft box .

I don't think your going to get away with out some sort of channel for the coupler similar to the Kadee draft box due to the lug on the bottom of the coupler unless you sand it off.

Also need to redo some measurements. concerning the email. I think I know what your questions are.

Doug

 

I have already converted my Atlas-O stuff to KDs. I found the spacer issue pretty irksome.

I have 11 box cars on preorder with Lionel. They are all the PS-1s except for 3 of the sound cars.

I need to know what thickness of Mario's spacers I will require as I see he makes two.

Also, as for the price. They are sold individually? Or as a pair? The price seems a bargain if it's for a pair. If it's for a single spacer .  .  . "not so much." I would have expected them to come in pairs, after all.

Terry Danks posted:

I have already converted my Atlas-O stuff to KDs. I found the spacer issue pretty irksome.

I have 11 box cars on preorder with Lionel. They are all the PS-1s except for 3 of the sound cars.

I need to know what thickness of Mario's spacers I will require as I see he makes two.

Also, as for the price. They are sold individually? Or as a pair? The price seems a bargain if it's for a pair. If it's for a single spacer .  .  . "not so much." I would have expected them to come in pairs, after all.

Terry,

The PS-1s have their own spacers. 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...l-ps-1-kadee-install

What are the sound cars? Steel reefers?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxnlPJ9LIU

Thanks,

Mario

Last edited by CentralFan1976

The PS1 sound box car is the same as the PS1 box car.. same spacers specific for the Lionel box car. 

Same with the ice reefers, they use the same Lionel ice reefer spacer with or without sound. Although doing the sound cars are a bit tricky because of the rollers and sensor. I have done all of mine, the sound cars just take a little longer and requires a few extra steps.

Last edited by Laidoffsick

Mario - thanks for the rapid and thoughtful response.  In my initial post I was primarily looking for easy mounting of traditional Kadee's on AtlasO cars.  Your line of shims address that need.  

 A second and related interest is for a better looking narrow face coupler pocket for Kadee mounting.  Ideally the pocket would be offered in two versions - one for mounting on  AtlasO cars, and a slightly different version for cars with Kadee mounting pads.  On the latter I recommend going with centerline mounting holes so that the pocket can be narrow along its full length.  This attribute would improve the appearance of cars where the draft gear is visible from above.    

Addressing pocket width:  AtlasO and Kadee pockets have a .450" interior width at the face.  Yoder brass Kadee pockets  are .300" I.W. at the face.  The Protocraft pocket is .250 I.W.   My preference is for a compromise .300" wide pocket opening as I've found they work fine on my 2 rail layout.  Note: pocket openings this wide will not support delayed coupling - a feature I do not use (or like!).  For grins- below is a photo of hoppers equipped with Yoder .300" width couplers on a O-36 curve.   Depending on how tight the curves are, especially s curves, There can be issues if cars with limited lateral coupler displacement are coupled to longer equipment.  Full disclosure: my branch line minimum radius is 51".

hoppers on O-36 curve

Coupler centering is an important feature to me as we do "hands off" switching during operating sessions (see my 2/27/16 post on super magnets for uncoupling).   Kadee couplers (especially the original 805 head )have a fair amount of gathering range  - but if the heads are not centered (especially on curves)  coupling can be an issue.  Concern: If a pocket requires filing off the boss on the underside of the Kadee shank I doubt it will self center.

Reading through the posts above I suspect a one size fits all design probably wouldn't address the various 2 and 3 rail interests.  But with the flexibility of CAD/3D printing combined with Mario's talent perhaps a line of related pockets for Kadee mounting is in reach.

 

  

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Last edited by Keystoned Ed

Ed,

Ask and you shall receive.

I just finished the drawings for a receiver & cover that have a 0.300" wide opening.  I'll be ordering some to try.

A-CB-COVER-300A-CB-RECEIVER-300

The covers slide in and held in place with a tab at the front, and then the screw holds it all under the car.  The vertical blocks prevent deformation of the plastic during tightening and allow for the spring to have a flat surface to push off besides the screw.

The coupler should self-center as the block should cause any angle to work itself out at the rear of the shank.  The coupler will slide into the front of the box and up and over the box (I've clearance it accordingly), and then when you slide the cover in place it will fill in that clearance at the front of the opening.

Stay tuned.

PS - Shapeways has 25% & free shipping today only.

Thanks,

Mario

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Keystoned Ed posted:

with  today's free shipping offer couldn't wait so i placed my first order Shapeways order for Mario's new coupler pocket.

Thanks, Ed

I took the liberty of ordering you a set of the covers, which I call "Receiver Alignment Covers" and will send them to you when they arrive. 

I should have put the link to them in the description. 

IMG_7562

Once i ensure that the design is sound, the next step is trimming excess plastic to get the price down. 

Thanks!

Mario

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Last edited by CentralFan1976

That was very kind of you Mario - thanks.  Your mention of refining a design to minimize the volume of 3D printed material  is a perspective I hadn't really thought about.  In the past  I've worked with friends and casters to produce a handful of special lost wax brass part for locomotive detailing projects (e.g. a correctly shaped PRR K4s sand dome).  With that medium labor tends to be the the factor driving production cost.  Does Shapeways offer anything in the way of volume discounts if one needed dozens of the same part?

 One of the things I like about the OGR forum is that it provides have a place where scale oriented modelers actually building and running 2 and 3 rail equipment can meet and exchange ideas and interests

 

 

Unfortunately, they do not offer volume discounts.

I am currently working with a detail parts manufacturer to get these done in lost wax castings, and that should bring all of that to a moot point.

One thing that Shapeways does offer is printing these and then creating a wax master for us, again saving us time and costs.

But, because of the fine wall thicknesses (0.030"), Shapeways limits the choice of materials to "ultra" detail and finer, so they charge a $5 setup fee, in addition to the per-volume material charge.  This is why I'm striving to both cut down on material usage and include a multi-up design.

In this case, the design work is "free".

You and John are leading the pack with blurring the line between 3RS & 2R, and are adored for it and both of your modeling skills.  Thank you.

Last edited by CentralFan1976

Test run on the build. 

Got some easy revisions, but they work great. Even the couplers center, as I though they would. 

IMG_7616IMG_7617IMG_7619IMG_7620IMG_7621IMG_7618

I don't suggest using them on O40, as seen above, because in tension, the cars clear but on compression during pushing, these rub. 

These are the larger of the sets, the near-scale 0.300" opening ones will be here tomorrow. 

Thanks,

Mario

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