Important News About York and the TCA

OGR Webmaster posted:

Jameszz posted:

The Big 4 don't sell anything. 

James, please read some of the early posts in this thread.

This is not about SELLING, it is about meeting new people and sowing seeds for the future of this hobby.

Rich, and I ask this respectfully... So who's agenda are we addressing here?  When was York EVER about addressing the hobby's future?  That's a tall order for something that started out as a bunch of guys just meeting to swap/trade trains several decades ago.  

Sorry.... But something doesn't compute here.  Vendors are reportedly complaining that their costs to attend York are exceeding their sales.  We get that. Travel, lodging, meals, booth space, etc.... Are you really saying that all these dealers, vendors, and sellers are satisfied being good Corporate Citizens without a quick return on their York investment?  I applaud them if that's true.  But then let's not hear them complain about "the cost to attend York".

Stoking the top of the funnel ain't a quick ROI venture.  It's a long-term committment, and York strikes me as something completely different.  I smell a bit of a smoke-screen here.  Just sayin....

I guess I need to re-read some of the earlier posts in this thread too, 'cause I ain't connecting all the dots yet.  And I don't think I'm alone.

David

P.S.  BTW, I think many of us here would agree that the aging demographics of our toy train community certainly aren't HELPING York attendance figures go up.  But there are other factors at play here too.  Let's not forget that York has a tremendous amount of unanticipated competition nowadays.  Whether it be eBay, online website sales, perpetual year-round dealer sales, expensive new-product pre-orders, etc...   ALL of these factors are chipping away at folks' apparent need to make two trips each year to York.  What was ONLY available readily at York (perhaps a decade or more ago), might now be much more readily available through other avenues year-round.  And everytime we see a major new announcement from importers, folks are gonna tap their piggy bank for anywhere from $1,500 to $5,000 like it's table stakes in Las Vegas.    Frankly, I think we're just seeing the tip of a proverbial iceberg here.    And opening one day to the public may only begin to scratch the surface of addressing the real issue.

Rich, let me clarify. I was responding to an earlier post from Jerry. He stated that "we don't want to blow off the Big 4". I should have copied it into my post so it was clear. 

My 2 cents...

I drive 550 miles each way to attend York twice each year, and I know that others travel much farther.  I like seeing the rare/unusual items in the member halls; but although there have been exceptions, the deals in Orange and Purple are usually what make the trip worthwhile.  Take away the manufacturers and big dealers, and I'll come once a year, or maybe every other year.  

I'm not going to drop my TCA membership if I stop coming to York.  IMO, the folks that are members only to attend York are missing the point of joining an organization that promotes and protects our hobby.  If not for TCA needing the income, I wouldn't mind if they quit.  

If York fades away, I can get my train fix from local meets and the internet, but it just won't be the same.  York is a unique experience, and it will be a loss to all of us if it is allowed to wither and die.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

Jameszz posted:

The Big 4 don't sell anything. 

James, please read some of the early posts in this thread.

This is not about SELLING, it is about meeting new people and sowing seeds for the future of this hobby.

Rich, and I ask this respectfully... So who's agenda are we addressing here?  When was York EVER about addressing the hobby's future?  That's a tall order for something that started out as a bunch of guys just meeting to swap/trade trains several decades ago.  

Sorry.... But something doesn't compute here.  Vendors are reportedly complaining that their costs to attend York are exceeding their sales.  We get that. Travel, lodging, meals, booth space, etc.... Are you really saying that all these dealers, vendors, and sellers are satisfied being good Corporate Citizens without a quick return on their York investment?  I applaud them if that's true.  But then let's not hear them complain about "the cost to attend York".

Stoking the top of the funnel ain't a quick ROI venture.  It's a long-term committment, and York strikes me as something completely different.  I smell a bit of a smoke-screen here.  Just sayin....

I guess I need to re-read some of the earlier posts in this thread too, 'cause I ain't connecting all the dots yet.  And I don't think I'm alone.

David

Well put , How did it become eastern division job to grow the hobby and to make sure everyone makes money, if the big 4 are loosing money then its up to them to fix it not to use strong arm tactics to move there agenda

Many people on here believe that if we open York to the public we can save the O Scale hobby , And that's far from the truth the hobby was in trouble when we started to accept that 2000.00 for a locomotive was normal, We all share in that if we had  just put our money back in our wallets maybe someone would have listen and we would not be at this point, There are so many different things for people to do and to do a lot cheaper, This is a point that keeps getting lost in the talk about 1 event being opened to the public

OGR Webmaster posted:

fl9turbo2, the plan is that the ORANGE HALL would be opened to the public on SATURDAY ONLY.

who's in the orange hall, just manufacturers, used dealers, or both?

Wow! My head hurts. Talk about having an agenda...

Jameszz posted:

Rich, let me clarify. I was responding to an earlier post from Jerry. He stated that "we don't want to blow off the Big 4". I should have copied it into my post so it was clear. 

I stated the following:

 You really don't want to blow off the Big 4, they are a pretty important draw at York, most attendees will hit their displays to see what's new and kibbitz with the reps.

Because:

 Less people means less interest on the part of vendors and manufacturers to attend which makes the event less interesting for the attendees which leads to even less people attending and so forth and so on...a vicious circle.

Yeah, they don't sell anything but people still like to see what they have , if the show eventually dwindles back to being a good ol' boys swap meet not too many people will be interested in going, most of the older PW type of stuff doesn't sell like it used to, now the newer stuff does sell and that's generally the dealers area of strength.

Jerry

OGR Webmaster posted:

Jameszz posted:

The Big 4 don't sell anything. 

James, please read some of the early posts in this thread.

This is not about SELLING, it is about meeting new people and sowing seeds for the future of this hobby.

I don't know what York looked like for the past 20+ years.  I've only attended the previous 3 shows.  One of the main reasons I attended was to investigate some of the present and future items from the vendors.  I really like seeing an item before I buy it.  Yes,  I took some money and spent it on numerous items at York.  However; I took my two boys (12/14) and we spent a lot of time at the "Big 4" locations.   We purchased the superhero cars after seeing them at York.    We also bought two MTH diesels after seeing looking them over at York.   Thus, I tend to agree with this statement.  

There weren't a lot of young people at the event.  I could count them on my hands, including my own children.  Times change....businesses and organizations have to adapt or they will fail.   Everyone on the TCA board should read Good to Great. 

Everyone on the TCA board should read Good to Great. 

I read Good to Great. I was given a copy in appreciation for something or other that I did at work. Our director was a big fan of the book and Jim Collins. Most of us were relieved when she left. How is Circuit City doing these days?

You can get the key concepts from the Wikipedia page on the book.

By the way, I think the "Hedgehog Concept" says to keep the show closed.

Just curious, are the manufacturers presentations that are held at the TCA library the day before the show open to the public?
If so, does the museum keep track of how many members and non-members attend?
If not, surely they must have a count of how many members and non-members visit the museum that day. Maybe the numbers would be meaningless, but they would still be interesting to see.

If the Orange Hall (and any other business occupied halls) is/are open to the public on Saturday (along with displays by clubs and individuals) and those parts of the meet extended to 5:00 PM or so on Saturday, which seems to be the request of the bigger exhibitors, I don't see how this in any way compromises the rest of the York meet, or could impair the experience of York for the existing TCA members.  And that's what seems to be under consideration.  Seems like a win-win, or at least no lose proposition .

C W Burfle posted:

Everyone on the TCA board should read Good to Great. 

I read Good to Great. I was given a copy in appreciation for something or other that I did at work. Our director was a big fan of the book and Jim Collins. Most of us were relieved when she left. How is Circuit City doing these days?

You can get the key concepts from the Wikipedia page on the book.

By the way, I think the "Hedgehog Concept" says to keep the show closed.

My comment was more "tongue in cheek" regarding the confrontation of brutal facts.   Thus, the smiley face.   It was more of a joke than a recommendation.   Although, I did enjoy the book.   But more for the "get the right people on the bus" discussion.  

My comment was more "tongue in cheek" regarding the confrontation of brutal facts.   Thus, the smiley face.   It was more of a joke than a recommendation.   Although, I did enjoy the book.   But more for the "get the right people on the bus" discussion.

LOL.... I never thought I'd be "discussing" the book "Good to Great" on the OGR Chat Board. 

Anyway, I am glad you and your boys enjoyed the train show, and the time spent at the Lionel booth. I hope everything works out, and Lionel & other big companies continue to participate.

C W Burfle posted:

My comment was more "tongue in cheek" regarding the confrontation of brutal facts.   Thus, the smiley face.   It was more of a joke than a recommendation.   Although, I did enjoy the book.   But more for the "get the right people on the bus" discussion.

LOL.... I never thought I'd be "discussing" the book "Good to Great" on the OGR Chat Board. 

Anyway, I am glad you and your boys enjoyed the train show, and the time spent at the Lionel booth. I hope everything works out, and Lionel & other big companies continue to participate.

True statement!  I laughed when I wrote it.   I'm glad someone else actually read the book.   I agree, I hope it all works out.   I go to look at the future as well as blow my  money on the current items!  

Dave45681 posted:

jd-train posted:

............. I would spend $35 ($20 gas and $15 entrance fee) to browse the dealer hall on  a Saturday afternoon.  Having to pay an additional $50 for a TCA membership, or $85 total, to spend an afternoon in the dealer hall is just to much money, as that is $85 I could just put towards an internet purchase.

Jim

And the shipping costs associated with such purchases (I realize some dealers may have free shipping, but not all, and certainly not for small orders)

And just for technical "benefit vs cost" accuracy, you should divide the $50 by 2, since you can attend 2 meets for your $50.  Obviously your gas and entrance fee is counted each meet you attend.

Dave,  In my situation, York twice a year isn't likely to happen, as I usually end up traveling for work during parts of April and sometimes October/November.  Of course, after I retire in 6 years, I'll have more free time, but by then, I'll be coming from Florida, the Carolinas, or Washington State!  I probably need to make sure I get to York at least once before this happens!

Pete, I wish I had more time so that I could join a club or hang out with some fellow enthusiats .  But I just don't see it happening in the near term.  In the interim, while I have never claimed to be Superman, my train area in the basement serves as my Fortress of Solitude!

Jim

baltimoretrainworks posted:

SD60M posted:

This won't last long...but, was there any discussion as to who could use which bathrooms?

Depends!

jerry

Brilliant! Avoids the discussion entirely.

baltimoretrainworks posted:

SD60M posted:

This won't last long...but, was there any discussion as to who could use which bathrooms?

Depends!

C W Burfle posted:

Just curious, are the manufacturers presentations that are held at the TCA library the day before the show open to the public?
If so, does the museum keep track of how many members and non-members attend?
If not, surely they must have a count of how many members and non-members visit the museum that day. Maybe the numbers would be meaningless, but they would still be interesting to see.

Yes.  Wednesday is Open House, member or not. (I was not fully aware that was the case for non-members on York Wednesday , but I specifically heard a non-member visitor ask at the ticketbooth/store and they were told it was free for everyone that day.)

Melody (one of the wonderful volunteers) mentioned to me that there was some good TV exposure based on a local TV station coming and doing some interviews with a few of the volunteers early that day.  (This was provided to all members in a recent TCA email, I believe)  I asked her if anyone who came mentioned seeing the TV spot and she said a few had, so that may have brought in a few visitors who were new.

I don't know if the Museum is interested in releasing the statistics, but theoretically everyone is supposed to sign in.  There are separate sheets for members and non-members.  That should be at least a rough estimate if those sheets are reviewed.

-Dave

I stated the following:

 You really don't want to blow off the Big 4, they are a pretty important draw at York, most attendees will hit their displays to see what's new and kibbitz with the reps.

Because:

 Less people means less interest on the part of vendors and manufacturers to attend which makes the event less interesting for the attendees which leads to even less people attending and so forth and so on...a vicious circle.

Yeah, they don't sell anything but people still like to see what they have , if the show eventually dwindles back to being a good ol' boys swap meet not too many people will be interested in going, most of the older PW type of stuff doesn't sell like it used to, now the newer stuff does sell and that's generally the dealers area of strength.

Jerry

Jerry, No disrespect intended with original post. I was at work (off company time of course) and I couldn't complete the thought. Manufacturers should not be forgotten about but I would rather hear the suggestions and opinions of the vendors/members first.

None taken Jameszz, these threads about anything York or TCA always take on a life of their own when they appear. One little blurb or comment and the reactions range form "THE SKY IS FALLING." to "ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD NOW.". Everyone throws in their 2 cents about how it will or won't work, what they should or shouldn't do, we hear how they don't need to do it because me and my friends don't do it or they need to do it because me and my friends always do it. The original post was about the powers that be looking into maybe allowing the public into the Orange hall on Saturday and every armchair whoever has to chime in with what they are positive can or can't be done and in reality the TCA and the ED don't even know what is possible yet, for all we know the Pa. revenuers might put the kibosh on the whole thing before it even gets off the ground. I'm just as guilty of many others here, sometimes I read into or miss a point in a post and fire off a reply that in reality probably should have been a little better phrased or researched but that happens sometimes when you're passionate about an issue. I personally like the idea of a public Saturday and I have my own little wish list of what I hope they do with it, some of the ideas might already be up for discussion by the ED but I'm not in the loop. If they do Saturdays I'll still go on Fridays as usual and make Saturday a longer day with my grandson, if not me and him will still go, either decision won't be a deal breaker for me.

Jerry

None taken Jameszz, these threads about anything York or TCA always take on a life of their own when they appear. One little blurb or comment and the reactions range form "THE SKY IS FALLING." to "ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD NOW.". Everyone throws in their 2 cents about how it will or won't work, what they should or shouldn't do, we hear how they don't need to do it because me and my friends don't do it or they need to do it because me and my friends always do it.

If Rich didn't want the discussion, he could have locked the thread immediately upon posting the announcement.
It's interesting that the announcement appears here with the permission of the TCA's president, but the TCA (or Eastern Division) has not seen fit to send anything out to its own members. That is unfortunate.

C W Burfle posted:

It's interesting that the announcement appears here with the permission of the TCA's president, but the TCA (or Eastern Division) has not seen fit to send anything out to its own members. That is unfortunate.

Probably because nothing has changed. If and when something changes then I am sure everyone will be informed. Again, if this works out as hoped the members will see no change other than the parking lot on Saturday will be more crowded and and longer hours in the Orange Hall.

Pete

Probably because nothing has changed. If and when something changes then I am sure everyone will be informed

Then why permit it to be announced here?

C W Burfle posted:

 

Then why permit it to be announced here?

Why Not?

C W Burfle posted:

Then why permit it to be announced here?

Because it is NEWS that concerns an important segment of the hobby. And it was posted here with the permission of the National TCA president...the man who wrote the letter.

It is abundantly clear that you are against this move. Your many posts in this thread are evidence of this. However, you are reaching too far and too hard to promote your position. Perhaps you ought to step back, count to 10 and give some thought to what you're saying.

Change is always tough - I get that. In this case, change is critical to the future success of the York TCA Meet. Whether you like it or not, the York TCA meet has changed. It is not a small, "good ol' boys" show any more. It has grown far beyond that, but some aspects of the meet have not changed with the times.

OGR Webmaster posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Then why permit it to be announced here?

Because it is NEWS that concerns an important segment of the hobby. And it was posted here with the permission of the National TCA president...the man who wrote the letter.

It is abundantly clear that you are against this move. Your many posts in this thread are evidence of this. However, you are reaching too far and too hard to promote your position. Perhaps you ought to step back, count to 10 and give some thought to what you're saying.

Change is always tough - I get that. In this case, change is critical to the future success of the York TCA Meet. Whether you like it or not, the York TCA meet has changed. It is not a small, "good ol' boys" show any more. It has grown far beyond that, but some aspects of the meet have not changed with the times.

I agree Rich change is tough, What had rubbed me the wrong way is how TCA national seems like they are the govern body for the meet and they are not, This is a Eastern Division function and they have to decide, I would have prefer to have the ED the big 4 and TCA National jointly put out a statement outlined what's happened and there plans,  but no one has given ED a chance to do its work.  I feel you have been the only one to offer your support and what I mean in more than words to help. Will change happen, maybe but there are larger issues here not just the opening of one event, So lets give the ED time to dot there I and cross there T's before we just open the doors, There are a lot of things to consider

1 The cost to open the show to the public, To keep the doors open longer and to keep staff and security longer, will the fairgrounds allow us to keep the doors open longer will we have to pay the medical staff to stay

2 Impact on non dealers will the open to the public affect selling by non dealers, Will non members have to get tax numbers in order to sell or will the event be able  to be split between dealers and members

3 Will the division loose its non profit status the division is now listed as a non profit organization will they loose there status and if we do loose that status will we now be subject to taxes

these are just some of the things that have to be answered before we can move on any change, We cant change overnight and we cant blow it up and start over but this rush from everyone to just open the doors is not going to happen today or tomorrow anything the division does will not go into affect until at least april 2017  so lets give ED a chance to do its work

Turbo, you and CW should get together, get a bottle and chill out. The ED is in fact spearheading this. Its their show. It was the ED board members who met with the big 4. I suspect someone from the National was present also but I don't know that for sure. Maybe Rich knows but it doesn't really matter. This about more than opening the Orange Hall to the public. The ED has to get more feet through the doors or the show is going to end. Cost are going up and revenue is going down. If they don't get more people in then the price will have be raised even more. The 2 dollar increase for this Aprils show still did not cover expenses. 

Give these guys a chance to work it out.

Pete

fl9turbo2 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Then why permit it to be announced here?

Because it is NEWS that concerns an important segment of the hobby. And it was posted here with the permission of the National TCA president...the man who wrote the letter.

It is abundantly clear that you are against this move. Your many posts in this thread are evidence of this. However, you are reaching too far and too hard to promote your position. Perhaps you ought to step back, count to 10 and give some thought to what you're saying.

Change is always tough - I get that. In this case, change is critical to the future success of the York TCA Meet. Whether you like it or not, the York TCA meet has changed. It is not a small, "good ol' boys" show any more. It has grown far beyond that, but some aspects of the meet have not changed with the times.

I agree Rich change is tough, What had rubbed me the wrong way is how TCA national seems like they are the govern body for the meet and they are not, This is a Eastern Division function and they have to decide, I would have prefer to have the ED the big 4 and TCA National jointly put out a statement outlined what's happened and there plans,  but no one has given ED a chance to do its work.  I feel you have been the only one to offer your support and what I mean in more than words to help. Will change happen, maybe but there are larger issues here not just the opening of one event, So lets give the ED time to dot there I and cross there T's before we just open the doors, There are a lot of things to consider

1 The cost to open the show to the public, To keep the doors open longer and to keep staff and security longer, will the fairgrounds allow us to keep the doors open longer will we have to pay the medical staff to stay

2 Impact on non dealers will the open to the public affect selling by non dealers, Will non members have to get tax numbers in order to sell or will the event be able  to be split between dealers and members

3 Will the division loose its non profit status the division is now listed as a non profit organization will they loose there status and if we do loose that status will we now be subject to taxes

these are just some of the things that have to be answered before we can move on any change, We cant change overnight and we cant blow it up and start over but this rush from everyone to just open the doors is not going to happen today or tomorrow anything the division does will not go into affect until at least april 2017  so lets give ED a chance to do its work

 

Interesting points, not sure why your national organization would be involved in a meet they do not run.

Don't almost all the other TCA divisions open their meets to the public? At this point in history unless the members attending a closed meet wish to absorb all the costs associated with holding it I can't see them doing anything but dwindling membership wise. Who wants to pay for something they don't use? Bet a lot of folks are getting some popcorn to read the continuing discussion. It has always baffled me why people would hold on to their stuff for 6 months to dump it cheap at York when they could sell it for more earlier.

BobbyD posted:

fl9turbo2 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Then why permit it to be announced here?

Because it is NEWS that concerns an important segment of the hobby. And it was posted here with the permission of the National TCA president...the man who wrote the letter.

It is abundantly clear that you are against this move. Your many posts in this thread are evidence of this. However, you are reaching too far and too hard to promote your position. Perhaps you ought to step back, count to 10 and give some thought to what you're saying.

Change is always tough - I get that. In this case, change is critical to the future success of the York TCA Meet. Whether you like it or not, the York TCA meet has changed. It is not a small, "good ol' boys" show any more. It has grown far beyond that, but some aspects of the meet have not changed with the times.

I agree Rich change is tough, What had rubbed me the wrong way is how TCA national seems like they are the govern body for the meet and they are not, This is a Eastern Division function and they have to decide, I would have prefer to have the ED the big 4 and TCA National jointly put out a statement outlined what's happened and there plans,  but no one has given ED a chance to do its work.  I feel you have been the only one to offer your support and what I mean in more than words to help. Will change happen, maybe but there are larger issues here not just the opening of one event, So lets give the ED time to dot there I and cross there T's before we just open the doors, There are a lot of things to consider

1 The cost to open the show to the public, To keep the doors open longer and to keep staff and security longer, will the fairgrounds allow us to keep the doors open longer will we have to pay the medical staff to stay

2 Impact on non dealers will the open to the public affect selling by non dealers, Will non members have to get tax numbers in order to sell or will the event be able  to be split between dealers and members

3 Will the division loose its non profit status the division is now listed as a non profit organization will they loose there status and if we do loose that status will we now be subject to taxes

these are just some of the things that have to be answered before we can move on any change, We cant change overnight and we cant blow it up and start over but this rush from everyone to just open the doors is not going to happen today or tomorrow anything the division does will not go into affect until at least april 2017  so lets give ED a chance to do its work

 

Interesting points, not sure why your national organization would be involved in a meet they do not run.

Don't almost all the other TCA divisions open their meets to the public? At this point in history unless the members attending a closed meet wish to absorb all the costs associated with holding it I can't see them doing anything but dwindling membership wise. Who wants to pay for something they don't use? Bet a lot of folks are getting some popcorn to read the continuing discussion. It has always baffled me why people would hold on to their stuff for 6 months to dump it cheap at York when they could sell it for more earlier.

The other problem is what's happened to every show you have the "Bay affect" we can go to web sites like this one and to dozens and dozens of web sites and buy our trains and never leave our homes and find just as good prices as at York I see different auction sites you can bid online and get nice stuff sent to your home I remember you had to go somewhere and sit and bid now you can do it from you chair and save the gas and hotel and membership to TCA.  And that's just the new reality of every hobby

Because it is NEWS that concerns an important segment of the hobby. And it was posted here with the permission of the National TCA president...the man who wrote the letter.

Rich,

 I acknowledged that you posted the information with permission.
If its news for the OGR group, why isn't it news for the members of the TCA?

C W Burfle posted:

Rich,

 I acknowledged that you posted the information with permission.
If its news for the OGR group, why isn't it news for the members of the TCA?

Maybe that's a question for the TCA president.

C W Burfle posted:
If its news for the OGR group, why isn't it news for the members of the TCA?

Sir, it is news. Why don't you see it on the ED TCA website? It would appear that the ED TCA website was last updated before the April meet. We should be thanking OGR for the very timely information. I am confident that you will receive information in your mailbox within the next few months.

trumptrain posted:

I'm really in line with the progressive thinking here!  Thank you Rich for sharing the letter from our TCA president and part of your letter to TCA from OGR.  

I like it that the Orange Hall is open to the general public only on Saturday.  Saturday is a day when most ordinary working folks could potentially make a trip ( 1 - 2 hours or more ) to York.  Where else is the ordinary non- TCA member going to see the latest and greatest from the top train manufactures, custom layout businesses, custom building businesses, and meet publications personnel etc.   TCA members will have access to all buildings all days of York meets ... allowing the buying and selling of trains to go on as usual.  As I understand it from vendors, York is pretty slow on Saturdays as it stands now anyway.  Of course I try avoid speculating, however, I'll bet TCA will even pick up new members if they have a slick recruiting booth set up in the Orange Hall.

Sounds to me like a win - win - win - win solution that is being presented here.  A Win for both vendors and manufactures, a win for TCA, a win for expanding the hobby and building public awareness, and a win the general public.  

The ideas put forth by the OGR, the manufactures, and TCA National are certainly more than worth trying out.  We will never know how things will turnout until these new ideas are tried out.  As a TCA member I give my full support and will continue my membership in TCA if this plan goes forth. I will continue to attend on Fridays so I can purchase in the member halls and avoid the crowds in the Orange Hall on Saturdays.   

I am an Orange Hall vendor and have been advocating for this change for years. I FULLY agree with trumptrain's comments above. The above are the points that I have tried to make to TCA when offering support for this idea.

Our organization, the TCA, is dwindling in membership. The best way to attract new members is to allow the general public to get a taste of the York show by opening the Orange hall to them on Saturdays, our slowest day. Saturday is the day that most have off from work and children, the future of our hobby are off from school. If they come, see and buy from the Orange hall and are informed, at a recruitment booth in the Orange Hall lobby, that there are more halls of trains for sale if one becomes a member of TCA, I believe the TCA membership roster will increase with younger persons becoming interested in the hobby.

To address some things I have read in other comments on this post, I offer the following:

• One person said that members that have a Pennsylvania tax ID should be allowed to exhibit in the Orange Hall to take advantage of the extra attendance if the meet opens to the public on Saturday. Anyone can apply for space in the Orange Hall. A Pennsylvania transient vendor sales tax license is not difficult to get. The tax license and available space are the only requirements that I know for an Orange Hall location. I was granted a booth space upon my first inquiry about an Orange Hall location.
• For those that said they would stop their TCA membership if the public was admitted and shop on public days only, you will be sacrificing other benefits of TCA membership also such as the quarterly news letters, access to the resource library at the Toy Train Museum in Strasburg, Annual TCA national conventions and access to the member halls at York on Thursday and Friday.

As an Orange Hall vendor, longtime TCA member and small business man, I agree with trumptrain. Public admission to the Orange Hall on Saturdays is a win for the public, the vendors and the TCA. I heartily support this proposal!

The ED has to get more feet through the doors or the show is going to end. Cost are going up and revenue is going down.

Although I may be in favor of the prospect of the orange hall public operating hours being added in future meets, only time will tell if the idea is a success and vendor sales increase and TCA membership grows. However I am not in favor of any thought now or in the future of the situation changing for the private halls. I know too many private vendors that would bail with new vendor rules, destroying the fabric of the show. Most of the stuff in the orange hall (back half) is internet accessible. People are there to see the product and buy at the show if it's cheaper than they can get online. (think of why electronics stores like Best Buy are disappearing). Personally I spend 90% of my time in the vendor halls and a minimum in the dealer halls. That is where my interests lie. Most commenters here seem to frequent the dealer halls exclusively or for the majority of the time of their attendance.

One thing that has not been mentioned as a disatisfier for the large dealers is the burden of the logistics of attending the show. Travel, trucks for transport, lodging (outrageous) and meals for the sales crews for 4/5 days gets expensive and is a rising expense.

Maybe the show is going back to it's roots. No manufacturers present (no dealer halls).  Just private sellers selling. Like a larger weekend show.

Just a few alternate thoughts.

Rich

l'll bet Rich has had second thoughts about having posted this news.

I am not in favor of the TCA York Meet being open to the public.

1) TCA is a Private Club, attending the York Meet is one of the biggest benefits of being a TCA member, it's the primary reason why I joined TCA. Make the Orange hall open to the public on Saturdays for a full day, and guess what, why would I, or anyone else, keep paying their TCA membership dues?

2) A Public opening could result all of us paying Pennsylvania state sales tax on everything we purchase at the York Meet, making the deals less attractive, and taking away another perk to being a TCA member and attending the York meet. 

3) There are already plenty of other train shows in the area already open to the public, most have become poorly attended over the last decade...so, opening to the public may not create a big change in the York Meet attendance numbers.

What I would do to increase attendance at the York meet is to get more TCA members to come to the York Meet, bring their friends or children or grandchildren, this might create new TCA members.

Here is my plan to get a better turnout of TCA members:

1) Totally do away with Thursday. The noon-6:30pm hours are not long enough to see and do it all.  

2) Friday and Saturdays should both be full days. If Saturday were a full day, many of us wouldn't have to take a day off from work, we could come on Saturday and bring our children and friends, and their children too. As it is now Saturday is not a good day to be at the York meet, with the 2PM closing time, most dealers are packing up by noon or earlier, it's really not worth the trip.

****Finally, whatever is done, especially if it involves such a big change as a Public opening of the York Meet, should be fully explained to the TCAED members by the TCAED, and then it should be put up for a vote by the TCAED members****

OK! Enough hand wringing on what, where, how, if, etc. public should be left in.

Time to stop talking and start doing.

It's time now for the ED, national, state of Pa revenue dept. and some others to get together and work out the problems York is having, now and in the future. 

Doing nothing is not a option, leaving it the same will only hasten the end of the greatest show in trains.

Time to close this thread. 

Dear All

This what I am seeing cross the board with other hobbies as well.  Coins, paper money, baseball cards, comic books and stamp collections are going through a decline in member ship as well. Every time I go to a local event I am in the one of the youngest members and I am in my late forties. The local LHS by my job has reduced the train items to almost zero. They had a  realignment of the inventory and now mostly carry off road cars and trucks only and they have been around for the last 10 years.When I first moved to the White Plains area their where about 7-10 LHS that where open now their less then three.

This was my first time at York and I was very impressed with everything there.  I have been reading on and off what York TCA want to do with the show to increase the number of attendees. I have one simple suggestion to expend the show to include all day Saturday and Sunday. I can hear the vendors screaming now. But here are the simple facts: younger folks can not take Thursday or Friday off and go to the meet.  Because of family and work obligations it is almost impossible for us younger folks to attend.  Currently the Saturday show is half day and not worth me driving 4 hours one way to attend the show.  Now if it was extend to all day Saturday and Sunday you will have more people attending.

I would also like point of that other train events are held on the weekends. I do not believe that was pointed out on any of threads.

Note that I am a government employee and I had hard time finding cover for my one day off to attend the meet. I requested the time off two months in advance. I can just cannot image what it is like for someone in the private sector trying to get a day or two off during the work week.

All I am asking is that Eastern Division TCA consider expending the meet to include the weekend before they change the format.

nvocc5 posted:

................

Note that I am a government employee and I had hard time finding cover for my one day off to attend the meet. I requested the time off two months in advance. I can just cannot image what it is like for someone in the private sector trying to get a day or two off during the work week............................

Some jobs in the private sector may have flexibility to take vacation. If your employer demands an explanation for a vacation day, then they really don't offer you vacation, they offer you conditional leave.  for some that is their unfortunate situation and they may need to stick with it for retiurement planning purposes, etc.

I understand some industries do have requirements for vacations (some jobs in banking come to mind) where you can't take less than 1 full week or even two weeks at a time.  I agree that makes it hard to take time off from work, but that's a specific case.  For anyone who can take a day or 2 here or there, it should be somewhat workable once in a while.  I can see more of an issue if York was in the middle of the summer, then seniority and the ability to take vacation when you want could come more into play (newer people not having the flexibility), but I don't see mid April and mid October as high vacation usage at most companies.

-Dave