Information resources for improving the operation of Postwar trains?

Bob Hannon has published three books, two on Lionel, and one on Flyer. I have the Lionel books, but only use them once in a break while.

Other online resources:

Olsen's library  - this library has the Lionel factory service manual, plus pages that were created by Olsen's.
Bob Hannon's books

Just trains maintenance article

Tranz4mr's information on transformers

I have seen the American Flyer manual online, but I don't have that site bookmarked.

I have Hannon's Ref. Manuals I (Steamers, Diesels, and Electrics) and II (Motorized Units Rolling Stock & Accessories).  I also have advertising (quite well done, in fact) for a third book "coming soon" titled O-Gauge Reference Manual 1--Motorized Units by "Smith and Hannon."  I don't know if the Smith-Hannon manual was ever completed and sold.

EDIT:  I just checked the Hannon books link in CW's post, and it's shows the same advertising I have and referenced in my post.  "Coming Soon" is going on 20+ years.

The advertising pieces I have (one small and one larger) also reference Hannon's AF manual.

~25 years ago I needed both pre-war and post-war 313 bascule bridges repaired and serviced.  Don't know how I got the referral, but I sent the bridges to the late Richard J. Luppold.  He did a great job with both bridges, and with the bridges he included a pamphlet on letter size paper that included the LIONEL service manual pages in an enlarged format, and a two-page summary of repair tips that he'd written.

Also, back in the '80's, Greenberg published a four-volume set of Service Manuals which were basically the LIONEL service manuals in a larger format that included parts prices of the day.  It was edited by Isaac Smith; perhaps the same Smith collaborating with Hannon on the planned repair manual mentioned above.

Lastly, K-Line also published a repair manual that was another large volume containing LIONEL's service manual pages.  I don't recall seeing any information in either the Greenberg four volume set or the K-Line book that was anything more than just copies of LIONEL's standard service manuals.

So if I understand correctly, the 4-volume set of big Greenberg manuals with the white covers that sells for $200 really doesn't contain additional information beyond the 700-page single volume I already have?

I should have also mentioned... Dennis Waldron who is a member here has occasionally shared repair tips and technical info related to the scale Hudsons.  I'm not sure if he's ever published a book but if he did I would buy it!  It's lesser-known information from "insiders" like Dennis that I'm especially seeking.

I'm sorta to the new hobby (and I think it was my pull test thread you mention) but I've found that most of it comes from simply tinkering - getting some basic manuals, taking stuff apart, seeing and understanding how things works, and surfing the 'Net for ideas.

The most important thing is good mechanical skills. The old trains aren't rocket science. What they most often need is general cleaning and lubrication, and perhaps straightening of bent parts.

Ted, I have not had to use my 4-vol. set hardly at all; I'm a hobbyist and I don't repair or service other people's trains.  I mention the light use because I haven't compared page-by-page the single vol. Greenberg you mention and that I also have, or the K-Line book either, to the 4-volume set.

I can say that I don't recall seeing any text or pages in the 4-vol. set that didn't look like LIONEL page layout, type, illustrations, etc.

CW's reference to Just Trains web site is Dennis Waldron's writing on how to keep post war trains running.  Dennis has said on this or some web site that he is not planning on doing a book as he does not have the time.   The four volumn white books put out by Greenburg are just reproductions of the Lionel service manual and contain no new information.  I have talked with Bob Hannon and he said that his post war repair business dropped to the point were he got out of it.   It did not sound like another book was in the works. 

There are many repair articles and columns in various train publications, which in total have lots of good information.  There are also several blog style web sites, like this one, that have lots of information in old posts.  There is lots of information on You Tube. I sit here hoping someone will orgnize all this into a well illustrated book.

i agree with Ace that a lot of what is need for post war trains is just good mechanical pratices. Wheels need to be tight and the treads need to run true, shafts need to be straight and parallel, bearings need to have proper journal clearance. Electrically, there needs to be a good low resistance path to the motor, good commutation is a must, armature to pole piece clearance needs to be uniform, etc.  Side rod and valve gear mechanisms need to work smoothly and freely.  Then there is cleaning and lubrication.  Good track work is also required to get good operation.

i always hope for new information to be published, but I doubt it will be coming. We are in a declining hobby which has had more than its share of publications in the past. 

David,

Bah-Humbug! On the last part. My Goodness! We need a lot more positive attitudes these days. Goodie-Dog Poop! We got more than enough negative attitudes floating around on the forum, or haven't you noticed . There's so many publications out there for the lay-person. All ya gotta do is look.....simple idea is it not?

BTW  Here's the email for Dennis Waldron it's: dewaldron@dewassoc.com  

quote:

So if I understand correctly, the 4-volume set of big Greenberg manuals with the white covers that sells for $200 really doesn't contain additional information beyond the 700-page single volume I already have?

The 700 page single volume is a condensed version of the original Lionel factory service manual. The four volume set is also a reprint of the original Lionel factory service manual. It has many more pages, and a lot more information than the 700 page version, but most folks would not find that extra information to be useful. I have both.

This post got me wondering, was/is there a repair guide or service manual done either by Lionel or a third party that was for Pre-war trains? (O or standard gauge)  Sorry to jack the post a little but it seemed better to ask it in this thread instead of a new thread. 

This is the multi-volume set I was thinking of.  The least expensive set currently available is priced at $200, which I would rather not spend if they don't contain any "new" information. 

C.W., any chance that you can give an example of the type of information in these books that's not in the small, thick volume with the orange cover?  Also... in the event that they can be found individually, is coverage of the locomotives limited to volumes 1 and 2?  Thanks!

>> especially modifying them to perform BEYOND the original factory specs?

Installing an ERR TMCC board in postwar locomotives improves their low speed performance.

Bill

Penn,

In all my years I've not seen one. Most information comes from multiple sources. The best guide for prewar information would be the, TCA "Q". Many articles have been printed over the years. All editions can be found in the TCA Library Archives.

Bill,

I think the OP had keeping everything original in mind. I do believe the idea was to boost engine performance by tweaking original components.

It had been years since I needed to use mine. They were packed away years ago. Just to satisfy my own mind I too would like to know. A wonderful thread with good information.

Ted, checked Ebay and my four volume Greenberg set is going to Ebay as soon as I can snap some photos.  Thanks for the heads-up.

The four volume Greenberg set that Ted shows is the first edition. I have the second edition, which has colored covers.

What sort of extra stuff is in the four volume edition....

I guess the largest number of pages would be the original parts listings, which were mostly left out of all the small format reprints that I have seen. I think the second four volume edition also has obsolete pages that the small edition does not have. (Don't know about the first edition).

Some folks may not be aware that Lionel periodically issued new or updated pages, along with instructions to discard the older ones. From what I've seen, that is how most shops maintained their manuals. The four volume set has as many of those obsolete pages as Greenberg could find.

Earlier someone wondered whether the Smith who edited the four volume manual was the same Smith who worked with Bob Hannon. I think not. You'd have to ask Bob Hannon to be certain. I believe the Smith who worked with Bob Hannon was Richard Smith, who still manufactures reproduction parts, and owns Smittys

Another person asked about prewar material.

Lionel did offer some tools and published a small service manual prior to World War II. The manual is scarce, and I have not had the opportunity to examine one.
They did publish parts lists, which are relatively easy to find. There was a Greenberg book that contained reprints of those parts lists. I think it can also be purchased as a DVD from Bob Osterhoff.

Olsens library has some images of original prewar documentation, which does include some service instructions.

CW,

The prewar information I have put together over the years is priceless to me. I have all of the material my grandfather past down to me. There was no Lionel Prewar Service manual in his things. Everything I kept filled a four drawer filling cabinet. People have asked to borrow files, I cannot do it. I have Greenberg's Prewar Lionel Guide. It was edited by Robert Osterhoff. It contains quite a bit of prewar information. TCA Archives contain a wealth of information. I've used it many times.

Most everything has been put into storage for me by my children. I've been there one time. The lockers are inside of a building that has climate control and pest free. My things are supposed to be safe.

I've started to sell what I can no longer use. Things are selling as fast. I will be putting things in the, For Sale section soon. I have to have my daughter do it for me.

CW & Carl I appreciate all of you help, Thank you. 

quote:

There was no Lionel Prewar Service manual in his things.

Unless he had a Prewar Lionel Authorized Service Station, I am not surprised that your Grandfather didn't have one. They are rather scarce. My buddy has had a couple pass through his hands.

Not many folks have an original copy of the Postwar Service manual either, although they became more readily available when the reprints came out.

These manuals were not intended for customers, only service stations.

Even the original Modern Era service manuals, in the glossy white paper binders, or Red binders aren't that common. The Greenberg ones, which were authorized by Lionel, are more common.

The Modern era service manual is posted on the Lionel web site, and can be downloaded for free.

CW,

I appreciate your input. Way back when my grandfathers buddies would bring their trains over and the old guys would run trains & drink coffee. I would sit and listen to everything they would tell me. I learned so much back then from their hands on techniques. The stories I remember most was about a new train club that was called, TCA. This was in the early days when all the train news was at the LHS. A few said they hope it lasts. Others had their doubts.

quote:

 This was in the early days when all the train news was at the LHS

When I started, the only publication that I knew about were the Ladd checklists. Fellow enthusiasts, old magazine ads, and old catalogs were the primary source of information. I am not certain when Greenberg published the first price guides, but I think prewar came out before postwar. Then this spiral bound book from TM came out.........

(Which came first, TM books or Postwar Greenberg?)  - I am uncertain.

I've got two books that were published by OGR in the late 90's by Dr Tinker, I believe they were reprints of a column in the magazine. Lots of great info on the whole range of equipment. Don't think they are currently available but I believe worth looking for if you work with the older equipment.

Scotie

I'll have to dig out my spiral bound TM book. I have one of his first, autographed at York. I'll check the date. Bruce Greenberg follows the forum. It would be nice if he would chime in. I've heard rumors that I'd rather not mention.

Those pre-and post war locos I rebuilt, I rebuilt as originally made.  Lionel, Marx, and a Jusan.  Even rebuilt "good as new," run so much less smoothly at slow speeds compared to today's that I just put them up on a high shelf.

Transferring the body to a completely new, modern, chassis, works wonders, as you would expect.  I have done several this way with a tinplate Marx 0-4-0 - I used the chassis from Lionel Thomas line -  Percy I think.   I used the chassis guts out of the little Atlas Atlantic twice to fit small diecast Marx or Lionel bodies: its small compared to most and so usually slips right inside a traditional 0-4-0 diecast body.  

quote:

I'll have to dig out my spiral bound TM book.

You got me off my rear.

The Spiral Bound edition of the TM Book is dated 1974. I remember getting a copy at my local hobby shop. (It was a general merchandise one, covering many hobbies, including trains).

The 1988 edition of Greeberg's Guide to Lionel Trains, Volume II contains a chapter on the history of Greenberg Publishing. According to the book:

The Greenberg prewar guide came out in 1975, the postwar in late 1977.

He did a reprint of the postwar Lionel Service manual before either of these price guides. This was a full format, 1,500 page loose leaf manual. They turn up from time to time, but I don't have one.

As for post-war Lionel, I get all I need from "Greensberg's Repair & Operating Manual dated 1985 & Jeff Kane.

what are the most helpful resources you've come across for repairing, maintaining, and improving the operation of your Postwar trains?

this place!

Thanks for starting this thread.  After being away from the hobby for so long, and having had most everything packed away until recently, I didn't realize how much "repair manual" material I had on hand.

The only repair manual title I can add that hasn't been mentioned previously is Ray L. Plummer's Toy Train Repair Made Easy--21 Lionel Postwar Projects published by Kalmbach/CTT in 2000.

I also have Peter Riddle's Greenberg's Wiring Your Lionel Layout, Intermediate Techniques published in 1993.

Even rebuilt "good as new," run so much less smoothly at slow speeds compared to today's that I just put them up on a high shelf.

Lee, I thought about that too.  I was even willing to sacrifice a 3rd Rail brass loco to improve the performance of one of my traditional engines.  The problem I've run into is that the old parallel plate motors have a very different form factor, and different mounting points, especially the ones that mount with a screw through the top of the boiler shell.  

Edit: For a short while I had in my possession a Hudson chassis which had been remotored with a Pittman motor from the 1940s.  The motor ran amazingly well, but the chassis had issues.  This gave me some ideas, but swapping in a modern can motor isn't straightforward, even on a 726 or 773.

I think often about the manufacturers' own attempts to remotor old trains, especially MTH's tinplate with the "contemporary" drives.  Lionel's Percy is another good example.  If I recall, the first Percy sold by Lionel DID have the transverse motor chassis borrowed from the starter set 4-4-2.  But how does someone without access to a 3-D printer, CNC mill, or mass production tooling facilitate this type of conversion?

The Flyer folks have done some interesting things... There are bolt-in can motors, replacement worms that double the gear ratio.  And every year at York there's a guy in the silver hall selling 5-pole "super motors."  Before we were spoiled by LionChief Plus and RailKing/PS2, weren't any Lionel guys doing this sort of thing??

Many years ago a company called Scaled Tin Rail offered a regearing service for Lionel locos.  I would love to see specifics of how they did it.  Along with reference books, that's the kind of info I was hoping to surface with this thread.  

Thanks to all who have posted so far!  -Ted

VEry good points, Ted.  I've seen re-powering kits for HO and i don't see why we could not have them for O gauge.   It definitely isn't easy to install a can more in an old loco.  I looked at it but it seems like too much fuss to me. 

CW,

I appreciate your efforts, Thank you. My wife is unpacking for me. I have to sit here and watch, not able to move. She keeps telling me that everything's going to eBay. She's been checking prices already. There goes almost 60 years of various toy train repair manuals. I can't remember what all I have put away. I'll never be able to use them again. I sold quite a few before I........