Is GGD Heavyweight cars "cookie-cutter"?

If the railroad used Pullman cars, they would be "cookie-cutter". The difference would be the timeframe. Those in the photo above were pre-air conditioning.

A smooth roof would represent a period when the roof sides were closed in for air conditioning ducting.

The seating may have differed by railroad specs, but I would not be able to notice that.

I would look at the roofline for the time period that you are targeting.

The GGD coaches are "Paired window" basically the PRR P70 coach.   Other RRs also used Paired window coaches such as B&O.     This means that the windows were in pairs with small verticals within each pair and a thicker/wider vertical between pairs.    NYC used single window coaches that were bascially the same size.

PRR later modernized them and removed the vertical within the pairs to make large "picture windows"   

The major car builders did build "catalogue" cars in the heavyweight era.    And RRs built some themselves.

IN the modern era of streamliners, I think there were more "cookie cutter' jobs.    By then you were pretty much down to two major builders - Budd and Pullman Standard.    They built stuff to designs they developed for the most part as I understand.     There were more than one design for each type of car, maybe 5-6 or more even, but not unlimited.    So to order a new stream lined train, an RR, might order 10 sleepers of various types, a diner, 4 coaches and a lounge from the designs on hand.

In talking about heavyweight passenger cars in the pre 1946 time frame one should distinguish between sleepers/parlor cars built and owned by the Pullman Co., and diners, coaches and head end equipment owned by the railroads.  As noted in the earlier post the major railroads often had their own designs for coaches and diners (PRR P70's roof cross sections were somewhat unique in radius and width, UP/SP Harriman distinctive radial roofs, ATSF heavy side sills, some like PRR  favored paired windows, others like NYC single window)  Since Pullman built, owned, and operated sleepers prior to 1946, they controlled the configuration of a large and interesting family of heavyweight designs. After Pullman's 1946 sale of the sleeper fleet to the railroads (part of a anti-trust settlement), the railroads were free to repaint and re-letter the sleepers in their road colors and schemes.  In some cases the only change might be replacing PULLMAN on the center of the letter board with the railroad's name.  The PRR contracted with Pullman to continue to operate their sleeper fleet and to show that PULLMAN in small letters was applied to the letter board at the ends of the car.

Since Pullman controlled heavyweight sleeper designs and floor plans, the  GGD 12-1 and 8-1- 2 sleepers could be termed "cookie cut".  Other than paint schemes, the same bodies could be used in pre and post war paint and lettering schemes.  However to hold down manufacturing cost, GGD did take some liberties in modelling the bodies of heavyweight coaches and diners.  In a train of heavyweights  ATSF design heavyweight cars are easily spotted as their sides are noticeably lower than Pullman and other railroad designs. Unfortunately for ATSF modelers, I believe the only true to prototype ATSF heavyweight baggage, RPO, coaches and diners in O scale were from Pecos River Brass, and kits offered years ago by American Standard Car Co. 

The basis for my question is I have a ggd obs"Independence Hall" and I am trying to get the rest of the train. I can't find coaches or the diner anywhere so if I obtain another road name 6 axle coach car, can I repaint the car or are the window arrangements different for a PRR compared to say a UP car or an N&W car?

A note on the GGD 12-1 pullman:    I read that it was the most common design by far used by pullman.     It was 12 sections and 1 other type that was a room.     Section were the cheapest sleeper accomodation.    They are the bunks you see in photos with curtains across the aisle side.    The B&O kept a fleet going a very long time because of their routings out of Washington DC.    I was told that government agencies would not pay for more than a section berth, well into  the 50s or longer with their employees traveled.    So B&O could use those 12 section pullmans easily.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

The basis for my question is I have a ggd obs"Independence Hall" and I am trying to get the rest of the train. I can't find coaches or the diner anywhere so if I obtain another road name 6 axle coach car, can I repaint the car or are the window arrangements different for a PRR compared to say a UP car or an N&W car?

Modeling PRR: the answer is no, unless you're willing to compromise accuracy.
Here is what looks to be a very nice PRR diner:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201888...e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

For coaches, if you haunt ebay you can find the resin P-70 kits or the GGD version. Or, check out Allegheny Scale Models:
http://alleghenyscale.com/

To give a clear answer:

In making these different car projects we chose a prototype to start with, PRR P70 was our first project. Then we genericized it to appear like some other Road Name 80' Coaches.  PRR measures from the inside of the passenger compartment, where other roads measure from coupler to coupler. Then we took the liberty of painting them some scheme that may not have had 80' coaches exactly like the paired-window coaches, but roads that some customers still wanted them in, even 2 railers, primarily because there was nothing available in that size for their favorite road.

The Diner / Obs and Head end cars all came from PRR prototypes. 70% of production was just PRR. We then changed the underbody, steps and trucks some roof vent detail to generisize these also, and paint them the road names that sold as Coaches.

The Sleepers, 8-1-2 and 12-1 are pool cars that all started out as Pullman cars from WWII. Eventually the roads they ended up on painted them as their own, and we modeled them very closely to each road.

So "Cookie Cutter" might apply to some of the projects, but didn't apply to any single project all the way through. They were always based on a pure scale model of something.

In going forward, we are now making the Harriman cars. While these cars were not on some of the roads that we are offering them for, most customers know this, and order them anyway because they want a great looking car from the Pre/Post War Era for their own modeling needs. But most of the orders are for accurate SP, SP Lines, UP, IC roadnames.

That's how we do things here at GGD.

Scott Mann

Thanks Scott for your clarification. I have the 12-1 PRR Sleepers on order from GGD... plus other dealers seem to have remnants from the last run [ BTW, do the first runs GGD Sleepers and Baggages have RB's?] It's the Combo, RPO, Diner and Coaches that are tough to find... and I do run 3 rail.

I do have the 4 car set of the P70 FAR plus two of the Brass P70's. However in asking on this forum, It was rare at best to run 4 wheeled coaches on long distance 6 axle heavyweight trains mainly do to the differences in ride quality given from the different trucks. 

So Either I wait it out for another run of the GGD HW sets or find cars from other roads and repaint.  I don't car if some roof details are off as long as the window config from the other roads are the same for the PRR models made. I can fix minor roof vent details prior to painting.

"However in asking on this forum, It was rare at best to run 4 wheeled coaches on long distance 6 axle heavyweight trains mainly do to the differences in ride quality given from the different trucks. " 

I don't know the source of the above information - but if you're modeling PRR passenger trains it's totally wrong.  With the exception of a handful of heavyweight sleepers the PRR gutted for wartime duty, all PRR coaches (heavyweight and lightweight ) rode on 4 wheel trucks.  The late John Armstrong told me that the smoothest riding coach he ever rode in were PRR P85 postwar lightweights  riding on 4 wheel trucks. 

To learn more about postwar PRR passenger trains the most authoritative source is  Harry Stegmair's  Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains - Consists and Cars 1952   While top end trains PRR like the Broadway Limited were equipped with light weight cars, the many lessor trains often had heavyweight sleepers and coaches mixed in, particularly for seasonal peak travel. 

So Ed what you are saying it's ok in the 1930's time period train to have six axle OBS, sleepers and baggage cars mixed in with 4 axle p70 coaches?

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

So Ed what you are saying it's ok in the 1930's time period train to have six axle OBS, sleepers and baggage cars mixed in with 4 axle p70 coaches?

Why wouldn't it be OK?

Yes - a mix of P70's (4 wheel trucks) and heavyweight sleepers, diners, obs (6 wheel trucks) was prevalent in the 1930's.  PRR  heavyweight head end cars came in a mix of 4 and 6 wheel versions.  The short 60' baggage cars rode on 4 wheel trucks, while 1930's era 70' baggage and RPO cars rode on several styles of 6 wheel trucks.  To date the GGD heavyweight cars model air conditioned prototypes - upgrades PRR and Pullman aggressively pursued in the later part of the 1930's. 

If you want to capture the look of PRR passenger trains in a given era the single most valuable reference is a copy of PRRT&HS's Pennsylvania Railroad - Passenger Car Painting and Lettering.   It contains authoritative time lines showing the evolution of PRR s supplemented by text and photos.  As a general guidline in the late 1930's PRR heavyweights were painted solid Tuscan red with gold lettering -  no stripes.  The 3 stripe scheme GDD applied to many of their heavyweights was adapted in 1947 and therefore is well suited for postwar modelling. Initially the lettering & stripes were done in gold, later in 1952 the railroad switched to dulux or buff, a mustard color that was more visible and lower in cost.

For those that wish to faithfully model PRR practices,  pick your era first, and then research/select the painting/lettering matched to that era.  Those standards are  well documented thanks to the efforts of the PRRT&HS.  If you have specific questions the  PRR-modelling Yahoo group is very helpful in providing authoritative answers. 

Well I stand corrected. Although not the "end-all" looking at the liljestrand & sweetland book Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad vol#1: Coaches, most coaches pictured are of the 4axle type and at least two pictures of 4 axle and six axle cars are on the same train. The exception coach was one car a P70L#1302 purchased from the N&W in 1964 and white lined in 1967. By that time it was in commuter service with the Tuscan dip slap the white Keystone on the side scheme.

If anyone has a photo of a non-Santa Fe GGD dining car, please post it and we'll compare it with the SF model shown above.  Thank you, John in Lansing, ILL

This is where I have to compromise.  Santa Fe heavyweight cars were mostly unlike other heavyweight cars.  Most had steam ejector air conditioning, requiring access hatches on the roof.  A small number had mechanical air conditioning.  Trucks were not all of the same type commonly used by other railroads, paired windows only appeared on sleeping cars, and many other details, including the shade of green paint.  But I have a GGD 12-1 Santa Fe pullman and am pleased with it.  I have been unable to find the car name in the Santa Fe sleeping car book, but am still searching.  It'll work.  When it's in the train and moving, who cares if it has mechanical or steam ejector air conditioning?  (Or what the car name is.)

rattler21 posted:

If anyone has a photo of a non-Santa Fe GGD dining car, please post it and we'll compare it with the SF model shown above.  Thank you, John in Lansing, ILL