Kids unattended at train shows

On the other hand, my 11 year old daughter watches out for problems with other kids when they visit our layout. She tells them the rules and makes sure they behave properly and assists me as needed.

All the best,

Miketg

I'm all for kids being with a parent at shows, but I'm also cognizant of the inquisitive fascination kids have with trains.  Your fences are a good idea.  I'd park the heavy stuff and hand them a Lionel Thomas Lionchief remote and say, "Wanna Race?"  

It does not seem to make much difference whether the parents are with the kids or not. At the mall layouts, the kids grab stuff and the parents say nothing. When I tell the kids "no fingers, please" then, and only then, do the parents scold the kids.

Your eleven year old daughter is doing all train exhibitors a great service.

Sure there was. The father is liable for what their kids do. I'd have called the cops, just to make a point.

Still, there's not much you can do with people who will pick up your 'do not touch' signs to move them aside so they can pick up something (seen that happen several times). My primary hobyb is displaying WW2 US stuff at historical themed shows. You can't imagine the stuff that happens with us. I had a kid pick up a workinglight machine gun owned by a pal of mine and started to walk off with it. When cornered, the kid innocently said, "I'm taking it over to my Dad so he can see it," and pointed to someone a good 100 yards away. he even tugged on it, refusing to let it go, still intent on his mission. This was at a large airshow and getting a cop over wasn't tough. He went and got the father, walked him over, and explained what had happened. No anger to the kid from the father, I was the source of his anger. The cop was more shocked than I was, pulled him aside and later came over and explained that the kid was comitting a felony (walking away with a funbctional machine gun), and that finally lit the bulb over the Dad's head.

Had an entire family toss out all the crates (including a very rare and valuable bazooka rocket crate) and stuff in my WW2 Jeep at a show on an Army base and made it into their lunch table. Some of my stuff had bene tossed several feet from the Jeep. They even refused to get out when I came back and saw what'd happend, citing that their tax dollars paid for it, so they'd get out whenever they wanted to and not before. Got an MP to come over and they refused to get out for him, too. The MP's hand went on his taser and things got ugly, verbally. The MP later said, "I thought you were playing a joke on me, Sir, I wouldn't have thought people could be that stupid."

Interesting story by Lee.

I think everybody should spend a little time behind an exhibitor's table to appreciate what it can be like.

There is a reason some shows are closed to the general public.

When I am going to have a table at a show that is open to the public, I only bring items that I don't mind having handled.

I do several public shows a year.

I have some plastic fencing low that I put up around do not let kids in without control.

I learned my lesson long ago when running a display for a railway at an open house they were having. They said they would have my area fenced off they did not.

We roped it off but a little kid not being watched by parents ran in under the fence and grabbed a large steam engine that was running at speed he of course derailed the whole train but he had grabbed the running gear and his fingers were pinched in the running gear quite tightly Took a lot of work to get the fingers out lucky I did not get sued! 

No way do I let kids any where near my stuff now. 

At another event a kid grabbed a train off a clubs layout $3000 worth of train derailed and dropped 6 feet to the cement floor with damage to several cars and the engines.

A low plastic 2 foot high fence nice looking you can get at the local home improvement centre quite cheaply is long term insurance to keep your display safe.

A layout with a cheap HO or N scale engine or cars are cheap to replace but O gauge engines are as we know $300 and up for something good.

That is a lot of $ to risk getting destroyed.

And again if a kid licks is finger and touches the track saying  he got a shock or gets fingers pinched by a running engine like I had happen you really do not want to ever have to deal with a lawsuit.

Fence a public layout off! 

I think the greatest thing of late is Lionel with the Lion Chief controllers I would never let a kid touch a transformer with 120 volts coming in, and high amps going out.

But a set of remote control handhelds that I strap down to a board and reinforce so kids have less of a chance to break is the way to go.

As a father of two little boys, I have little patience for new-age parenting that creates, in my opinion, spoiled little monsters who are incapable of understanding the word "no." 

That being said, when you place your private property, in this case, toy trains in public view / display in an attempt to draw interest and attention, it is a given that some of that interest and intention will come from children, and children can and do break things even if they are well-behaved.  I don't want to seem like a jerk for saying so, but if the desire is to avoid risk of damage then don't display your trains in public or, if you do decide to display them, create a display with a suitable barrier that will prevent damage.  Otherwise, the complaint of damage strikes me as akin to complaining that you got wet when you went for a walk in the rain.

I guess we have been lucky in Tucson, at least so far. As a seller, I have seen very, very few kids without a parent at least within a few yards keeping an eye out. I've had kids pick up my stuff occasionally (I don't put expensive brass engines near the edge) and almost always a parent is right there saying no, don't touch that, just look. The display layouts have had occasional problems but nothing major. One good thing is that we don't have huge crowds, so it's easier to keep an eye on things than it is at some of the shows I used to go to back East. Of course, from a seller's point of view, a bigger crowd would be nice...

The funniest incident I've seen with a kid at train show was when a little kid picked up some kind of toy and the mother took his hand, put the toy back, and said quietly, "Don't touch that. That's not a toy." 

Building fences is exactly what we don't need.  It implies to stay away.  I don't care if any of my engines are damaged because the kids are what it is all about.

IMO, part of the problem is that most shows are advertised as

 "XXXXX Train & Toy Show".  The general public (not necessarily train people) see TOY Show and assume it is a Toys-R-Us type of place.  Free admission for kids under 12 further supports this idea. 

Tom B

If your club layout was open to the public 6 days a week like the club we have at the SDRRM, you might sing a different tune.  I guarantee that.     

Especially when it involves hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of equipment that can become the victim of permanent damage, whether by accident or deliberate, a situation that is more likely to happen the longer your exhibit is open to the public.

That's why in the case of the SD3R club, they have a semi-attached, interactive layouts tailored for kids to let them run trains, and whatever negative perception of barriers that you hold in your case is greatly offset in SD3R's case as the members interact with visitors daily, and occasionally even hand a remote to allow the public to try running them or permit them to come behind the scenes of the layout (all supervised, of course).  All while the trains run and are well-protected with smaller risks of damaging or destroying their hard-earned investments.  

At the Foley, Alabama (Mobile area) train show this past March, a woman complained,

fairly rudely, I believe, that there was "no Thomas layout; we came here to see Thomas!".

Nowhere in the advertising was "Thomas" mentioned.

This entitlement behavior seems to be getting more common. I have recommended that the name "Model Railroading Swap Meet" be substituted. One might miss a few of the typementioned above, and a little door revenue, but it would be worth it. Also, layouts are nice, and a few are good, but I have seen them deny paying vendors the table space. The last situation I saw (the Mobile show, earlier this month) was a Lego layout (for Pete's sake!) denying some small vendors (like me - not that I was affected) participation.

Really, train shows would be much nicer without the people.

The G&O garden railroad in the San Francisco Bay Area has a children's layout.  We encourage kids to touch and run trains.  We find that most kids are well behaved and respectful.

We realize that anything we put within reach of kids might be damaged.  We don't put equipment that we don't want to repair or that we can't afford to loose on the children's layout. Inexpensive Lionel and Williams engines are the primary motive power on the layout.

Here are some photos:

John

We aren't open 6 days a week but we do run shows all year round.  I have over 300 engines and most of the cars on the layout are mine.  So yup there are thousands of dollars there.    I will never change my tune when it comes to having kids at the layout  You will never see fences or barriers keeping them away from the layout  We do have the Soprano's layouts in another room dedicated to kids run time.

The SD3R Layout also is open year-round.  HUGE difference between being open once or twice a week/month as the case with your club versus almost every day of the week all year long.  Try it and put your existing convictions to the test.  You most likely will have a different outcome within a year.  

Nope I will not  In the 13 years we are open to the public we had one casualty

We did a modular show at the Philadelphia Art Museum last fall, we had one little girl run through the ropes and grab two passenger cars as they were going by!  I was five feet away, but she was so fast I didn't have time to intercept her before the deed was done.  Her mother just hurried her away without even an apology! 

Good thinking.

When I do my military displays, I bring some pretty cool and expensive stuff, but I never bring anything that could easily, 'walk away,' never anything terrible breakable (rarely an issue with military items) and never anything paper or fragile from age.

When it comes to train sales tables, I don't bring anything I couldn't handle dropping onto a concrete floor myself. I don't belong to any operating clubs but I was a member of a HO moldule group many years ago. Sure could tell you all stories from public interaction there.

Also was a short time member of a On30 module group, but quit once I started building my own layout. They have a free-flowing concept that can be apprached from either side. You gotta keep you head on a swivel when you're running like that. I saw a kid of who'd watched too much Thomas (he was about 12 or so) and thought watching Thomas made him a 'master shunter' and proceeded to prove it by spinning an On30 Peco turntable like a top, thankfully with no locomotive on it at the time. the owner of that module wasn't very happy, and we both made it clear he could hang around but he wasn't to manhandle the stuff. I think that was handled okay.

One problem i saw a lot of is a kid would ask to run trains with that group and often they'd be handed the throttle. The parents, thinking they had a babysitter for a while, would always vanish and then we'd have to later pry the throttle from their hands after way too long and another kid wanted a shot. Saw that lots of times. Its one the primary reasons I stopped building my own module to work with them and instead build my own layout...

Priceless!

Bruce

quote:

I don't care if any of my engines are damaged because the kids are what it is all about.

While some folks might agree that "kids are what it is all about", I'd bet that there are lots of folks who think otherwise.

As for my thoughts: there are some trains that are for kids, and others that are for adults.

I've been a part of a number of modular layouts at public shows, and I don't remember any real problems with kids. Of course, my mean looking face may have had something to do with keeping kids "in line".

Our display in the Black Hall at York years ago was another matter. I could have smacked two adult TCA members over the head.

lucky you. 

just this past tuesday had a kid in moms arms grab a box car and de-rail ten cars.

when I told the child now that you have touched my toys can I came to your house and play with your toys and the child said yes.

no respect for other peoples stuff!!!

You'd have more casualties than that if you were open 6 days a week, every week all year long...

Easy for you to say you won't do barriers when your public openings are as limited as they are now.  Like I said, try our schedule for a year, and then report back to us if you still think that way.  

You have no idea Ben...  

I thought that's what these were made for.

Gunrunner,  maybe she got bit by the BUG and could not help herself.   Their KIDS some are  and some are  remember either or we need them.

I think that you have a fantastic attitude.  As my mother says:  people before things.  We may have to take the boys to the next open house.  Long drive but it sounds like it will be worth it.

Here are some pics from our local train show last weekend.

Good crowd and I had kids operating the LionChief Thomas and friends all weekend;

Click on photos for a larger view!

I used the events metal fencing for a good view and keeping kids out unless controlled. Had someone at the gate or fence opening and as kids and parents came in gave them a squirt of hand sanitizer and paper towel to clean hands, many many parents said thanks for this. Some kids coming from food area nearby were covered in food bits so keeps things clean for all.

We are right there and with all little kids we insure that parents come in and control their kids. Several kids arrived to play without parents we always sent them away to find parents, amazing some had problems small kids with parents the other side of the hall and they were running around that is why you need to be careful!

Rules are stay on the brown carpet do not climb over or past it, no climbing on the board and controllers and please be gentle with the controllers. Amazing how many kids tried in vain to pull the controllers off the boards!!!! And some try to turn the dial around till it breaks reinforced it with metal brackets but they still try to turn it past the stops.

So we have me or a friend at entrance controlling who comes in and watching to make sure they do not go further though even with parents around some kids try to climb into the trains area.

Controllers are Lion Chief controllers for Thomas James and Percy, A controller for the Cranky the Crane, and push buttons for a loud steam whistle and a little Thomas cell phone with plug into old computer speakers so when they push it Thomas and other trains talk and they can hear it loud on the speakers.

Other layouts of interest were wooden trains folks brought along for kids to play and battery operated Thomas from the likes Walmart Target that kids broke a few and knocked on the floor occasionally from the tables.

Another boy that has spent many years watching my display brought along his own new Lionel Polar Express and ran it around I am stunned it did not derail more then it did flying around at breakneck speed more so I am surprised the hand held remote did not break!

The Train club layout for O featured many tracks and a platform for kids to get up and and run a Lion Chief remote for Thomas but I always worry about the club layout here  a $1000 + engine and train running on 2nd track within reach of little hands! And tracks within reach with a huge power supply and many amps waiting for someone with a wet hand to lay it across the rails for a shock.

I think that you can let people see your layout and operate it with a little care to safety if you make it really clear and keep them back you will have a lot less chance of having a conflict with people. If you leave it open then you are leaving yourself or club up for some liability, or potential damage to your stuff.

A well designed layout or fencing lets people see without having any conflicts.

We can make a positive welcoming display and still let people interact with the trains with a little care.

Hey, don't do that to animals (with kittens); that is animal abuse and like giving kids

bunnies at Easter, very cruel to the bunnies.  (the coffee is fine, though)  Maybe

just lucky, but I have had no problems with kids..."adults" in train or antique shows are a whole different matter!

The Garden Railway pics above give me some concern with all the power wires within reach behind.

Perhaps with laying out the power packs like this you might consider building a secure mount for them and cover to prevent wet fingers from reaching behind into the wiring behind or what looks like open plugs below.

120 volts and kids do not mix well.

A simple cover would make that a lot safer.

And there are a lot of amps for wet fingers in the output volts behind the transformers.

Easy for a kid to get under that board and get a foot or hand wound around wires under board and pull a plug part way out and get a good shock.

So he derailed ten cars!  Big deal  You think he will remember the trains or the old guy that yelled at him. 

I just started participating in running trains at shows with TTOS in So Cal. Kids get very excited when they see the trains. We have 4inch plexiglass to inhibit touching but it still happens. The majority of kids are well behaved. However, a few lack "home training." And their parents lack parenting skills. I would hate to see fences put up. Instead, I only bring    items that I know might get abused and I won't cry over. At the Orange County Fair we had non-stop kids for hours. They used the Lion Chief remotes with no problems, and a couple of weeks agoat the Banning Train Festival, Jeff(Captaincog) let one use his legacy remote. I cannot describe how excited his was. The only way to promote our hobby is to let young people experience it. I would hate to squash their excitement.

Bob

Our All Aboard Fastrackers group does about 14 shows a year which are usually 1 or 2 day shows. One show is oriented towards children and the parents there are the worst. We did make an intentional decision to set up at kids eye level on portable folding tables. We learned last year to make clear plastic guards to keep the kids from touching the layouts the hard way since one little gem decided to derail my engine twice and it went crashing down to the cement. What was even better about that show were the parents yelling at us that it was our fault that we did not have guards and so we had no reason to tell their little gems to not touch. One parent even tried to assault me over telling his precious monster to not touch.

We modified the layout with the guards and this year that same little monster came along and derailed the trains again but the guards kept them from the cement. The parents are far worse in my opinion than their offspring....the sad thing is that they have replicated. People seem to be of a group suffrage mindset that if they cannot have what you do then neither can you.

We do make a point of coaching new members to bring older and inexpensive trains to run so if something does happen then it does not hurt as much. Most of the inexpensive trains are usually more kid proof.

I see others set up fences and their little gems just crawl under or over and run up to the layout and grab stuff. We do our best to talk to parents and kids and get the parents to build something for their kids despite the ones that do not seem to care.

When a kid hands me two thousand bucks at a train show he can play with my trains and run them off the track. Till then keep he can keep his chocolate and booger encrusted fingers off my "toys".

We use low level plexiglass.......and, it seems to work fine...fairly unobtrusive.

Peter

Kids and Adults alike Seem To  Enjoy My Portable Layout Even Though There is a Pane of Plexiglass Between Them and the train. I'd rather wipe off the finger prints and nose prints once in while, rather than pick up trains off the floor. They can still get very close to the trains, but there is still that 1/8" plexiglass between them and the train. Maybe next train show, I'll take my grandson's Lionel Lion Chief sets along and let them run the trains from a safe distance..., outside of the plexiglass.

After reading this thread, I see one problem with displays at "public" train shows is who's footing the burden for such displays. We, the hobbyists and consumers of the train manufacurers is who, and while it's wonderful we're so in love and awe our of our hobby that we want to be ambassadors of it, where does the responsibility of the train manufacturers lie to promote their products to the general public?

I know many who will read this are going to think my viewpoint is either extremely simplistic or illogical at best or crazy and far-fetched at worse, but is it? Shouldn't the manufacturers be the ones who should promote via displays at "large" or regional general public venue shows the products they ultimately want to sell? They are the the end of the feeding chain and the ones money spent on trains eventually travels back to. If you think about it, we as ambassadors are actually salesmen for them advertising and showing their products at shows so why shouldn't the companies provide displays at such shows or at the very least provide trains gratus for clubs the run and display.

Why must model railroad hobbyists financially incur the risk of damaged train costs coming from their own pockets when by providing operating exhibits they're actually giving the train manufacturers free advertising? To me, that's akin to walking around sporting apparel sporting the name of the designer or manufacturer on it. To me those folks are paying those companies and/or designers for the privelege of being free advertising, a.k.a. walking billboards for them. 

For me, it's pretty simple. I don't consider my hobby a "burden" to display. It's something I thoroughly enjoy. I've had my "train trailer" at a show and the person in charge of the show wanted to "Pay" me for attending and bringing it. I said "No Thanks". It has been my pleasure. I've also had my "train trailer" at a local "pumpkin farm" for the last month. That's a local farm that invites guests to pick their own pumpkin and there is a corn maze, a petting zoo and various other activities. The owner of "Pumpkinland" has offered to pay for use of the display and again, I've said "No Thanks". After all, it was my idea to ask him if I could bring it in the 1st place, and that was three years ago. It's been at his farm every year since for his seasonal "Pumpkinland" display. Literally thousands of kids and adults alike have seen the display.  FUN FOR ALL.., including ME!