Legacy E8 electronics transplant to K-Line E8?

It would be a challenge.  One issue you have is transplanting the encoder on the motor, that will be pretty difficult if it's possible at all.

You do know about the sensor boxcar that's coming out at some point, right?  It would be a bunch easier to transplant that electronics into that engine somewhere and have the sensor track without the challenge of moving all the Legacy guts.

If the K-Line had cruise it might work.  The K-Line cruise encoder looks a lot like Lionel's.  Need to try it though.  Everything else but the ODY cruise motor would be easy.  G

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It would be a challenge.  One issue you have is transplanting the encoder on the motor, that will be pretty difficult if it's possible at all.

You do know about the sensor boxcar that's coming out at some point, right?  It would be a bunch easier to transplant that electronics into that engine somewhere and have the sensor track without the challenge of moving all the Legacy guts.

Thanks, GRJ.  Same light bulb came on for me over coffee this morning!  So, the K-Line E8s have TMCC.  If I add SensorCar electronics and IR transmitter to the dummy B unit, will crossing a SensorTrack send horn, bell, and/or other commands that the TMCC powered unit will respond to?

You bet, just like it would for any other unit.  I have high hopes for the sensor car stuff, I am a bit bummed that they dropped the lower cost semi-scale unit.  I was going to get a few of those and take them apart!  Now I have to take the more expensive scale units apart.  Maybe at some point ERR will offer a Sensor Car upgrade kit.

cnwdon posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It would be a challenge.  One issue you have is transplanting the encoder on the motor, that will be pretty difficult if it's possible at all.

You do know about the sensor boxcar that's coming out at some point, right?  It would be a bunch easier to transplant that electronics into that engine somewhere and have the sensor track without the challenge of moving all the Legacy guts.

Thanks, GRJ.  Same light bulb came on for me over coffee this morning!  So, the K-Line E8s have TMCC.  If I add SensorCar electronics and IR transmitter to the dummy B unit, will crossing a SensorTrack send horn, bell, and/or other commands that the TMCC powered unit will respond to?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You bet, just like it would for any other unit.  I have high hopes for the sensor car stuff, I am a bit bummed that they dropped the lower cost semi-scale unit.  I was going to get a few of those and take them apart!  Now I have to take the more expensive scale units apart.  Maybe at some point ERR will offer a Sensor Car upgrade kit.

Well not exactly.  The Sensor Car will trigger the pre-assigned action sounds for Legacy engines without a sensor BUT to do this with a TMCC engine you would need to use the sensor track to create a recording using the actions you want from the CAB2.  Remember the sensor track will only output Legacy 9 bit commands on it's pre-assigned actions.  To trigger TMCC commands it must be a recording created with the Cab 2/Sensor Track record playback function.

It can be done I did a legacy upgrade to a mth .. You have to get the flywheels off the motors of the Kline engines . Put the sensor  board on the Kline motor and the legacy flywheels are put on with a Allen key. Install the electronics your gtg 

MartyE posted:

Well not exactly.  The Sensor Car will trigger the pre-assigned action sounds for Legacy engines without a sensor BUT to do this with a TMCC engine you would need to use the sensor track to create a recording using the actions you want from the CAB2.  Remember the sensor track will only output Legacy 9 bit commands on it's pre-assigned actions.  To trigger TMCC commands it must be a recording created with the Cab 2/Sensor Track record playback function.

True, but the bottom line is you accomplish your goal of triggering the TMCC locomotive actions, right?

My point being is it's a little bit more to it than adding a sensor car and running it over the sensor track. 

Agree 100% Marty, but it's a whole lot easier than transplanting the Legacy electronics to a K-Line locomotive!  

I know that such a transplant can be done, but having done many similar conversions, including a couple of Legacy transplants, I can say that it's a bit complex.  One misstep and you have an expensive smoking component.  Also, the lack of decent information on much of the wiring always makes the job more interesting.

Agreed. But based on what the OP stated after your suggestion, which I completely agree with, I felt it was needed to point out the limitations of the sensor car when used with TMCC. 

Why is the transplant so hard?  Plus with a legacy back EMF you can eliminate motor tach issue.  Not as hard as presented.  G

Responding to Marty's post yesterday re: details of how a recording is needed for TMCC engine to respond to SensorCar passing over S-Track.  So if I get it, Marty and others here, I will follow directions to make a recording associated with the passage over "Sensor Track 1" of "Sensor Car 1", for instance, with a grade crossing horn/whistle sequence.  After that, whenever that SensorCar (or its guts and IR transmitter in a loco) passes over that S-track, the TMCC base will send horn/whistle signal in the --*- pattern to whatever TMCC engine is active on the track (or lead engine in a lashup).  Or does there need to be that specific engine on the track at the time of the recording, so the recording is specific to "Engine 1" with S-car 1 passing over S-track 1?  I think I don't totally get it, yet.

Have looked online for SensorCar instruction pdf, but haven't found it. Not yet published by Lionel? If any of you can point me to it, or clarify what I don't yet "get" about how this will or won't work for TMCC engines, would appreciate!

Personal opinion, sell the K-Line and get a second set of Lionel. Will, first see how much said engines go for on the large online auction website. K-Line 21" CNW bilevel cars are insanely priced. And are beautiful, the club that SanteFeJim was in, someone had a set, wowser.

cnwdon posted:

Responding to Marty's post yesterday re: details of how a recording is needed for TMCC engine to respond to SensorCar passing over S-Track.  So if I get it, Marty and others here, I will follow directions to make a recording associated with the passage over "Sensor Track 1" of "Sensor Car 1", for instance, with a grade crossing horn/whistle sequence.  After that, whenever that SensorCar (or its guts and IR transmitter in a loco) passes over that S-track, the TMCC base will send horn/whistle signal in the --*- pattern to whatever TMCC engine is active on the track (or lead engine in a lashup).  Or does there need to be that specific engine on the track at the time of the recording, so the recording is specific to "Engine 1" with S-car 1 passing over S-track 1?  I think I don't totally get it, yet.

It's been about 15 months since we demo'd the sensor car so this is from memory but when I used the sensor car with a TMCC engine, I had to create a recording.  The sensor track recorded the input from the CAB2 via the base.  I did horn, bell, etc.  Anything that can be input from the CAB 2 will record and playback.

The recording is specific to the sensor track but I believe based on how the sensor track works can be assigned to that 1 ID assigned to the sensor car or All IDs based on page 25 of the ST manual.  I'm going to ask Rudy (Railsounds) to jump on this thread.  He would be a definitive answer.

I'm guessing either Jon Z. or Rudy would be able to answer more fully the capabilities of the Sensor Car electronics.  I'm not sure I see a reason to limit the sensor car functionality to only work with programming.

I wonder if they could supply a "beta" copy of the User's Manual?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm guessing either Jon Z. or Rudy would be able to answer more fully the capabilities of the Sensor Car electronics.  I'm not sure I see a reason to limit the sensor car functionality to only work with programming.

I wonder if they could supply a "beta" copy of the User's Manual?

Making a recording is for TMCC locomotives only as the Sensor Track only puts out Legacy commands.  When testing I asked if this was the case and Jon and Rudy confirmed it.  A sensor car used with an earlier non-sensor Legacy engine will preform as one would expect with sensor equipped Legacy engine.

Another thing to consider about doing a transplant is all the info that the Legacy boards would transmit out over the IR roadname/ roadnumber/ etc would be incorrect for the transplanted engine.  Not sure if that matters.  The sensor car takes on the personality of the engine it is paired with so it will report the correct road number and name.

K line had the best paint job for E8s Rock Island, would have been nice. 

GGG posted:

Why is the transplant so hard?  Plus with a legacy back EMF you can eliminate motor tach issue.  Not as hard as presented.  G

If you go this route you should buy two back emf boards, one for each engine. I assume this is a pair of E8s. K-Line used one DCDR to drive 4 motors. Not a good idea for Cruise Ms as they are only rated for 6 amps. I am doing this to a TMCC E8 pair and you will also need a new tether to accommodate the extra wires. Doable but not simple.

Pete

As Marty indicated, the SensorCar is designed to work with TMCC engines. With a SensorCar, your TMCC train rolls over SensorTrack which can then can trigger user-created custom recordings. Up to two recordings can be stored, one for each direction of travel. Note that the SensorCar/TMCC Locomotive will not respond to the SensorTrack's Preset Action Commands, because these transmit LEGACY command messages. But if you make a SensorTrack custom user recording using  TMCC commands, it will play back those TMCC commands as recorded and control your TMCC locomotive.

These comments apply generally to use of SensorCar with a TMCC engine and are not in any way specific or limited to the question of transplanting control electronics.

cnwdon posted:

Or does there need to be that specific engine on the track at the time of the recording, so the recording is specific to "Engine 1" with S-car 1 passing over S-track 1?  I think I don't totally get it, yet.

You can create a SensorTrack custom user recording that ONLY works with the locomotive you used to create the recording, OR you can create a custom user recording that works with ANY passing locomotive.

You don't need the SensorCar manual (not yet published)--these are topics covered in the SensorTrack manual which is available here: https://www.lionelsupport.com/...50LCSSensorTrack.pdf

I've tried the CC-M with four motors several times.  It didn't work at all for one installation, and the other one it "kinda'" worked, but didn't have very good cruise performance.  I agree with Pete, you'll need another motor driver.  You can go with two and pipe the extra signals over.  Another avenue is just add an R2LC on a small steamer motherboard and the CC-M.  Or, just install a full Cruise Commander in the trailing unit, that's what I did.

So I take it that Marty's comment about using it with an early Legacy locomotive is correct, I'd get the full functionality as it would recognize the Legacy commands?

BTW, how many recordings can the sensor track store?  Can it store multiple recordings, each targeted for a specific TMCC locomotive ID?

WB47,      I agree... use my R.I. E8s to pull the nice 18" Golden State consist I have, along with other mixed consists.  I like the RS in them also, have thought of an upgrade, but see no reason to do so on the sounds.  Perhaps, down the line, upgrade with ERR Cruise.  But, for now, busy with MTH upgrades with ERR, along with the K Line scale Hudson 5344 upgrade to TMCC, fine tuning/RS and smoke unit, corrections to CCII Niagara.  Then, also,.......................

Jesse    TCA  12-68275

gunrunnerjohn posted:

So I take it that Marty's comment about using it with an early Legacy locomotive is correct, I'd get the full functionality as it would recognize the Legacy commands?

I'm not sure which comment you are referring to, but if the "early Legacy Locomotive" has an I/R transmitter, it will trigger the SensorTrack when passing over it.

BTW, how many recordings can the sensor track store?  Can it store multiple recordings, each targeted for a specific TMCC locomotive ID?

Two custom user recordings can be stored in each SensorTrack, one for each direction of travel. 

Railsounds posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

So I take it that Marty's comment about using it with an early Legacy locomotive is correct, I'd get the full functionality as it would recognize the Legacy commands?

I'm not sure which comment you are referring to, but if the "early Legacy Locomotive" has an I/R transmitter, it will trigger the SensorTrack when passing over it.

 

Rudy

I made the comment that early Legacy locomotives without an IR sensor, when paired with the sensor car, will respond to the pre-assigned actions of the sensor track in the same manor as a Legacy engine with an IR sensor because it was responding to the ST's Legacy commands.

"Railsounds", thanks for the SensorTrack pdf.  It has enough to let me know I want to order one or more and use, along with REA and freight SensorCars.

Thanks Rudy, GRJ, Marty, GGG, for contributing to the thread on SensorCar use as well as how to approach a transplant if I chose to.  Now that I understand more about the Sensor system to use with TMCC locos, I'll pass on any transplants for now!