I'm in the process of some modifications to a MPC Geep alco style motor. I'm looking for a parts breakdown on the postwar lionel 200 series alco motor. Does anyone have a service reference and drawing for these motors?
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Thank you- although, the diagram is a help. It doesn't list the part number for the pi onion Gear studs that the Gera rides on. I understand that 2 differnt types were used.
You might be looking for the truck frame. Try THIS.
Do not think the pinion gear studs are a separately replaceable item; more than likely they are part of the truck frame assembly. No part numbers are given for either the postwar or modern era pinion gear studs.
Larry
Rob,
That at is the MPC version. It has plastic gear studs for the idler gears. Part of the plastic insert in the swedged frame.
i think you had once mentioned the gear shafts would wear on some of the old Alcoa.
The studs were changed from aluminum to sintered iron.
Originally Posted by shawn:
It may be the worm gear issue that cause some of these issues.. I know there are more complaints with the specific motor in the picture above. I mean how much noisier with all metal gears? Is there anyone that has done one with all metal gears.
Lionel/Lionel Toy Corporation 1955-1969 used sintered iron. The metal gears can be quite noisy in comparison, and will not wear too well on the steel MPC motor frame(if lubed w/ synthetic grease they would do OK).
Originally Posted by shawn:
The gear studs are metal for the pinion gears because the engine doesn't have magnatraction? So, the magnatraction engines must have all brass gears if some from of metal is to be used? It is not a problem using a steel gear for my application because there is no magnatraction?
Some early '48-'50 MagneTraction switchers with cast trucks had brass pinions.
The studs on MPC are steel the nylon/Delrin/plastic material of the captive lower bearing / roller-pickup support . MagneTraction motor frames were aluminum stampings, so the studs were aluminum too, starting with the 600 series motors in 1955, and all the pinions and drive gears were sintered iron to match the wear characteristics of the geared wheels. Steel stampings were used in non-MagneTraction 600 & 200 series diesels from 1955 to 1969. The wear of the iron gears on the aluminum frames/studs is a continuing problem on MagneTraction switchers, Alcos, and center cabs.
Actually, the MPC GP gear studs are plastic. They are part of the plastic roller Picup insert. I assume the holes in the "STEEL" mpc frame correspond to the holes in one of the old Alco frames.
I'm looking to cut away the plastic in certain areas of the MPC roller housing. Then insert bronze bearings in the frame. In places the roller housing is used for this purpose.
Then add 2 metal/sintered studs for the pinions. This would make the motor more reliable and repairable. As the plastic roller frame is not available.
Just curious: are the plastic bearings or plastic gear studs worn?
I ask because the worn trucks that I've seen have the metal bearings worn out, while the plastic axle bearings showed little to no wear.
The MPC trucks' gear axles are the same nylon/Delrin/plastic material as the plastic roller/pickup & bearing support, of which they are part. I made the correction above.
The plastic roller/pickup & bearing support is captive in the side plates at the time of manufacture. This was an improvement over the cheapened '55-'69 era design and fixes the issues with the loose lower bearing support that plagues most of the aluminum frame diesels.
Originally Posted by shawn:
Rob, ...i think you had once mentioned the gear shafts would wear on some of the old Alcoa.
The studs were changed from aluminum to sintered iron.
Aluminum on MT diesels, steel on non-MT.
We are talking the alco type motor right? Is there a reference part # for the studs.
shawn
There is no part number. The studs are part of the "motor truck and field" assembly.
For MPC, the studs are part of the captive plastic insert("roller frame") included in assembly 8021-106 "Motor Truck - Less Armature and Brushplate".
Which gets us to- no source for the studs?
As far as I know, the studs have never been available.
C W Burfle posted:Just curious: are the plastic bearings or plastic gear studs worn?
I ask because the worn trucks that I've seen have the metal bearings worn out, while the plastic axle bearings showed little to no wear.
Man, I love reading the old threads - what goes around usually comes around again! I am replacing a broken worm gear in my (second) 8351 and am facing the same issues others have in the past. But disassembly was pretty easy so far. The staking on the side frame (the part still assembled) is solid, so I'm optimistic that the reassembly will be nice and square.
CW, your comments struck home as I looked at the plastic pinion axles and couldn't believe how little they had worn, not to mention plastic bearing surfaces for the worm gear shaft! Apparently they knew what they were doing.
BTW, I intend to run both windings on this dual winding motor by just reversing one of them and then wire it in series with the other. I may try running them in parallel also. I will then add an e-unit to this manual-direction-switch engine. I know most folks just use one winding as Lionel intended, but I just have to see what happens! So if you double the windings on a given motor, I wonder how much increase in magnetic "strength" that will provide?
So if you double the windings on a given motor, I wonder how much increase in magnetic "strength" that will provide?
Just recently there was a discussion on using both fields on a double wound Alco motor truck. Please share your findings with us.
I've now rebuilt several of these mpc style motor trucks. Th worm gear was changed to "metal" I also changed the drive gear to Metal. I put a small nylon space behind this gear.. The insert is plastic and not readily available.
Here would be the ideal rebuild.
1) Take apart the motor/ separate out all swedged pieces.
2) The plastic insert would now be removable.
3) Drill out the pinion studs in the plastic insert..large hole.
4) insert sintered iron or other pinion stud in the metal frame.
5) replace,worm gear and others with your choice of material
Rob, helped me with this a ways back. I tried to ordered a couple of drive studs...
But, the hole in the metal plate is larger. I'm still looking for one that will work.
simply it would make the motor bullet proof
http://home.earthlink.net/~dlpearce74/
Follow this link....it shows a rebuild of this truck..
I would avoid drilling the side trucks...take your time and file a bit. They will be reusable. The screw idea did not really work out for me..
