Lionel 2257 Caboose Question

I am pretty sure that one is not original. Brown bodies do exist but a 2257 would have a single coil coupler. This one has post 1952 bar end trucks and frame, likely taken off a 6457.

Pete

The caboose looks to be more red then brown and would make it the more expensive version listed. However from the photos you posted your caboose needs some wheel cleaning as rust is on a few of your wheels, also won't hurt to lube the wheels and couplers. You have a light installed inside that should work if not you need to replace it.

Lee Fritz

Agree with Norton, chassis is from a 6457.

Couple things.  Lee, I understand about the clean up and maintenance. I just got this box of cabooses out of my storage area after several decades and was just sorting them by number and have yet to clean and service any of them.  Pete and Chuck, I thought of that too but when comparing them, I have 3 variations of the 6457, the rivets on the trucks are different.  Al of the 6457 rivets are dimpled whereas this one has convex rounded rivet heads.  It is identical to the 6357 that was produced in 1948 with the exception of the second coupler.  I'm going to add another photo comparing colors.  On the left is a Tuscan, on the right and orange/brown, and on the bottom a brown caboose. you will notice that this one is different than all of them.  Still puzzled.

I would appreciate more comments.

Bum

Bum,

My first train set came with a 2257 in 1947 but it was the common red version without a smokestack or ladders.  The tuscan version of the 2257 is relatively uncommmon and is pictured on page 110 of Doyle’s first post-war guide book.  Produced in 1947 only,  a 2257 definitely should have staple-end trucks and coil couplers, except in this case only one coupler.  But it did not come with a light or toolboxes attached to the underframe.  As others have posted the toolboxes and light mean yours has a 6457 chassis and the bar-end trucks means it’s from a 1952 version of a 6457.  So a previous owner had a 2257 that they upgraded with a 6457 chassis to get the light, tool boxes and 2 of the later version magnetic couplers.   

HTH,

Bill

Bill.  I'm not nit picking here, I do want to get to the bottom of this but ff that is the case, how would you explain the difference in the rivets.  I checked all of my 6457's, even my parts cars and they all have the dimple.  If anyone has a 6457 with all rounded rivets on the trucks, please let me know as that would answer the question.

Bum

More discrepancies.  On the attached photo, look between the front and rear wheels of the bottom of the photo trucks, you will see that the 2257 on the left and the 6357 in the center have holes drilled/punched, but the 6457 on the right, along with my other 6457's do not have the holes.  There is also a difference in the type of clip used to hold these parts together but they are too small to show on the photos.  This photo also shows the difference in the rivet heads very well.  Any comments on these differences?

Bum

Someone could have taken a complete 6457 frame with lights and installed it on the 2257 body or they could have taken any number of frames and added the 6457 detail like battery boxes and windows. I have done that on a few SP type cabeese including 6257s and 6357s.

What you have is a collection of parts. 

Pete

Bum:

I believe that we have a slight communication problem.  What you are calling a truck attached with a “dimpled” rivet is what I was calling a “Staple-end” truck which is the term collector reference books use and what you are calling a “convex rounded” rivet truck is what is called a “Bar-end truck”. 

Lionel used staple-end trucks from 1946 through 1951 on 4-wheel truck freight cars.  Then in 1952 Lionel changed to bar-end trucks on its 4-wheel trucks used on freight cars.  The 2257 caboose came out in 1947 with staple-end trucks.  When the 6457 came out in 1949 it had staple-end trucks as did the 1950 and 1951 versions.  But in 1952 Lionel was using bar-end trucks so the 1952 version had bar-end trucks.  So a 6457 can correctly have either staple-end trucks or bar-end trucks.  I have three different variations of the 6457’s and two have staple-end trucks and one has bar-end trucks.  If you need a photo let me know. 

But the 2257 caboose was only produced in 1947 and therefore it only came with staple-end trucks so as Norton and Chuck agreed your 2257 has been modified with a 6457 chassis and because of the bar-end trucks it’s from a 1952 version of the 6457.

Regarding your last set of photos, of my three 6457’s, the two with staple-end trucks do not have those holes between the wheels and my 6457 with bar-end trucks does have those holes, so I do have them both ways. 

Hope that clears up any confusion,

Bill

Bill.  that pretty much answers all of my questions.  If I would have had a 6357 with the holes I would have been satisfied.  Thanks for confirming what was previously stated.  If possible, please post a photo, or e-mail it to me so I can file it with all of these.  I think I'll try to find another 2257 in my parts boxes and put this back the way it was made.  Also, excuse my ignorance on some of the terminology.

Thanks again,

Bum

Bum:

You are welcome and putting your 2257 back into its original configuration is a good idea which would GREATLY increase its value! 

As you requested, here’s some photos of my 6457’s.  The first photo shows two 6457’s.  The one on the top has staple-end trucks (1949-51 version) and the one on the bottom has bar-end trucks (1952 version).  The 2^nd and 3^rd photos are close-ups of the trucks with the bar-end first.  Not shown is my third 6457 which is the same as the top one except it has a black stack. 

And I learned something from you also which was that some post-war trucks have those holes between the axles and some don’t.  I guess I never noticed it before.  I spot-checked about 20 of my post-war cars that were within reaching distance and every one with bar-end trucks has those holes and every one with staple-end trucks does not have those holes.  

I couldn’t find any mention in the service manual why they changed from staple-end trucks to bar-end trucks or why they have holes in the bar-end trucks.  It seems like it would cost more to drill the holes.  The early pages in the manual show the staple-end truck without holes and the later pages show the bar-end truck with the holes clearly evident.  Plus the bar-end basic truck has the same part number as the staple-end truck (PT-1).

Anybody know why they changed and what the holes are for?

Bill

If you look at the last photo Bum posted, the 'convex rounded' and 'dimpled' rivets are referring to the rivets used to hold the armature spring in place in the truck base plate, not a reference to bar end or staple end trucks. Look through the hole in the armature base to see the different rivet heads.

Larry

Bill, can you photo the underside of the one with the bar-end trucks that would show the rivets as explained by Larry?

Thanks

Bum

quote:

If you look at the last photo Bum posted, the 'convex rounded' and 'dimpled' rivets are referring to the rivets used to hold the armature spring in place in the truck base plate, not a reference to bar end or staple end trucks. Look through the hole in the armature base to see the different rivet heads.

The "convex rounded" end showing on the bottom of the coupler armature (part that moves) is the semi-tubular rivet head.

The "dimpled" end is the tail end of the semi-tubular rivet, with a rolled clinch.

So there must have been a change to the assembly method for the coupler component.

Some of the Postwar Lionel reference books have information about this detail.

My guess has far as the holes goes, they were included in the stamping process of the truck frame for positioning the truck in a jig used for crimping the sideframes in place. 

Well its obviously been modified. The 2257 always came with staple end coil couplers not magnetic bar end trucks as shown so the caboose has been opened. It was never illuminated and never had the tool box detail or ladders on the ends. It also never came with a plastic window insert. The brown with stack version is common as is the red color without the stack. The rare version would be the red with red painted stack.

You have a common modified 2257 in brown.

Gandy

The common red ones are selling between $7.00 and $14.00 and the brown ones are selling between $100.00 and $200.00 so I don't think they are quite as common.  It would be in my best interest to buy a $10.00 red one and put it back the way it was.

Thanks 

Bum

Gandy:

The red 2257 did not have ladders but the brown 2257 pictured in the Doyle book has ladders.  I wonder if it is legitimate?

Bill

Good that you made out great on the car. There are suckers out there for sure. I just don't seem to cross paths with them!

gandy

There were 9 of them bidding on it, at least one of them had to know it's value.  I have posted a lot of my items for sale here on the forum at lower prices than the other sites, but the Bay and Craig's list always seems to bring the high prices even after eBay and PayPal commissions  Hopefully I will have liquidated my entire collection by spring 2015 and I won't have to put up with those buyers that I welcome, that you call suckers, any longer.

Bum

A brown 2257 is a scarce and desirable piece, especially if all the steps and smoke stack are present.

Remember that 2357's are normally brown and 2257's are normally red. Cabooses that are the reverse of that are scarce.

I can guarantee that the bidders recognized what the piece is, and proceeded accordingly. I'm not sure why you believe "suckers" were involved.

TRW

Your changing your story now.  You stated that the brown with a stack is as common as the red without a stack.  Now your implying that it is not so common but in reality is harder to find.  I guess the buyers agreed with your latter remarks and knew that this shell was harder to find.  Check the Bay now and see how many brown with the stack are for sale in comparison with the red ones.  You shouldn't judge people publicly by calling someone you know nothing about a sucker.  These bidders might have the proper chassis to put the shell on and may in fact make a nice profit on the completed unit.  One last thing, the color was not brown, it was between brown and tuscan, clearly different than any of the Lionel brown cabooses that I have, and I have a lot.

Bum

What part was modified? It MAY have been on a wrong chassis, but the value is in the brown 2257 body with the brown stack. A chassis can easily be changed to make it more "correct," even though I've not found a lot of consistency in the unusally-numbered and colored SP cabooses to say that particular chassis was definitely "wrong."

TRW

Many of those postwar cabooses are such commonplace items and I find it hard to understand why people place significant monetary values on arcane little differences.

Once I picked up a pretty good postwar Lionel olive drab caboose as a 'bonus' item in a box of junk. In theory it is potentially somewhat rare and valuable but that doesn't mean much to me when it doesn't even have handrails like some of the other stripped-down lackluster Lionel items of the 1960's. I put a different frame under it, with handrails, and added a Lionel plastic window insert to make it a better model. In theory I 'damaged' an original item, but I customized it to suit myself. And that is what a previous owner apparently did with an otherwise ordinary 2257 caboose. My two cents worth.