Lionel announces limited edition York boxcar.

RadioRon posted:

Hey Jerry... Obviously 10 cars would have been gone.  How would that have been just the right number?   What kind of analogy is that? 

Well if someone can make an absurd comment like "50 was the right number since they sold out" than 10 is also a valid argument for a right number since it would also have sold out (that is the point I was making). I've had Boy Scout bake sales that sold out after the first Mass at church, that wasn't the right amount it means we under estimated sales potential. But we weren't "in the business" as it were like Lionel is, they should have done better research or came up with a better plan to distribute them instead of the mad dash they saw at the opening. 50 cars for a multi-day event from an icon like Lionel that attracts several thousand is an extremely low and absurd number. If they wanted a rare car then make 5 of them and have people fill out a ticket to be in a drawing for one of them.

"Lionel is a business, not a charity. "

Thank you Capt. Obvious, I was wondering why the IRS kept disallowing my train purchases. Never said it was a charity, but if being a business means continually having Quality Control issues, missing projected delivery dates, cancelling products after announcing them, over/under estimating production volumes then yeah you're right, they are a business.

Jerry

Gpritch posted:

C W Burfle posted:

When released, 8470 Gold Chessie Geep could be purchased for $25 in my area. It initially shot up to $150. Today they can be had for around $75. All these prices are for mint pieces with nice, clean boxes.

I guess the folks who did pay $25 would make some money selling theirs if they kept it mint.
Not so much for the people who paid $150.

I finally got one years later for somewhere around $60-$75.

Actually, Harry Henning has two on his table today at York for $50 each . . .

Were they mint, as in brand new, never run or displayed, with nice, clean, crisp boxes?

RonH posted:

Since these were sold right away, does anybody know the price they were sold for?

They were being sold for $47 each.

No. I did not buy one nor was I looking to buy one. It happened to come up at the dinner Thursday night.  Reports were nos. 51 and 52 in line were ok on missing out but no. 53 was ticked.

-Greg

I was on the Lionel line and got one.  And yes I consider it a souvenir not a collectible.  What I thought most interesting about the whole experience was that on the front of the line were several Orange Hall vendors.  Seems a little unfair to me to folks who had to wait outside.    But insiders (literally in this case!) will always have preference in this world. 

As I said earlier...

Five pages and counting.

I prayed to the all knowing Great Cowan to rain fire and brimstone down upon this thread and remove it from there sacred pages.

However in his infinite wisdom the great Cowan does not involve himself with the senseless debate found in this thread.

Richard

Chris Lord posted:

I was on the Lionel line and got one.  And yes I consider it a souvenir not a collectible.  What I thought most interesting about the whole experience was that on the front of the line were several Orange Hall vendors.  Seems a little unfair to me to folks who had to wait outside.    But insiders (literally in this case!) will always have preference in this world. 

That's disheartening. 

Grampstrains posted:

Richard Gonzales posted:

I prayed to the all knowing Great Cowan to rain fire and brimstone down upon this thread and remove it from there sacred pages.

However in his infinite wisdom the great Cowan does not involve himself with the senseless debate found in this thread.

 

Richard

 

 

"Senseless" is the perfect description.

You both can just stop clicking on the thread you know, maybe just don't read it if it is that senseless to you?

This topic that others are discussing is for some reason not OK with you so you feel it should be deleted.  How nice of you.

Price with taxes was $50.00. Took about 20 minutes to get mine. I was maybe the 20th person on line.

Very Interesting, a lot of people, young and old, in line, to buy a 1 of 50 Special Lionel York Only Cars?? When they could be Looking at one of the Most Beautiful Brass Hybrid Steam Locomotives Lionel is Offering at this particular 2017 April York Meet!!! This is Unbelievable, "Say it isn't So", I simply just don't Understand?? It just doesn't make Cents?. Just Kidding, but, As you can see, There's something for Everyone....a simple car, or a Super Nice Locomotive....WOW!!! Hope everyone had fun at York, I sure did....

Larry,

I am glad to see you made it to York. What was it like to have the dealer halls open to the public for part of the show?

We all have our niche in this hobby, but when at York I have my route mapped out for hitting all the halls, but I don'ts think I would waste time standing in line for a commemorative box car that no one will remember, or care about a couple of years from now.

Our Casey Jones Chapter TCA train will be on June 3rd. I hope you can make it down to our show.

Talk to you soon,

Richard 

Chris Lord posted:

I was on the Lionel line and got one.  And yes I consider it a souvenir not a collectible.  What I thought most interesting about the whole experience was that on the front of the line were several Orange Hall vendors.  Seems a little unfair to me to folks who had to wait outside.    But insiders (literally in this case!) will always have preference in this world. 

One of the reasons I no longer want to be a TCA member. I did a show many years  ago, members only sort of show. Show rules were tables were to remain covered until 9:00 AM, when the show opened to all TCA members. Table owners were wondering around way before 9:00AM buying and selling amongst themselves. I could understand this practice if it was open to the public, but to do this to fellow TCA members.

Steve

One of the reasons I no longer want to be a TCA member. I did a show many years  ago, members only sort of show. Show rules were tables were to remain covered until 9:00 AM, when the show opened to all TCA members. Table owners were wondering around way before 9:00AM buying and selling amongst themselves. I could understand this practice if it was open to the public, but to do this to fellow TCA members.

I know people who get train show tables just to get in early and check out the other tables.
As for it happening at a closed TCA show, it's still table holders versus non-table holders.

One more thought: getting the jump on the masses is what the York Bandit meets are all about too.

The only TCA shows with which I have personal experience are York and NETCA shows. For many years both shows had a "shotgun start" or a "closed box" rule. This meant that table holders could put their unopened boxes at their table before the show opened, but they could not open them. The table holders then had to leave the hall. The show could not open until the hall(s) were clear. The table holders reentered the hall with the buyers, and unpacked as the buyers streamed in. This sounds chaotic. I guess it was, but it was also fun. One of my train buddies laments the change. I wouldn't mind if they went back to the old way.

For me its not a reason to leave the TCA. It a fact of collecting life.

I guess Lionel could have asked their fellow dealers not to line up.

I Cannot believe it! I posted my I love York box car for sale and it was gone in 20 minutes!!!

I should have held out for more...  oh well...

You can say what you want... It was a winner!

Chris Lord posted:

What I thought most interesting about the whole experience was that on the front of the line were several Orange Hall vendors.  Seems a little unfair to me to folks who had to wait outside.    But insiders (literally in this case!) will always have preference in this world. 

A little unfair... how about a LOT unfair?  The Lionel people should have known better than to sell to them.  Lionel's York boxcar venture was a debacle all the way around.  Lionel should just skip the idea of ever trying this again at future Yorks.

RadioRon posted:

Chris Lord posted:

What I thought most interesting about the whole experience was that on the front of the line were several Orange Hall vendors.  Seems a little unfair to me to folks who had to wait outside.    But insiders (literally in this case!) will always have preference in this world. 

A little unfair... how about a LOT unfair?  The Lionel people should have known better than to sell to them.  Lionel's York boxcar venture was a debacle all the way around.  Lionel should just skip the idea of ever trying this again at future Yorks.

I agree on the dealers inside.  I didn't see  whole bunch of them, but there were a few.  At least one I saw is a serious collector since he writes a column on the subject .  Some of the other dealers until I see proven otherwise I will hold out optimism and hope they were obtaining one to satisfy a request from a good existing customer and not just buying it to drop it on a table for a huge markup for whoever wanted to pay it.  (I had my own table, so I didn't get to roam the meet enough to see if this was happening or not.  The example in a previous post is the first resale tale I've heard of, but haven't been paying attention much this last week)

Here's a general question. 

While not York/TCA related, a similar situation happened with the original Macy's Thanksgiving Parade boxcar offered in 2006. (I'm sure there were a lot more than 50 of those, but there was a lack of them at the time and it was a PITA to trek to Macy's all over the place to try to find them - many people were shut out and not happy about it at that time).

Later on Lionel offered the same paint scheme as a general catalog item but it was in the next year.  The date on the door of the boxcar (IIRC, though it might be the "Built by Lionel" date too, I forget) was really the only way to tell them apart (same catalog number).

So the question is : If Lionel were to make an offer to pre-order a car that is identical, but is missing the "1 of 50" on the boxcar doors, do you think those who missed out would be interested in ordering one?  The original 50 would still be relatively unique, thereby not totally diluting the scarcity for those collectors who were able to invest the time and effort to get in line early to get a car (though I can see some being upset - I know if there are speculators sitting on the cars, they would be totally upset). 

Those who missed due to circumstances beyond their control could get something with identical graphics, less the "1 in 50" markings (catalog number should probably be different, though).

Would anyone actually want one?  Or is the fact that it would be technically a different item dilute the desire?

-Dave

Would anyone actually want one?  Or is the fact that it would be technically a different item dilute the desire?

Here is my thoughts:

I think there would be people who would buy the second car. But the people who wanted the original car due to it's limited production would not. And some of the people who were able to purchase the limited edition car would be angry that Lionel produced a car that was so similar.

Finally, I think releasing such a close replica of a severely limited edition car would hurt Lionel's credibility.

I guess I am saying that Lionel cannot win.

It's ALIVE!!!

EGORE!!!!  LOOK!!! IT'S ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!!

Richard

Good analogy with the Macy's boxcar.  I recall those days well.  

But you'd think people would learn from that!  Those cars can't be given away today... perhaps worth $20 or so at most.    So why do people continue to get on these silly merry-go-rounds???  

Yes, we've all done it at one time or another.  But enough of us have shared our experiences to the point that nobody should want to be played like a fiddle anymore.

And as far as credibility is concerned... this boxcar was just small potatoes for Lionel.  But the decision to only produce 50 was just plain stupid:  think about it -- they advertise this to the general public, yet the silly thing is gone within 15 minutes of the members-only day!!!    So this just exemplifies the ongoing breakdown of good decision-making on Lionel's part recently.  Frankly speaking, the execs already have much bigger credibility problems.  Enough said.

David

I disagree... you have to remember what the release of this car was for... to generate excitement, draw a crowd, and lots of controversy... it did exactly that...

J Daddy posted:

I disagree... you have to remember what the release of this car was for... to generate excitement, draw a crowd, and lots of controversy... it did exactly that...

How True.

J Daddy posted:

I disagree... you have to remember what the release of this car was for... to generate excitement, draw a crowd, and lots of controversy... it did exactly that...

...

Well, one out of three... MAYBE... 

Generate excitement?  Zip, zilch, nadda.  At least not for folks who've been on this merry-go-round before or watched it happen before ad-nauseum.

Draw a crowd?  Hardly.  Perhaps a small line of folks who had hopes of grabbing one of these boxcars.  Any additional members of "the crowd" beyond #50-in-line had the consolation of seeing Lionel's dismal York booth first-hand early on Thursday.   So they had two things to shake their heads about in disappointment.

Lots of controversy?  Ding... ding... ding.... ding!!!   We'll give them that one.  

Perhaps the Jo Dee Messina song I heard on the radio the other day says it best... "My Give a D*a*m*n's Busted". 

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

J Daddy posted:

I disagree... you have to remember what the release of this car was for... to generate excitement, draw a crowd, and lots of controversy... it did exactly that...

...

Well, one out of three... MAYBE... 

Generate excitement?  Zip, zilch, nadda.  At least not for folks who've been on this merry-go-round before or watched it happen before ad-nauseum.

Draw a crowd?  Hardly.  Perhaps a small line of folks who had hopes of grabbing one of these boxcars.  Any additional members of "the crowd" beyond #50-in-line had the consolation of seeing Lionel's dismal York booth first-hand early on Thursday.   So they had two things to shake their heads about in disappointment.

Lots of controversy?  Ding... ding... ding.... ding!!!   We'll give them that one.  

 

Perhaps the Jo Dee Messina song I heard on the radio the other says it best... "My Give a D*a*m*n's Busted". 

David

Well you had to have been there to see it.... purely amazing...

1) People actually waited in line at the Lionel entrance, and ran to get in line, and cleaned the shelves off as they waited in line. People talked about getting a car for weeks before the show. It was like trying to find the golden ticket for a life supply of chocolate! Well almost...

2) A crowd it did draw! For the first hour of the show Lionel's booth was packed.  The racks were stripped of other collector cars as well. 

J Daddy, I don't doubt what you're saying about the pre-show hype.  Look at this thread for example... now on Page 5. 

But I casually strolled by Lionel's booth around 12:20pm Thursday... after first visiting Nicholas Smith Trains, MTH, and Charlie Ro.  Wasn't interested in the Lionel York boxcar, but I was a bit surprised to see they were already gone.  I guess I'm just not into that sort of thing anymore.  There were PLENTY of 115th Anniversary boxcars remaining on the shelves even later on Thursday afternoon.  So not everything was flying off the shelves. 

For those who DID get this much-talked-about boxcar, I hope it provides them much enjoyment NOW... because in 5 or 10 years, it'll very likely be worth $20 at most on the secondary market -- or perhaps a great conversation piece. 

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade... really.  I've walked this walk before with Lionel's 5712 "rare" woodside reefer... even went into NYC to visit Madison Hardware in the 1980's to get one.  They were $100 at the time.  Today, I can't give it away... but I keep it more for nostalgic reasons to remind me how much these items are just "moment in time" collectibles so I don't get played again.

David

Just because you didn't want one or it did nothing for you, obviously some folks wanted the car and for them did generate excitement.  What is the term Bear uses, Heck it's a big enough tent for all of us.  For me personally it wasn't my cup of tea. It was fun watching the horde. 

MartyE posted:

Just because you didn't want one or it did nothing for you, obviously some folks wanted the car and for them did generate excitement.  What is the term Bear uses, Heck it's a big enough tent for all of us.  For me personally it wasn't my cup of tea. It was fun watching the horde. 

I agree complete Marty.   I have one and for ME it was a lot of fun looking forward to getting it.  I can't believe how much time some people have spent knocking this whole episode.  Move on folks, nothing to see (or complain about) here!

"There were PLENTY of 115th Anniversary boxcars remaining on the shelves even later on Thursday afternoon.  So not everything was flying off the shelves."

Yes -the guy behind me had them all in his arms and his colleague, then they realized their were a lot of these on the market, and the price was 100 dollars each.  Back on the rack they went. The other cars were priced at 60... not sure what they were but they were gone, gone... yes by 12:20 the honey hole was dried up, so it was off to the next bargain... It was all a blur after that... but very funny to watch... that is... basic human nature.

Here's what Lionel should have done:

Announce in advance the 50 (or whatever number) special run boxcars, along with "rules" detailing this process:

When doors open at noon Thursday, come to the Lionel booth and be given a two-part numbered ticket (as used at basket raffles, etc). You keep one part and the second part goes in a big fishbowl (or some such). Only ONE ticket per person.

At 3 p.m. (or whatever time selected), a Lionel rep. will reach in and, one at a time, draw 50 (or whatever) winners, who must have the second part of their ticket.

Winners must be present to claim their car. If not present when numbers is called, another number is drawn.

Simple and effective process!

Allan Miller posted:

Here's what Lionel should have done:

Announce in advance the 50 (or whatever number) special run boxcars, along with "rules" detailing this process:

When doors open at noon Thursday, come to the Lionel booth and be given a two-part numbered ticket (as used at basket raffles, etc). You keep one part and the second part goes in a big fishbowl (or some such).

At 3 p.m. (or whatever time selected), a Lionel rep. will reach in and, one at a time, draw 50 (or whatever) winners, who must have the second part of their ticket.

Winners must be present to claim their car. If not present when numbers is called, another number is drawn.

Simple and effective process!

You are a very wise man... and seasoned veteran in this business.  Bravo!!!

David

Allan Miller posted:

Here's what Lionel should have done:

Announce in advance the 50 (or whatever number) special run boxcars, along with "rules" detailing this process:

When doors open at noon Thursday, come to the Lionel booth and be given a two-part numbered ticket (as used at basket raffles, etc). You keep one part and the second part goes in a big fishbowl (or some such).

At 3 p.m. (or whatever time selected), a Lionel rep. will reach in and, one at a time, draw 50 (or whatever) winners, who must have the second part of their ticket.

Winners must be present to claim their car. If not present when numbers is called, another number is drawn.

Simple and effective process!

Never would have worked...

One - you would never be guaranteed a car... so nobody is going to wait in line for a prayer of getting one.

Second - You cannot understand the loud speaker in the other halls or the grounds.

Third - finding the person, waiting for them for to appear, and drawing the next number would have taken too long. Besides people are trying to divide and conquer to find a good deal and cover as many tables as they can in the first day.... nobody is going to wait for an 027 box car. 

just an observation...

J Daddy posted:

Never would have worked...

One - you would never be guaranteed a car... so nobody is going to wait in line for a prayer of getting one.

Second - You cannot understand the loud speaker in the other halls or the grounds.

Third - finding the person, waiting for them for to appear, and drawing the next number would have taken too long. Besides people are trying to divide and conquer to find a good deal and cover as many tables as they can in the first day.... nobody is going to wait for an 027 box car. 

 

just an observation...

1. There are no guarantees in life

2. Ticket holders would be told/informed when they pick up their ticket. BIG sign telling them they must be present at 3 p.m. (or whatever time selected) to win.

3. No waiting for person to show up. Number is called; you raise your hand and shout, scream, etc.; and if you do not respond in a few seconds, the person drawing the numbers moves on to the next.

Allan Miller posted:

Here's what Lionel should have done:

Announce in advance the 50 (or whatever number) special run boxcars, along with "rules" detailing this process:

When doors open at noon Thursday, come to the Lionel booth and be given a two-part numbered ticket (as used at basket raffles, etc). You keep one part and the second part goes in a big fishbowl (or some such). Only ONE ticket per person.

At 3 p.m. (or whatever time selected), a Lionel rep. will reach in and, one at a time, draw 50 (or whatever) winners, who must have the second part of their ticket.

Winners must be present to claim their car. If not present when numbers is called, another number is drawn.

Simple and effective process!

Launch them into the hall with a catapult...  Let them fall in some lucky person's arms.

Rusty

Allan Miller posted:

J Daddy posted:

Never would have worked...

One - you would never be guaranteed a car... so nobody is going to wait in line for a prayer of getting one.

Second - You cannot understand the loud speaker in the other halls or the grounds.

Third - finding the person, waiting for them for to appear, and drawing the next number would have taken too long. Besides people are trying to divide and conquer to find a good deal and cover as many tables as they can in the first day.... nobody is going to wait for an 027 box car. 

 

just an observation...

1. There are no guarantees in life

2. Ticket holders would be told/informed when they pick up their ticket. BIG sign telling them they must be present at 3 p.m. (or whatever time selected) to win.

3. No waiting for person to show up. Number is called; you raise your hand and shout, scream, etc.; and if you do not respond in a few seconds, the person drawing the numbers moves on to the next.

Sure there are... death and taxes...

I would be up for it if there were only 50 tickets sold for 50 box cars...

J Daddy posted:

 

... nobody is going to wait for an 027 box car. 

...

Hhhmmmmm.... look at all the folks who reportedly lined up before 12 Noon outside the Orange Hall.  We're talking about toy train enthusiasts here!!! 

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

J Daddy posted:

 

... nobody is going to wait for an 027 box car. 

...

Hhhmmmmm.... look at all the folks who reportedly lined up before 12 Noon outside the Orange Hall.  We're talking about toy train enthusiasts here!!! 

David

Ok... let me rephrase. Most of us would not wait for a chance to win an 027 box car... the way Lionel did it was brilliant... you snooze you lose... well so it appeared.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

 

For those who DID get this much-talked-about boxcar, I hope it provides them much enjoyment NOW... because in 5 or 10 years, it'll very likely be worth $20 at most on the secondary market -- or perhaps a great conversation piece. 

David

My #49 is still sealed in the original cardboard box and packed away in my 1 of "blank" (fill in the blank) collection area that I maintain in a secured climate controlled facility. Yes...I have others that I have purchased during the last 45 years.

I put a note on it "DO NOT OPEN until August of 2054".....

That is my 100th birthday. I bet my heirs get a pretty penny for it.

Heck, for all I know, it may be an empty box. Maybe I need to get it x-rayed like that Post War craze thingy a number of years ago to authenticate the contents and then keep that image with the box.

Donald

No matter what Lionel had done with only 50 cars someone would complain.  It's life.  Could they have done it differently, sure.  But they didn't.  I suspect if 50 was the number they were intent on then do what they used to do with a slip of paper in the big drum with name and address would have been dandy.  I won like this once and they shipped it to me.  Draw the 50 names over 3 days so EVERYONE has a chance to win, even John Q Public.  The item is shipped to your home and you have a nice surprise waiting for you someday after work or when the mail comes.  I'm sure someone has another idea and so on and so on.

The ticket and number doesn't work.  Been there done that, heard the griping. 

Bottom line is we can all tell Lionel what they did wrong but for approx 50 people it was fine.  They walked away happy, some folks walked away disappointed but in the end no one got hurt, this thread got up to 6 pages, and we learned everything to do and not to do with 50 box cars. 

MartyE posted:

... this thread got up to 6 pages, and we learned everything to do and not to do with 50 box cars. 

How true, Marty!  All that's left to do is write Lionel a letter and thank them for this wonderful public service offering. 

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

MartyE posted:

... this thread got up to 6 pages, and we learned everything to do and not to do with 50 box cars. 

How true, Marty!  All that's left to do is write Lionel a letter and thank them for this wonderful public service offering. 

David

For someone who "doesn't care" and is sarcastic about and is hyper-critical of Lionel for this offering, I would think that the - what?? - dozen posts you've made on this subject would have come at some great personal angst.

Time to let "to each his own" be the dictum of this hobby.

Yep.  I did buy one of the boxcars.  Why not?

Richard Gonzales posted:

It's ALIVE!!!

EGORE!!!!  LOOK!!! IT'S ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!!

Richard

Indeed! Six pages. And counting. 

Laughing all the way.