Lionel Centipede: Disappointed

I'm pretty sure Vision Line includes free shipping back to lionel service. Just call the number in the manual and I'm sure they'll take care of it for you.

Surefire sorry to here about this, I wonder if a piece of the windshield plastic went into the fan unit, but I would wait to see what Mike Reagan says before you take off the shell. I'm quite sure Lionel will take care of this quick.

Alex

why wait for someone to "chime in" on a public forum?  if you have been reading much of ogrforum you would know Lionel service center is top notch and will take care of you.

The cab is actually its own contained unit, so all the pieces are within that. Going to email Lionel tomorrow and see about fixes or an RA#. Potentially taking off the shell does not bother me, and I would do so to replace the windshields to avoid shipping, but the fan noise is something I'm not so sure about. 

After business hours for Lionel, I could not get anything done tonight whether I wanted to or not. Figured I would post and see if anyone had similar issues, or the off chance someone from Lionel was browsing this forum and could offer their take. 

yes you can on the internet. 

I go here and by the middle of the next day I have my RA number.

http://www.lionel.com/ContactUs/

I believe on these VISION LINE Pieces taking off the Shell Voids the Warranty..

Surefire here's the view of the fan smoke unit

If you want to look in the fan unit just unscrew number 9 and you will see if there's anything in there, but again it's up to you Lionel customer service is top top notch.

it will all workout

Alex

Alex, thank you for the info, but I should clarify the fan noise I am talking about is the roof radiator fans not the smoke units. 

Oh sorry I misunderstood you, I would do what all the guys are saying call Lionel and get the RA number.

THANKS, ALEX

For anyone interested, here is another photo (w/o windshield) These are very pretty units. I plan to call Lionel in the morning.

Just for the heck of it here's the whole parts view you can see number 22 is the whole fan assembly.

Part #	Name	Sequence	Price
6304687002	SHELL / BALDWIN CENTIPEDE / BALDWIN DEMO #6000	1	$480.00		Must contact Lionel to order.
6304678772	4-WHEEL TRUCK / CENTIPEDE / VISION	2	$24.50		Unavailable
6304678770	8-WHEEL POWERED TRUCK / CENTIPEDE / VISION	3	$60.00		Unavailable
6304678119	AIR HOSE / M-U CONNECTIONS / REAR / CENTIPEDE	4	$3.60		Unavailable
6918040T50	BATTERY CLIP	5	$0.95		<input class="qty" id="qty_25716" name="qty.25716" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6911255115	BRACKET / I.R. DECODER PCB / UBER / LEGACY	6	$2.40		<input class="qty" id="qty_368825" name="qty.368825" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6911248T20	BRACKET / RAILSOUNDS LITE PCB MOUNT	7	$4.00		<input class="qty" id="qty_366865" name="qty.366865" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6304678205	BRACKET / SMOKE UNIT / CENTIPEDE	8	$4.60		Unavailable
6304678135	CAB INTERIOR / CENTIPEDE W/ CREW / GRAY	9	$9.40		Unavailable
6204536550	COIL COUPLER / MNT C / LENGTH: 1.74" / 2.0MM LEOCO	10	$10.00		<input class="qty" id="qty_29177" name="qty.29177" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6304678055	COUPLER / NON-WORKING / CENTIPEDE	11	$5.40		Unavailable
6101229081	COLLECTOR / SINGLE ROLLER	12	$6.40		<input class="qty" id="qty_371486" name="qty.371486" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6101107335	COLLECTOR INSULATOR / BOTTOM	13	$1.10		<input class="qty" id="qty_298213" name="qty.298213" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6304732334	COLLECTOR INSULATOR / TOP / RS-11	14	$0.80		<input class="qty" id="qty_375462" name="qty.375462" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6304678600	DC MOTOR / LIONDRIVE W/ FLYWHEEL / CENTIPEDE	15	$28.00		Unavailable
6304678602	DC MOTOR / LIONDRIVE W/ FLYWHEEL W/ SENSOR / LEG	16	$32.00		Unavailable
6101154130	DC MOTOR / MINIATURE FAN / DIAGONAL SCREW HOLES	17	$6.00		<input class="qty" id="qty_360321" name="qty.360321" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6304678130	DC MOTOR W/ FLYWHEEL / FAN DRIVE / CENTIPEDE	18	$12.40		Unavailable
6304678047	DIAPHRAGM / CENTIPEDE / RUBBER / LONG / STANDARD	19	$5.20		Unavailable
6101104135	ENCODER RING / OPTICAL / LEGACY	20	$8.00		<input class="qty" id="qty_298138" name="qty.298138" style="width: 50px;" type="text" value="1" />
6304678024	FAN / RADIATOR / BALDWIN CENTIPEDE	21	$2.60		Unavailable
6304678144	FAN DRIVE ASSEMBLY / RADIATOR / CENTIPEDE	22	$28.50		Unavailable
6304678518	FOAM PAD / 1/8" x 5/16" x 5/8" / FRONT LIGHTING	23	$0.30		Unavailable
6304678758	FRAME / STAMPED / CENTIPEDE / LEADING UNIT	24	$20.00		Unavailable
6304678033	FUNCTION SWITCHES W/ POT ASSEMBLY / CENTIPEDE	25	$18.50		Unavailable

<form action="/CustomerService/ReplacementParts/index.cfm" class="pagingFrm" method="get" style="float: left; width: 250px;">

<label for="resultsPerPage652CBC09" style="margin-right: 5px;">Results Per Page:</label>

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Those are just stupid-gorgeous and your issues will be resolved.

I have a set of UP's, would absolutely love the Demonstrators, too.  Heck, I have a mile-long list of stuff I'd love to have... oh, and there's the minor detail of getting a layout built, too.  Anyway, CONGRATS ON THE DEMOS (problem not withstanding, though inconvenient).

What a bummer having breakage and mechanical problems right out of the box. But on no account would I take off the shell; I learned to my cost that Vision line engines have much more complicated innards than standard Legacy models and there's no point voiding the warranty when these are really issues for factory repairs. Better to be safe than sorrier.

Some K-line engines had motorized roof fans and they were quite noisy due to having a strange plastic belt and pulley system to run them. The Lionel unit looks to be all gears in which case I'd imagine that one of them is not aligned or lubricated properly. I'd leave it up to one of Lionel's techies to deal with this. The service turn-around time is really fast although they might not have all the spare parts on hand just yet.

I have a FM trainmaster with the roof fans. They do make a fair amount of noise but not enough to drown out my engine sounds. Mine quited down quite a bit after some use time. May be there is a You Tube video that you can hear what the roof fans sound like so you have something to compare it to. At first I was annoyed at the sound but now look at it as if the real things definetly make noise when on. That's a beautiful engine you have there. I'm sure you will enjoy it very much once initial bugs are out. Legacy items for me have been rock solid after a trip or two to Lionel for tune ups. Sucks about windshields. My fans turn off if I shut down smoke unit with remote.

My PRR 5-stripe has one quiet and one noisy roof fan unit. The noisy fan is on the trailing A unit, and loud enough to be heard over the sound system set at a medium level.  I emailed Lionel through their web site the middle of last week but have not heard from them yet.

When I received my new Lionel Blue Comet about 6 months ago , fresh out of the box there was touched up paint to fill a chip on the cab roof and a casting hole in the metal near the nameplate. I called the dealer (Charles Ro) and they gladly replaced the complete Engine for a nice crisp one. Thank You Crarles Ro.  Good Luck with your situation.

And that should be thought #1.  Repairing brand new products is far too accepted by many participants, but whatever works for them, I guess.

-Dave

Kinda says it all, huh?

Bottom line is at Lionel, we stand behind the product.

Hey! love that service - way to go!  Also love my new Pennsy centipede!

I wholeheartedly second this sentiment. Mike Reagan and his team are the best. I've recently had cause to call for help with some small problems on one of my locomotives, and the support and service have been all that anyone could ask for. Lionel really do look after their customers.

Mike,

Your response was in the spam folder.  It did not say from Lionel, but "Talk To Us", which I probably would not have opened anyway thinking it was spam.  Here is your response:

"Ronald,
The Centipede fans are louder and we don't have a fix for that.
Thank you
Lionel"

The noise off that one fan is too loud to live with.  What do I do now?  Send it back to you so you can disconnect the fan? 

quote:

 End result; happy happy joy joy train time!

Could Mike be a fellow fan of Stinky Wizzleteats?

"Yes, brand new toys with problems suck, no matter how you slice it. The windows out, loud roof fans, blinking cab lights, whatever the case may be it can get frustrating, we can all agree. Blame it on production, QA, the freight carrier, heck the guy down the road if it suits you, I suppose. Bottom line is at Lionel, we stand behind the product. Our 1-2 day turn around on repairs is what I feel makes the "suck" suck less. Yes, it is Vision Line, we pick up the shipping tab. Contact service, explain the issue, get the RA and the call tag and shoot it in to Ohio. We'll do what we do best, test the snot out of it and get it back to you in short order. End result; happy happy joy joy train time! I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you what went wrong and where, but what good would it all be if your train still had the problem? Thanks." 

                     .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .   Mike Reagan

Lionel has the best service in the business and Mike Reagan makes all the difference. I send it in. He sends it back as if it were new. Can it be a pain? Not as big as a heart attack.

Scrapiron Scher

I just fired up my UP Centipede (luckily no physical damage) and the cab light blinked 3 times.  Man, was I scared.  I consulted the manual and it said if there are 3 blinks then there is a problem with the front smoke fan.  Sure enough there was no smoke coming from the front fan of the lead unit.  I was like man I don't want to send in my UP for service!!!  I followed the manual's instruction and reset the locomotive and that didn't help and the cab still blinked three times.  I next shut down the entire track power and powered it back up.  To my surprise the front smoke unit "magically" fired up and the blinking cab lights went away!!!  Woo hoo!  So happy.  Mike Reagon, can you chime in on why that is or was?  Was it simply a software issue that just needed a hard reset or am I just experiencing a temporary fix?

I had the same thing happen with my k-4. About a month later though it completely failed.

That's definitely not re-assuring.

I just noticed the roof fans on my trailing unit to be incredibly nosier than the lead unit which is silent.  Sounds like glass cracking when it spins.  Any owners experiencing the same problem?  The blinking cab lights come on every so often. Wonder if it's a sign of imminent smoke unit failure. 

Anyone know if we can just take the part (i.e. smoke unit and roof fans) off and send it directly to Lionel instead of sending the whole train itself?  I've disassembled engines before and Lionel engines are pretty straightforward.  Worst case is I am hoping to take it to a local Lionel service station not too far from my house.  I am trying to avoid sending the entire train via any carrier like UPS knowing how irresponsible they are.

I am sure Lionel pays a good amount of money to their manufactures for this high end product as we do as the end user. Maybe it is time for Lionel to protect themselves and inspect these high end models when they receive them of the boat. I am sure they would not ship it out if they saw the windows missing, so they would not incur the shipping cost to and from and possibly they may ship it back overseas or repair it themselves if they had the parts.

It must cost them money and if there were many in that condition it would cost Lionel a small fortune in shipping. They are heavy!

I know when we buy something in the high value range like the centipedes we inspect like a new born.

Just my two cents.

John

Perhaps it's not all Vision Line engines, but at least a few (and at least one non-Vision engine) have indications that if the user removes the shell, the warranty is voided.

And I am 100% with you on the UPS (and other carriers) concern.  That is not normally considered in the "but the customer service is top notch" responses.  I tend to worry about what else will happen to a unit in shipping even if it does come back with the original problem fixed.  (this is obviously not a Lionel exclusive problem, shippers can abuse a box from anyone)

-Dave

 (sorry for the odd modifying of the quote with the "...." above, but needed a good way to split the responses - the html looked much more involved then the way you could just use the quote/unquote switch in  the old days)

1) The way it is now this risk is successfully being transferred to the end customer, so what would be the motivation for a change on either the part of Lionel or the factory?  Right now Lionel only pays for the shipping to return a defective item to them for repair if you are a veteran (nothing wrong with giving veterans some benefit here), which reduces the risk, as only a certain percentage of customers fit that criteria.  The business model you suggest would just move it up one notch.  The factory can continue to ship whatever quality level of merchandise they wish, as they know there would need to be some really serious issues before anyone is going to send a container full of trains back across the ocean.  Now, if we were to suggest inspection before the items were accepted for shipment, that would be another story.  A bunch of messed up trains sitting in the factory because they were not built properly (or carefully enough, whichever the case may be) would actually have an impact on the factory operations.

2) The small fortune in shipping costs is now successfully spread across the end users, so this is a non-issue.

-Dave

So I've just boxed up my UP Centipede to send back to Lionel for repairs specifically the front smoke fan element on the lead unit and the abnormal roof fan noise on the trailing unit.  The roof fans on the trailing you unit sounds like broken glass compared to the whisper quietness of the ones on the lead unit.  Good thing Lionel is picking up the shipping cost on this since the box weighs over 31lbs alone.  Can't wait to get her back.  Praying for a safe delivery to Lionel.

Surefire, did you send you Centipede back to Lionel for repair?  Mine is on its way back and after talking to the Lionel rep, she told me that the one and only Director of Repairs himself, Mike Reagan, worked on it!  Nice to know Vision owners get the personal touch from the big kahuna. 

Apparently the repair notes to be included is very detailed including a 3 hour run with a 16 car consists.  Unfortunately, they could not duplicate the blinking cab light indicative of a malfunctioning smoke fan code.  I am hoping that it is an isolated incident and will not pop up again.  I also complained of nosy roof fans on the trailing unit and the rep told me the roof fan gears were re-lubricated and that some noise was normal.  Hopefully the sound of cracking glass is significantly less.  Well, at least I have warranty on this baby until 2014.  Praying the engines arrive back home unscathed.  Excited to see her again!!

I have to sent my brand new Diesel UP twice to Ohio and later on my Legacy remote also twice and Mr. M. Reagan took care with my remote I send me a new one right away, Thank you.

I'm sure once the bugs are gone you will be thrilled to death with it. It's a gorgeous engine. That is as sophisticated as toy trains get, sure to be a few bugs. Lionel will get it perfect for you then I bet it runs years trouble free. Enjoy ever minute. I'd love to have one. 

I've just run my UP Centipede for the first time and have the noisy roof fan issue on the front unit; the rear unit is fine. I have tried the fix Mike R. suggested above (taking the fans off and oiling the shafts on which they are mounted), but it's plain that the noise is coming from the gears inside the fan unit. Anyone have a different fix? Has anyone who has sent their Centipede back for this issue had it returned with a satisfactory repair? 

(Ansonn, what happened with your repair??)

FWIW I believe in the case of vision line locos, shipping is covered both ways during the 2 year warranty.

later on my Legacy remote also twice and Mr. M. Reagan took care with my remote I send me a new one right away, Thank you.

I wish I had the same luck.  I sent a brand new Legacy remote and base unit that had not been upgraded and got back a well worn replacement.  Unfortunately, that has deeply soured my interest in purchasing new Lionel equipment that may have to be sent in for service.  That was the second time that I had that kind of experience.  The first time, I sent a new engine with perfect box and outer carton only to receive back a repaired unit that was not mine with boxes in poor condition.

I understand Lionel probably states they have the right to replace with like unit, but like unit to me, is when it comes in like new, it should be returned like new.

The clattering of the front unit roof fan gear mechanism is loud enough - especially when the engine gains speed (so do the fans) - to interfere with hearing the Legacy sound effects. This can't be "normal." I'm guessing that the mechanism came from the factory improperly aligned or inadequately lubed.

However I also notice that the front unit's fans spin faster than the rear unit's and its the front where the noise is.

The old K-Line motorized roof fans used a belt and pulley system. It made a slight noise.

Ansonnn, I don't suppose that you took notice of how the mechanism is fixed to the body shell and whether there is any way to lube the inside gears?

Ansonnn,

Thank you for the update.  My Centipede has one quiet and one noisy (loud) fan just like yours and several others.  I tried lightly oiling the noisy one based on Mike's recommendation, but no change in sound.  You are a lot braver than me by taking off the shell and voiding the warranty.

If no one comes up with a fix soon, I will be sending my units back to Lionel to have them disconnect the noisy fan.

Ron 

I have been annoyed with the noise of the roof fans on both FM Trainmasters. It is loud and it seems to be the plastic gears making the noise.  My solution was to disconnect the lead to the fan motor. I would like to have them work silently, however I do not have a clue what is required to achieve that. Fred

Are these fan gears metal or plastic?  I know that with HO scalers, in order to quiet down some noisy gearboxes - They use a gritty tooth paste like "Pearl Drops".  They run for about an hour, clean gears - shave off any flashing on the gears and then re-lube.

Wow I cannot believe you guys think this is acceptable on a $2100.00 dollar train.  I mean it's not a cheap 300 dollar engine.  My mortgage payment is less than that.  I learned my lessen long ago.  I test any engine I buy at my LHS for 20 minutes before I hand over my credit card.  Plus if anything goes wrong fairly soon after the sale I return it for another Or a refund.  I mean it seems anymore that you have to factor in the cost of shipping back to service as a given when you buy an engine.  I don't care how nice an engine is, if it's not perfect it goes back.  No engine is worth spending that kind of money and living with defects.  Of the last 6 engines I bought, I had to exchange 4 due to electronic issues or cosmetic/broken item issues.  And these were all 900.00 To 1300.00 engines I watched them open these from sealed shipping boxes.  Maybe if you guys would stop accepting poor quality they would do something about it.  Sending an item to Service should be the exception not the norm.

See thats the problem I think.  You really believe it is out of their control.  There are plenty of company's that make products here and overseas that don't have this kind of failure rate. Don't know where you got the restaurant scenario.  That makes zero sense.  Spilled water is an accident, who cares.  If the waiter spilled water on customers every night that would affect their business even if it was a 20.00 meal.  I am talking about consistent failures.  

Your point is valid Sean, however I think the market for O guage trains is so narrow that "it is what it is" as they say, no, doesn't make it right. I'd like to know which manufacturer in this hobby produces a line of completely trouble free anything? Some of the brass manufacturers only turn out a couple hundred locos if that, and still folks here on the forum have complained of defects in multiple models of the same locos. This QC thing has been beaten to death and the reasons for the problems have been well covered by those in the hobby "who know" i.e. Allan Miller for one. No one likes it, "it is what it is" and FWIW  Mike Reagan and crew are  at least giving the best effort they can to rectify the issue. As long as Lionel continues "pushing the envelope" with electronic features problems will continue to arise until they run out of new ideas. Some other brands have seen little change in same models in between releases. Lionels recent legacy/vision locos are drastically different than their previous TMCC predecessors. This doesn't make any brand better or worse, there are just different ways that manufacturers choose to do things, and there have still been electronic issues in all brands, even Williams.

You make some good points Sand Jam. We all have to find a solution that makes sense to ourselves. Your method of swapping for new makes sense to you and it works. Your LHS seems to be on board with this which is a huge help to you. I swapped a few non working out of the box units at my LHS. I just bought a new MTH engine and it was DOA. It can be frustrating. I am at the point where I have enough to play with so if a new engine fails I just send it back to maker for repairs. Hopefully it will get better as far as quality control in manufacturing goes but if it doesnt it doesn't. This is a very unique hobby regarding this. 

I believe what you have described is called an "abusive relationship."  In this case it is delineated upon commercial lines with the buyer playing the role of the victim.

At over $ 2000+ for what is purely a luxury item these type of product defects should not be occurring. What this case and others similar to it demonstrate is that there is a disconnect between what is going on in the factory in China and what should be reasonably expected by the end user.

Given the dollar amounts and the nature of the product involved, an objective outsider would probably see this particular situation as crazy.

I would not be interested in purchasing an item of this nature regardless of the level of my disposable income.  Too many headaches.

I haven't been in contact with Lionel about my problem yet so I hope my comment is not unfair, but I think that the problem with this engine is (a) unlikely to be resolved by the oiling suggested by Mike R. earlier in this thread (I have tried it and it made no difference) and (b) seems to reflect some issue in the manufacturing process. 

The gears in the fan mechanism look to me to be metal - see the Lionel replacement parts photo copied in the first part of this thread. The noise is from the gears inside the mechanism and I think that they are not properly seated in place. Either that or the DC motor that runs the mechanism is itself not properly aligned between the gear on its shaft and the main gear in the mechanism. These are things that can only be checked by taking off the body shell. If it wasn't for the warranty I'd be tempted to order a new gear mechanism and motor from Lionel and do the necessary work myself.

The motorized roof fans were an uncataloged feature of his engine and they are not referred to in the manual at all. The gear mechanism must have been specially made for this purpose and you'd think that production samples of them must have been tested before these units started to be manufactured. Given the importance of the set's sound features I don't believe Lionel would let them be built with defective fan gear mechanisms so I infer that some of them are either from a bad batch or were badly installed. That would also account for why there are many cases of one unit functioning OK and one not.

Everyone appreciates the great service from Lionel repairs but they are having to make up ground for manufacture/design faults that are really bothersome. I suppose an ideal system of QC would involve test running every engine and that would probably have revealed the noise issue with many of these before they were shipped. I can't imagine that this testing happens however.

Seems like all these extra "fiddly" features add more problems and less enjoyment than they're worth.

Rusty