Lionel fyi on track cleaning solutions: alcohol's a definite NO-NO!

Been there, done that:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...62#28460584392538962

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...72#21421491211968772

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...66#25082184655929166

 

And the grandaddy of then all...

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...29#15931049901274029

 

 

Jerry

Looking at a bottle of De-Solve-it ( a citric based cleaner), I see the following ingredients listed . . .Essential citrus oils,  Vitamin E,  Aloe Vera,  Organic wetting agents.  Contains no water.

 

Under instructions for hard surfaces  (O, 027 track for example)  it says  APPLY  -  WIPE  -  RINSE      in most cases, let sit for 20 - 30 seconds, for tougher challenges, let sit longer before wiping.  It doesn't say what to rinse with (H2O maybe?),  It does caution that if you use it on rubber, it should be washed off after use. (If you can't get water on fastrack to rinse it off, then what happens if it gets on your traction tires?

 

PS    I've used 91% isopropyl for years (fastrack) and have suffered no ill effects.

 

Steam Rules

 

"a country boy can survive"   (Bocephus, 1981)

Well, all Lionel does is make and market the equipment; what would they know?

After looking at the MSDS for De-Solv-it, I'll stick to Isopropyl Alcohol.

Bull!  citric based cleaner?  Orange juice if for breakfast, not cleaning track.

 

I will stick with iso-alcohol.

I stopped using goo gone. It was leaving a film on the track that would not go away.

Plus it seemed to make traction tires slip right off.

I like the idea of WD-40, however I usually, use the  isopropyl alcohol then use a small dab of light machine oil on the center rail, just to keep it from oxidizing.

 

 

goo gone is turpentine.  It will dissolve your traction tires just like it dissolves any rubber based glue.

I also remember Lionel saying WD-40 was what to use, it was here on this forum, a lionel video maybe? also saying it seemed to improve DCS signal?

Maybe I remembered wrong.

 

Clem k 

Goo Gone contains petroleum distillates and citrus terpenes, at least that's what my bottle says.  Not sure what citrus terpenes are?  Also don't know what is in those orange hand wipes that are citrus scented, but they will remove roofing tar from your jeans (while still fresh) should you ever encounter that particular problem.

 

Clem k, I think it was a video, but I can't find it. I remember something similar to what you are saying also.

I have always used automotive brake clean or acetone to clean my track.  Keeps the tubular nice and shiny and does not interfere with dcs signals.  

Used to clean track - quit, and everything still runs fine. Let the wheels polish the rails! 

 

Track cleaning is overrated, laborious and I have neither the energy nor the time! 

 

PS: My DCS Proto 2 and 3 locos and Legacy and TMCC engines run just fine without any issues!

 

The only alcohol (ethyl, C2H5OH) I use is the premium drinking kind! 

 

 

Jerry

Whatever it is, it dissolves or softens traction tires so they swell and distort, then over time they harden in their new "shape." I bought a used Vision CC2 that was a lovely, well-cared for model, except the owner cleaned track and wheels with goo gone.  The tires had swelled and flat spotted where they sat on the rails.  The thing ran like a pig, jiggling and thumping, until i removed the tires (I did not replace them either.  It runs and pulls very well without them). 

Reading through this discussion, it appears that you are in crowd of equals,

 

 

 

Rubbing alcohol - generally isopropyl alcohol anywhere from 60-90% with the remainder being water.  Avoid the scented or other additive added labeled bottles such as wintergreen - that's would be a trace fo salicylaldehyde whic will leave a residue yet leave your track nice and minty.  You will find some rubbing alcohol that is ethyl alcohol...

 

Denatured alcohol - used to be 99% ethyl alcohol with a trace of benzene added to dissuade its consumption, but last I checked it dropped to anywhere from 60-75% ethyl alcohol with all sorts of petroleum products - get a copy of the MSD of the web - Google is your friend and it'll be available as a pdf file.  Some of those products are high boiling compounds and are not going away anny time soon.

 

Citrus cleaners - all kinds of stuff in them depending on brand and and which version -- again, get a copy of the MSD of the web and see what's in them.  Almost every one has higher boiling (low evaporation) petroleum products in them and a percent of the natural product terpenoids that give citrus that citrus smell.  Citric acid is slightly more acidic than acetic acid (vinegar component), and while one might wnat to assume that it's acidic properties are a problem (probably not actually since there's probably more your glass a juice than in your cleaner), it's far more probable to be be a problem as a chelating agent that will degrade metals.

 

Goo Gone and the like......

 

 

Hmmmm...... Basically, lower boiling point hydrocarbon solvent in better than 90%, a little terpenoid limonene for scent, and a little polyglycol ether to help dissolve what the hydrocarbon doesn't and to keep "stuff" in solution......  Neither of the latter 2 are going to evaporate away, so your track will smell nice.

 

Back to the lab.........

 

 

 

This is the best description I've found, and it jives with what I've already learned over the years.  My experience with 91% Isopropyl Alcohol has been that I have never seen any residue left behind.  Not that there isn't some tiny bit of something, but it's never been a factor.  I've used it for cleaning electronic boards for 40+ years, and it's never caused any issues.  I think it's probably safe for my track, and I use it there as well.

Isopropanol has a higher vapour pressure than water. Isopropanol boils at 82 deg C, water at 100 deg C. That is the temperature at which the vapour pressure becomes 1 atmosphere. But the vapour pressure of water falls off more rapidly with temperature decreasing below 100 deg C than the temperature rate of fall-off in the vapour pressure of isopropanol. This is because water has a higher heat of vaporization.

So isopropanol has a much higher room temperature vapour pressure than water.

If there is an "ideal solution" of two liquids, then the vapour pressure varies linearly with mole fraction. That is, for a mixture with equal numbers of water and isopropanol molecules, the vapour pressure will be halfway between that of pure water and that of pure isopropanol, if the solution is "ideal". This mixture of equal numbers of molecules works out to be 77% isopropanol, because molecules of isopropanol are much bigger and heavier than water molecules. In fact, the solution is far from ideal, and an 88% isopropanol in water solution actually boils at a lower temperature than pure isopropanol. But by the time you get down to 70% isopropanol, the lower room temperature vapour pressure of water is haing a major effect, and the vapour pressure of 70% isopropanol is significantly lower than that of pure isopropanol.

The rate of evaporation is much more complicated: apart from the vapour pressure, which is a major factor, it depends on air currents at the surface of the liquid, local cooling in the liquid where the evaporation is taking place, and currents within the liquid. You probably know that you can speed up evaporation a little bit by stirring a liquid, rather more by making waves at the liquid surface, and a lot more by blowing a gentle air current over the surface of a liquid. Isopropanol vapour is denser than water vapour, and will be more likely to form an immobile layer at the liquid surface, reducing evaporation. Evaporation of water will cause more local chilling than evaporation of isopropanol, slightly reducing evaporation. But as long as you take steps to see that other conditions are matched when you are comparing the evaporation of two liquids, the vapour pressure factor will probably dominate.

Bottom line appears to be that the 91% stuff is probably the best choice.

Having tried other stuff (and had absolute disasters) it is the only choice for me.

 

WHAT WAS THAT GUY MIXING to get the monstrous explosion of white goo?  I gotta know . . . 

I don't know what he mixed, but I've seen that same demo at a party for my grandson.  We had a science outfit do a demo as part of the party, that was one of the things they did.  Good thing they spread a plastic sheet on the carpet before they started!

 

Lee, I figured you were NOT a candidate for the Citric cleaners.

 

Perhaps we (OGR forum members) could get Lee, Gunner, or mwb to send a memo about chemical properties and the laws of physics to the new guy at Lionel?

 

Steam Rules

 

"a country boy can survive!"    (Bocephus,  1981)

 

I have used 91% alcohol since my 1970s HO days. Never noticed any sort of problem.

 

That's probably polyurethane foam demo.  Think of those cans of spray foam insulation in a can (Great Stuff) and now mix the 2 components in the open air.  Probably not something to do as demo anymore.

As for using just 91% isopropanol - it will not dissolve many types of grease and oil but be generally safe for everything else.  You will need something more aliphatic to take up grease and oils; in large part, odorless mineral spirits will handle that task. 

 

In either case, adequate ventilation would be wise.  Different solvents affect individuals differently.  Your mileage and tolerance to their exposure may vary.  Side effects that will affect all includes growing old and dying at some future time point.  This message is brought to you by your daily dose of entropy and sponsored by the heat death of the Universe.  Have a nice day!

Perhaps we (OGR forum members) could get Lee, Gunner, or mwb to send a memo about chemical properties and the laws of physics to the new guy at Lionel?

I'm pretty sure their minds are made up, why confuse them with facts.


I keep two common solvents at the ready, Isopropyl Alcohol and Naphtha.  Between the two, I can deal with most cleaning.  I have mineral spirits available as well, but while the can says odorless, they lie!

I will say that Isopropyl Alcohol is not safe for the paint on your equipment.  If you try to clean something off a painted car or engine, you're likely to take the paint off.  Naphtha seems to be a better choice here, it doesn't seem to affect most paints.  Of course, I test it on a hidden surface before I trust that it true!

91% isopropyl alcohol.....for track cleaning.......safe and effective......

 

 

There are 4 other threads noted above......I have a long diatribe on the last one which I won't repeat here and bore everyone.....

 

Peter

Naphtha is a great degreaser. I have used it extensively on camera lens auto diaphragms to clean oil off the blades. Never a problem with the metal and mechanicals. I can't say the same for some of the coatings on the lenses though. Be careful there!

So, here's a thought...

 

Lionel sells a Lubrication & Maintenance Kit, 6-62927.  Front and center in the bubble package is a 2 oz. bottle of....Track Cleaner.  (Background music: Opening four notes of the Dragnet theme!)

 

It's 'Made in China', so we may never know what's really in it.  I'm at work now and my gas chromatograph equipment is at home (), so I can't contribute what's in it.  Our open bottle at the store (LHS) has a pleasant bouquet.  Maybe citrus-ish.  Maybe something from Chanel.....dunno.  Definitely NOT Goo-Gone-ish, tho'. 

 

The bottle sez on its backside "Track Clean #2927-15".  I tried to find the MSDS sheet on Lionel's website.   Yeah.....right. 

 

The backside also sports the ubiquitous cautionary note "KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN", ....which is straight from Duh-ville and a lawyer's delight. 

 

So the question......Whazinit!??

 

I've enjoyed reading the thread responses to Lionel's printed recommendation.  It's been rather amusing, in fact.  One of the most common questions we (LHS) get from new Lionel customers...you know, purchasers of sets around the holidays...is "What should I clean the track with?"  Of course, it's our opportunity to offer the Lionel maintenance kit.  But, perhaps we should compile the various forum responses to the issue of track cleaner substances, hand it to the customer, and say....'Pick one!'?  Disagree with Lionel, if you must/will, but in the absence of any manufacturer's recommendation, the sheep will wander about.  Some direction....ANY direction...that works is being responsible, IMHO.  It somewhat surprises me that Lionel hasn't bottled their kit 'Track Cleaner' separately, and made THAT their only recommendation.  Go figure.

 

What else?  We sell a fair amount of a product called Rail-Zip, by Robart Mfg..  It's description sez:

Track cleaner and corrosion inhibitor. Penetrates existing corrosion layers and restores electrical conductivity to the track. Also retards future corrosion by a molecular reaction with the base metal. Non-toxic, contains no solvents, acids, alkalies or alcohols, safe for all metals and plastics.

 

Mostly the two-railers (HO, N) use it in the railroading end of the hobby.  Those that use it swear by it.   But, it's also used by he R/C airplane guys in a way you'd hardly expect; They coat the trailer harness contacts with the stuff!  Many of this crew fly the very large airplanes/drones, using a small enclosed trailer with racks to carry them to the field.  They stumbled onto the use of Rail-Zip for the trailer electrical connection, and the rest is sales history.

 

Oh, the other track cleaner we sell lots of is Walthers' Life-Like Track Cleaner.  Still available.  Still popular.  Still blue.  Here, again, dunno whazinit.

 

BTW....while perusing Lionel's website for info, I came across the listing of their tutorial videos.   I didn't find anything on track cleaning, but I found two others that I thought rather amusing: Legacy Tutorials #28 and #29.  #28: Building a Lash-up.  #29: Running a Lash-up.  Oh my.  from bad advice to bad nomenclature.  Poor Lionel.

 

KD

 

 

 

If you are in Canada and considering purchasing Rail-Zip from Amazon.ca don't. The Canadian price is $23.99 and on Amazon.com it's $4.20. 

Be afraid, be very afraid, of Rail-Zip. Just one very small drop on each rail, then run your trains to spread it around. Otherwise you may just spend your time watching your locos spin their wheels in place.

 

When they were still in business, a young man at the local Great Train Store was told to clean the track on the overhead 'G' layouts, and given a bottle of Rail-Zip with no further instructions. He proceeded to squirt Rail-Zip on a rag, and wipe down the rails of all three overhead tracks with it. It took them a week of steady cleaning to get the locos to actually move around the tracks again.

 

 

The trains will tell you when the track needs to be cleaned, if you see rust anywhere on your tracks you are not running your trains enough. I been using alcohol for over fifty years and have never had any problems. Lionel's operation have not been in one place long enough for anything to rust……..

Its not unusual for a forum to have more knowledge and expertise than the company(s) whose products that are it's main interests. Rather fun, this hobby . 

Well...in some areas.

Sounds like hogwash to me.  What really degrades "the electrical connectivity of your trains" is dirt.

.....

Dennis

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