Lionel Hudson Engines - large or small?

I read an article in this forum a year or so ago outlining a Lionel Hudson Family Tree and identifying which models were scale and which were semi-scale.  It listed the 1937 700E as scale along with the 700K, the 1990 "5340" 18005, the 1997 "5344" 18056, the 2000 Gold "1900" 28062 and the 2010 "VL 5344" 11209 and "VL 5331" 11218 700E's.  Semi-scale models included the original 763E, the 1950 773, the 1964 773, the 1984 "783" 8406, the 1986 "784" 8606, the 1987 "785" 18002 and the 1997 "773" 18058.

Looking through Greenberg's catalog I found many more Hudsons:  2008 "Dreyfus J-3a 5448" 11148 , 1990 "5340" 18012, 1992 Dreyfus 2-rail 18026, 1993 Dreyfus 3-rail 18027, 1993 18029, 2007 "5279" 21298, 1999 "5406" 28007, 2000 "5450" 28030, 2000 "5412" 28065, 2001 "J-3a 5444" 28072, 2002 "LCC Empire State" 38000, 2001 "773" 38015, 2003 "J-3a 5418" 38045, 2003 "5422" 38085, 2003 "607" 38086, 2007 "5417" 38634, 2008 "309" 38635, 2007 "5242" 38636, and 2008 "2939" 38637 -- I may have missed one or two.

How does one tell if these are the large Hudsons or the smaller "baby" Hudsons?  How does one tell which are semi-scale and which are scale?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Original Post

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Familiarity (NYC Hudsons are my favorite loco, only challenged by the NYC Niagara, occasionally). Price. Era (except for the 700E and its decendants - 773, 785, 783, re-issued 700E - all PW Hudsons are small, with either no prototype or a Santa fe prototype: 2055, etc.)

All Lionel Dreyfuss and ESE Hudsons are scale - but note the little PW 221 Dreyfuss "Hudson" (it's a 2-6-4; cute as a button). Anything listed as "J3" or "J3a" is 1:48 - except the Lionmaster J3a. The Commodore Vanderbilt is 1:48; the 1990's 5344 J1e with the incorrect Vanderbilt (ironically) tender is 1:48.

Is there a book? I'd like one, too.

Lionel website - look up Hudson, including archived items.

Looks - pretty much, if it isn't 1:48, it will look it - the Lionmaster J3a being an exception, pretty much.

Price.

Curve requirements - if it's under 054, it's sub-1:48, pretty dependably. 

Lionel made many Hudson locomotives.  Then they made the best one ever.  The Vision line Hudson.

 

 

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Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Lionel made many Hudson locomotives.  Then they made the best one ever.  The Vision line Hudson.

Agreed Marty,

When you came out to Lionel Ohio last time I was demonstrating a VL Hudson to a friend who was a 2 rail scale guy.  He sold his 2 rail stuff and now everything is Legacy.  Impressive piece for sure.

A story to go with the first Lionel Ohio open house.  Mike calls and says what he is going to do with the open house.  Thinks about 100 people will show.  I said you're underestimating this open house.  How about I sleep over at your house and we get an early (6am) start.  Final head count was over 400.  Those were fun times.

Lou N

From purely a size perspective and without getting into the streamlined versions, I'd say there are at least 4 categories of Hudsons produced by Lionel. Others can chime in, but here's the 4 I've come up with:

1. Scale Sized - these include pre-war, post-war, and modern versions. As someone pointed out above, some might not be considered true scale models due to lack of detail, but there's a large group of from the various eras.

2. Lionmaster - New in the modern era. Not-to-scale, but more detailed than categories below. Might've only been a few offerings in this class in the 2000s (I love mine).

3. Baby Hudsons - This name, I think, was assigned to the ones like the 2046 and 2056 in the postwar period and some similar models, I think the 2065, etc.  The O27 semi-scale Hudsons made by Williams and Williams by Bachmann in the modern era are similar in size.

4. Junior Hudsons - These are even smaller than the Baby Hudsons and were made in the modern era. You can find some of these on the Lionel website. 

 

 

raising4daughters posted:

From purely a size perspective and without getting into the streamlined versions, I'd say there are at least 4 categories of Hudsons produced by Lionel. Others can chime in, but here's the 4 I've come up with:

1. Scale Sized - these include pre-war, post-war, and modern versions. As someone pointed out above, some might not be considered true scale models due to lack of detail, but there's a large group of from the various eras.

2. Lionmaster - New in the modern era. Not-to-scale, but more detailed than categories below. Might've only been a few offerings in this class in the 2000s (I love mine).

3. Baby Hudsons - This name, I think, was assigned to the ones like the 2046 and 2056 in the postwar period and some similar models, I think the 2065, etc.  The O27 semi-scale Hudsons made by Williams and Williams by Bachmann in the modern era are similar in size.

4. Junior Hudsons - These are even smaller than the Baby Hudsons and were made in the modern era. You can find some of these on the Lionel website. 

 

 

Add one more:

5. The pre-war almost a Hudson (2-6-4) 226E.  This became the post war Berkshire casting.

Lou N

TM Books & Video made a very wonderfully detailed video encompassing both the scale and semi scale Hudsons - all the large ones really - made from 1937 to 2003 in very scrutinizing specifics.

It doesn't include all the junior Hudsons (doing that would require a two or three hour video for themselves alone likely), but I would recommend it for any Lionel Hudson fan.

Thomas

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Norton posted:

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Let's cut this notion that semi-scale describes scale-proportioned models with fewer details. When manufacturers use the term, it is only to describe undersized models.

Some hobbyists wrongly adapted the term to bring details into the picture. Which is ridiculous, because, tell me, when is the threshold crossed for the amount of detail? It only causes confusion.

Jim R. 

This is the Scale-sized list that I have compiled.

PREWAR SCALE
1937J1E700EWNYC#5344c.1931
1937J1E700EWXNYC#5344c.1931
1938J1E700KWNYC#5344c.1931
1938J1E700KWXNYC#5344c.1931
      
PREWAR SEMI-SCALE
1937J1E763EW-GUNMETALLL#763Ec.1931
1940J1E763EW-BLACKLL#763Ec.1931
      
POSTWAR SEMI-SCALE
1950J1E773LTS-2426WLL#773c.1931
1964J1E773LTS-736WPRR#773c.1931
1965J1E773LTS-773WNYC#773c.1931
      
MODERN SEMI-SCALE
1984J1E8406NYC#783c.1931
1986J1E8606NYC#784c.1931
1987J1E18002NYC#785c.1931
1997J1E18062ATSF#3447c.1931
2000J1E18058NYC#773c.1931
2001J1E38015NYC#773c.1931
2005J1E38096LL#773c.1931
      
MODERN SCALE
1990J1E18005NYC#5340c.1931
1997J1E18056NYC#5344c.1931
2000J1E28062LL#1900c.1931
      
MODERN STREAMLINED
1995L118043C&O#490c.1948
      
MODERN COMMODORE VANDERBILT
1996J1E18045NYC#777c.1934
1997J1E18067NYC#777c.1934
1999J1E18063NYC#777c.1934
2000J1E28012LL#264Mc.1934
2000J1E28024LL#265Mc.1934
      
VISION LINE
2010J1E11209NYC#5344c.1931
2010J1E11218NYC#5331c.1931
      
UNSHROUDED
2001J3A28072NYC#5444c.1937
2002J3A38041NYC#5433c.1937
      
DREYFUSS
1993J3A18029NYC#5450c.1938
2001J3A28084NYC#5452c.1938
      
EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS CENTURY CLUB
2005J3A38000-STREAMLINEDNYC#5429c.1941
2005J3A38097-PT TENDERNYC#5429c.1946
      
EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS LEGACY
2015J3A82529-STREAMLINEDNYC#5426c.1941
2015J3A82534-STREAMLINEDNYC#5429c.1941
2015J3A82535-PT TENDERNYC#5426c.1946
2015J3A82536-PT TENDERNYC#5429c.1946
2015J3A82537-J3 TENDERNYC#5426c.1948
      

No Lionmaster, Baby or Junior Hudsons here.

 

Benny

The C&O Yellow Belly streamlined Hudson is what is referred to as semi-scale.  It's the right length, right driver diameter and even comes with a pony truck with scale wheels for display purposes.  I bought mine new in 1996 and after a year of running, the sound card self destructed.

Allin posted:

I wonder where the Lionchief Plus Hudsons fall? I have heard the post war semi-scale Hudsons called Santa Fe Hudsons.

The Lion Chief Plus line has one Hudson, and one Pacific that should be a Hudson. Both are based on postwar engines. Neither is scale.

The Hudson is based on the 646 / 2046, which has a vaguely NYC outline. It shared its boiler casting with the 736 Berkshire, which was in turn derived from the prewar 226E "almost Hudson," 2-6-4. This boiler is the basis for the command-equipped Hudsons on the top and bottom shelves in the picture posted above by Ed H., and for the new Lion Chief Plus Berkshires also.

The "Pacific" is based on the 665 / 2055. This was the Santa Fe Hudson, and it is very obviously modeled after the AT&SF 3460 class Hudsons. The model is just a bit smaller than the 646 NYC type. The Santa Fe Hudson is easily identified by the long, pointed pilot, and the vertical air compressor shroud on only one side of the pilot beam.

Irritatingly, Lionel chose  the NYC casting for its "Santa Fe" Lion Chief engine (twice! a Hudson and a now a Berk, too), while using the Santa Fe Hudson tooling for any and every road except the Santa Fe.

Jim R. posted:
Norton posted:

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Let's cut this notion that semi-scale describes scale-proportioned models with fewer details. When manufacturers use the term, it is only to describe undersized models.

Some hobbyists wrongly adapted the term to bring details into the picture. Which is ridiculous, because, tell me, when is the threshold crossed for the amount of detail? It only causes confusion.

 

Actually, The term scale/semi scale began with Lionel itself. It was used so customers can differentiate between the full scale #5344 Hudson with scale drivers that ran only on scale T rail track and Hudson's that followed such as the semi scale #763 Hudson that ran on tubular.
Joe

 

 

nickaix posted:

Irritatingly, Lionel chose  the NYC casting for its "Santa Fe" Lion Chief engine (twice! a Hudson and a now a Berk, too), while using the Santa Fe Hudson tooling for any and every road except the Santa Fe.

They are just continuing the Post War tradition where K5s and Turbines got NYC style tenders and the 2046 and 736s got Pennsy style tenders. 

Pete

Jim R. posted:
Norton posted:

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Let's cut this notion that semi-scale describes scale-proportioned models with fewer details. When manufacturers use the term, it is only to describe undersized models.

Some hobbyists wrongly adapted the term to bring details into the picture. Which is ridiculous, because, tell me, when is the threshold crossed for the amount of detail? It only causes confusion.

If  the term "scale" only refers to size, then how do we differentiate between fully detailed models such as the 18005 and same size models lacking the full details such as the 18002?

 

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

My first Hudson was the O27 passenger set in the 1980's from the sears catalog. I think it was #8606. I have some of the 1990's Hudsons, but always in the market for more(naturally).

Not a Hudson. The NYC 8606 (Lionel 6-18606) was a 2-6-4, which was used in Sears sets during the late 1980s. I have the 8607 -- same loco, only in U.P. Overland paint scheme.

Jim R. 

Jim R. posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

My first Hudson was the O27 passenger set in the 1980's from the sears catalog. I think it was #8606. I have some of the 1990's Hudsons, but always in the market for more(naturally).

Not a Hudson. The NYC 8606 (Lionel 6-18606) was a 2-6-4, which was used in Sears sets during the late 1980s. I have the 8607 -- same loco, only in U.P. Overland paint scheme.

I actually had to go look. It has been so long since I have had that set out I forgot what it was. Pacific's hiding in plain sight, lol. My first Hudson then is the 763E J1-E in the 1997 Catalog with the Vanderbilt Tender. I actually have to swap out the regular wheels on the engine for the traction tire one. I wonder what the difference in pulling power would be with those on?

Tinplate Tom posted:

A lot of Lionel pre war stuff, like the 671 and 2020 turbine locomotives were actually built to 3/16th of an inch to the foot but run on O gauge track.  Selective compression at its best.

While maybe selective compression at it's best, (and Lionel continues to be the master of it) the 671 and 2020's aren't 3/16ths scale.  Not a single one has ever been converted to S scale because they're way to big.

Selective compression has no "scale" as such, because  different ratio's are used for length, width and height.

Rusty

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