Lionel RDC TMCC Upgrade

Very nice. Sounds like these modifications will completely transform the character of the RDCs, and make them much more fun and interesting to run.

Of particular interest to me was that the AC Commander provides very good low speed operation, and presumably smooth operation throughout its range, with the 100 speed steps. I wonder if an AC Commander installed in place of the factory-installed TMCC unit in, say, a F-3, or a Geep, would be worth it with respect to improvements in operating characteristics. Obviously a matter of individual judgement, but would the improvement be significant enough to justify the cost?

John, what sound set did you use? Back when Jon was starting out he had a Sound Commander for the RDCs along with a Buddy Commander cousin to the Beep Commander. Perfect for the single motored Williams RDC.  The RDC Sound Commander has a very nice two chime horn. You could also order a single chime. Keep an eye out for them in case they should pop up.

Pete

Nice upgrade!

I find in amazing that over all the years (I'm relatively sure) Lionel never re-did these in any roadname  with either TMCC or Legacy (which I'm sure influenced why someone wanted you to upgrade these).  I would wonder if something happened to the tooling, but they did re-do them in the Conventional Classics line.

-Dave

breezinup posted:

Of particular interest to me was that the AC Commander provides very good low speed operation, and presumably smooth operation throughout its range, with the 100 speed steps. I wonder if an AC Commander installed in place of the factory-installed TMCC unit in, say, a F-3, or a Geep, would be worth it with respect to improvements in operating characteristics.

IF the motors ran smoothly in the first place (i.e., well broken in, or early Postwar quality and not some of the recent Chinese imports); and ESPECIALLY if at least two motors are being controlled (i.e., dual-motor F-3s or two powered geeps MU'd together) I would rate them better than modern dual-motored diesels for realistic start-up and slow speed operation.

One of the Pullmor's' biggest limitations is only 3 power pulses per armature rotation (3-pole motor.)  BUT unlike their can-motored counterparts, Lionel's diesels have back drivable worms with a high lead angle.  So the two motors can "help" each other for a total of six power pulses, instead of fighting each other like the 5-pole motors in other twin diesels do.  Some recent Legacy units are the exception, but I've seen a lot of command-controlled diesels buck and jerk below 4 scale mph.

This video (by PCJ RailRide) gives you a good idea of what's possible when well-tuned Pullmor motors are operating under chopped-wave 18V TMCC control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...dtiFRCgfRQkM-dM7P92w

So if the conditions in my first paragraph apply, I would say yes it's worth it.  Note that John installed tethered brushes and capacitors for spark noise suppression.  These are probably mandatory to achieve reliable operation.  Great work John, thanks for sharing!!

breezinup posted:

Very nice. Sounds like these modifications will completely transform the character of the RDCs, and make them much more fun and interesting to run.

Of particular interest to me was that the AC Commander provides very good low speed operation, and presumably smooth operation throughout its range, with the 100 speed steps. I wonder if an AC Commander installed in place of the factory-installed TMCC unit in, say, a F-3, or a Geep, would be worth it with respect to improvements in operating characteristics. Obviously a matter of individual judgement, but would the improvement be significant enough to justify the cost?

When I was doing my two-motor upgrade of the Phantom, I replaced the LCRU with the AC Commander.  The difference in low speed performance was quite simply amazing.  I don't know if it's the 100 speed steps, or just better regulation on the driving voltage, but it really does change the operation for the better.  Since these are pretty light, and they won't be pulling anything else, even varying track voltage didn't seem to affect the speed all that much.  I was quite pleased with the performance.

Norton posted:

John, what sound set did you use? Back when Jon was starting out he had a Sound Commander for the RDCs along with a Buddy Commander cousin to the Beep Commander. Perfect for the single motored Williams RDC.  The RDC Sound Commander has a very nice two chime horn. You could also order a single chime. Keep an eye out for them in case they should pop up.

Pete, I gave the customer his choice, he picked the ERR C420 sound set.  I suggested that or the Alco PA, the only two that appear to be normally aspirated diesels, I figured those would be as close as we can get.  I actually looked for a RS4 board on Lionel that would be closer, but I found zilch.  I know about the Sound Commanders, I have a couple, but none of the RDC ones.  It's really not practical to sit on an upgrade for months, or more, hoping something like that will come along.

Ted Sowirka posted:

IF the motors ran smoothly in the first place (i.e., well broken in, or early Postwar quality and not some of the recent Chinese imports); and ESPECIALLY if at least two motors are being controlled (i.e., dual-motor F-3s or two powered geeps MU'd together) I would rate them better than modern dual-motored diesels for realistic start-up and slow speed operation.

Well, IMO now you're getting carried away! A modern Legacy dual-motored diesel will move out very smoothly and very slowly. It will also do so silently so that the sound set is all the sounds you hear.  FWIW, I suspect this was one of those cheap motors you complained about.

I did my first TMCC upgrade on an MPC, RDC.  The conversion used the parts from an early TMCC GP9, which seemed to have a particularly good set of sounds.  The used RDC ran well before the conversion and was noticeably improved by the addition.  With a little creativity it was possible to add markers along with directional lighting.  I never got around to adding interior lights as the originals got sacrificed during the electronics placement.  The compact ERR kit would certainly be a big improvement on my hack job.  Did you take advantage of the RDC's built in antenna?  In the PW RDC's it's like Lionel had a premonition of things to come in CC, yet dropped the ball by never offering it with TMCC.

Before

Bruce

I didn't use the "antenna", which I presume you're talking about the reflector.  I just stuck on one of the Lionel standard copper tape antenna wires, I have some handy.  You can see it at the edge of the motorized unit shell.

One of the harder things was getting the lights in, the windows and the light lenses are all one piece.  Since they riveted the end supports on, you can't take them out easily to cut off the light bars to the markers and headlights.  I do have the rivets and tool, but there's always a chance you slip and hack up the shell, so I'd rather work around that.  I had to Dremel the headlight light bar section off, and use some small cutters and an X-acto knife to hack away the plastic light pipe to the markers.  Then I hot glued in the marker and headlight LEDs, they're all externally exposed in the conveniently correctly sized holes.  The LED headlights are many times brighter than the old light pipe and bare bulb.  The interior lights with the lighting strips are nice and evenly lit.

A real reliability boost is accomplished by sharing the pickup rollers of the second car, the single set of pickup rollers on one truck are pretty closely spaced, I can see them stalling on switches and the like pretty easily.

New life for an old set.

brwebster   In the PW RDC's it's like Lionel had a premonition of things to come in CC, yet dropped the ball by never offering it with TMCC.

 

Bruce

 

Let me suggest Lionel should offer these traditional size units with Lionchief Plus which better compliments their other traditional sized offerings.

Pete