Lionel SP Daylight Engines Comparison?

I have all 3 of them, and they are great.

The 8307 has Sound of Steam and Whistle, the 18007 which is a Gs2, has first generation railsounds, and is almost identical to the 8307 with the exception of the shield rivets on the side and the front headlight cover. The lettering is also different on the tenders.

The 18071 has TMCC, Daylight Railsounds 4.0, and a heavy Diecast Tender. The drive wheels on this engine are different then the other 2.This engine is somewhat hard to find.

The 8307 pulls all 8 of my daylight aluminum passenger cars, along with the 18701 and my SP MPC F3's.  The 18007, I have pulling the Daylight Madison cars from 1992. For some reason, although identical to the MPC 8307, it struggles to pull the Aluminum cars. I had my 18007 updated to TMCC and daylight railsounds 4.0 and is a good runner, but seems to be the weakest of the 3. Pictured below is the 8307, 18007 and 18071 in order

Thanks Mark.  In some of the pictures I've seen of the 18007, it looks like the boiler front is gray, where the other two look like they are definitey silver.  Is the 18007 front gray?

Yes, its gray. The other 2 are silver. Try to get the 18071 first, the other 2 are always available on the internet auction sites...

Welcome Rick,

I have the 18071 and find the TMCC and Pullmor motor combo to be less than stellar.  I believe these have a notorious past for being problem childs.  If you like tinkering, you'll love the 18071.

  See how the cab to tender paintwork doesn't align?  Another original thumbs down that they all suffer.  I was able to shim up the rear of the loco shell with rubber grommets so the misalignment wasn't so pronounced but far from perfect. 

  On the plus side, when I last ran mine conventionally it seemed pretty much normal for a horizontal pullmor and was 031 friendly. 

Bruce

Thanks Guys.  

Color wise: Do all of them match the colors of the 1983 passenger cars?

Again, thanks for your info and comments.

Rick

I have the 8307 and 18007 and both run well,I currently have the 8307 on the for sale forum and it is like new,very smooth runner.

Mikey

Welcome to the Forum, Rick.

Welcome aboard Rick

I am looking at the older cars (1983) and engines, and don't want anything scale (too big for my layout). 

If you need something that can run on O-31 curves have you looked at the MTH Railking Daylight? 

It more closely resembles an actual SP 4-8-4, has spoked drivers, great sound, better speed control and will out pull anything based on a old post-war style mechanism.

You can still find either the 30-1620-1 Southern Pacific Lines...

or the later style 30-1621-1 Southern Pacific...

...in stores along with the matching 30-67759...

...30-67760...

...30-67761...

...and 30-67762 cars.

Thanks Ted.  

I don't know if I'm foolish, stubborn, or what . . . but, I'm stuck on Lionel.  I know Mike's makes phenomenal trains, but my brain is stuck on Lionel.

Mikey, thanks for the info on your train for sale.  I'm still learning and researching.  Unfortunately, I'm a researcher.

Welcome to the forum.

I'm curious to know how the drive wheels are different on the 18701 from the other two engines.

Lionel did a great job of matching the colors of these Daylight engines and the cars, despite the fact that some of them were produced quite few years apart. All the engines and the aluminum cars are an excellent match.

While the MTH engines are good ones, I've found that the Lionel Daylight colors are more accurate, and more vibrant. The Lionel Daylight aluminum cars are outstanding.

The 18071, in addition to having TMCC, Railsounds 4 and diecast tender, also has some other details added, including operating front marker lights and extra trim, including the silver striping on the pilot. However, the points made by Bruce have been echoed by others in the past, including that the striping between the engine and tender doesn't line up, and the engine seemed to require a fair amount of break-in time before it operated very smoothly.

Wise Choice!!! :-)

Same size, just different style.

Thanks Ted.  

 

I don't know if I'm foolish, stubborn, or what . . . but, I'm stuck on Lionel.  I know Mike's makes phenomenal trains, but my brain is stuck on Lionel.

 

 

 

Wise Choice!!! :-)

Ah yes!  I see the wisdom of poor speed control, poor sound, poor pulling power and poor smoke!  And in the 90s they could all be had at those inflated LTI prices.  Why have a scale model when you could have a rehashed 746 for about the same price or a Railking for half the money!

At least the 1990s prices for the postwar style trains have come back to reality.  That is good for Rick if he goes with brand L.

Rick

You should be able to take a test drive of one of the recent Railking Daylights at a hobby shop in Md or Del if not Virginia.  But don't do it unless you are willing to have a mind expanding experience. 

Living in the Pacific Northwest I have had several opportunities to see and hear SP 4449 in person.  The MTH locomotives make a very realistic impression.

This video lets you hear both the whistle and the air horn that are digital recordings from 4449.  You can also hear the station announcements. 

If you like smoke this video will give you an idea of what to expect.  If you are not a fan of smoke the locomotives do come with an off switch. 

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on the MTH PS-1 equipped version, 30-1119-1.  I've been very happy with MTH PS-1 locomotives.  The only reason I would pick a Lionel one is if I could get a semi scale GS-4 with Legacy.

Why? because I am Lionel all the way. I like the classics, \ I run TMCC, Speed control is fine for me, I tweaked my smoke unit for the output I like and NOTHING COMPARES TO RAILSOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Couldn't resist a peek at the MTH video.  No question there are noticeable running improvements over the 60 year old Lionel technology.

Sound?  Not so much.  There's no appreciable difference in the RS4 whistle/horn but heaven help the poor abused dog they left inside the car on a 95F day just to get that MTH chuff sound bite.

Bruce

Rick

as you can read there are likes and not for Lionel and MTH☺️☺️��. 

I have the Williams brass version with TMCC installed

Ted,

Thank you for posting the nice videos. I couldn't tell on the first video, but the locomotive in the second video appeared to have two chuffs per revolution. Is this correct?

Rick,

Welcome to the forum!

Just for reference, here is my Lionel GS-2 (6-11420), which I happen to really like (a bit dated video, and I have made several improvements since). It appears several times in the video besides the opening:

Alex

No problem.  Everyone has their personal preferences.  That's how all the manufacturers stay in business.  I am on several car forums and used to be on a saltwater reef tank forum.  The passion for what people like or dislike is the same.

The Williams/Bachmann traditional GS4 is another option, and a pretty good one for smaller layouts. This is not the scale brass version mentioned by Alan, but the smaller traditional version. It has a can motor, and therefore cruise control can be added. ERR TMCC would have to be added to allow command operation, but it's a smooth runner, and that would be a great engine. It's pretty much a dead ringer for the Lionel traditional versions mentioned by Rick, and the colors are a very good match for the Lionel cars.

NOTHING COMPARES TO RAILSOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark

I agree.  Every sound system available today is better than 1990s railsounds!!!!!!! 

I couldn't tell on the first video, but the locomotive in the second video appeared to have two chuffs per revolution. Is this correct?

Alex

In the first video the Daylight is set to 4 chuffs per revolution of the drive wheels.  In the second video the J and the Daylight are set to 2 chuffs.

All Protosound 2 and Protosound 3 steam locomotives, Rail King or Premier, use the motor tachometer to measure the wheel revolutions.  That gives the electronics the ability to measure scale speed, distance traveled and to trigger the chuff.  Since the system does not rely on a cam driven or magnetic switch to trigger the chuffs the chuff rate can be selected by the user.  Some operators select one or two chuffs per driver revolution if that sounds right to them.  Most guys these days select 4 chuffs, which is correct for a two cylinder locomotive like the Daylight or J.  

A three cylinder locomotive like the UP 4-12-2 has 6 chuffs.  A simple articulated like a Big Boy, Challenger  or SP cab forward has 8 chuffs per revolution, 4 each from the front and rear engine.  Protosound 2 and 3 do a very good job with simple articulateds.

There's no appreciable difference in the RS4 whistle/horn but heaven help the poor abused dog they left inside the car on a 95F day just to get that MTH chuff sound bite.

Hey Bruce

I'll certainly be happy to hear more dynamic team sounds from Proto3.  The hardware is there but only some sound files have received reengineered audio recordings.  Having an audiofile like Neal Young involved has definitely been a plus for Lionel.  However, 4449 often sounds more like the MTH version than the 1812 overture.  Here is typical stack talk at speed with less common use of the air horn at a grade crossing.

The Williams/Bachmann traditional GS4 is another option, and a pretty good one for smaller layouts. This is not the scale brass version mentioned by Alan, but the smaller traditional version. It has a can motor, and therefore cruise control can be added. ERR TMCC would have to be added to allow command operation, but it's a smooth runner, and that would be a great engine. It's pretty much a dead ringer for the Lionel traditional versions mentioned by Rick, and the colors are a very good match for the Lionel cars.

Rick

If you want a 746 derived look at a reasonable price with a more modern mechanism Breezinup has good advice.

This is not the scale brass version mentioned by Alan

interestingly I have the 10 Lionel passenger cars and the colors match the Williams just fine.

Thanks for all the info Guys.  

When I lived in upstate New York I set-up and ran the local club's portable layout at a few train shows in the 80's - early 90's.  One of the members brought his Daylight set for me so I could run it at a show and I instantly fell in love with it.   

Forward to today:

Once I learned all the differences I decided on the 8307 engine and went on to find a near mint 1983 set with 6 cars.  They are supposed to be flawless.  I will be running them on my layout, and it is amazing to be able to find "brand new" trains, 32 years later.

Thanks again for your help.

Rick

Sorry to be a bit off topic but can anyone please tell me if the Mars light operates on the imperial ps3 version? Thanks!

I know the feeling Rick, I just picked up all 8 SP Daylight aluminums from the 80's still in the boxes and never removed, along with the MPC N&W Powhatan Arrow Aluminum cars!!

Well . . .  those Mint cars had a lot of chips in the roofs.  The orange underneath the black paint stood out like a sore thumb.  So, back it went. 

Wow - That's great Rick! A blessing in disguise. Not everyone gets a second chance around here...

No doubt that Lionel has produced nice trains for well over 100 years. MTH is also a great company and likewise produces nice trains. Some of their trains are very close in quality and design but Lionel's trains from the last century for the most part are nice toys from a bygone era (and that's OK). You've been given some good advice from Mr Hikel above and many of us here would strongly encourage you to at least give the Rail King steamers a try. You can run them with a Lionel ZW and they will perform great. They also have onboard command control with a very smooth cruise control and sophisticated sound system. As noted above you can select the number of chuffs per revolution ( even new Lionel doesn't give you that option) and adjust much of the sound set. You can even download a completely different sound set if you'd like.

As nice as the old Lionel aluminum cars are MTH Rail King 16" cars are much better detailed and realistic looking. They have overhead lighting and full interiors. They usually will roll better.

Fortunately the choices are many and varied in this wonderful hobby so you can pretty much get anything you want.

 I would personally like to welcome you to this wonderful forum and hope your experience here is a good one. Please realize that my initial comments are to be taken as "tongue in cheek" 

Okay.  The temptation has gotten to me and I am about to tip my toe in unholy water . . .

I have all ZW's.  No electronic controls.  To run a MTH engine:

I would be mainly interested in having;

1. The chuff/puffs of smoke.

2. The realistic chuff sound that goes with it.

3. The multi-tone whistle ability.

4. The bell.

Can I have those four things without having to add a lot of electronics?