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March 25, 2012 12:24 PM

My local dealer said that when the girl from Horizon called him last week about these sneak preview items she said that they were very limited.

 

 
 
 
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March 25, 2012 1:52 PM

For those worried about reissues adversely affecting the value of current models - not to worry. Lionel has taken care of that by making only a relative handful of the reissues.

 

Those wanting a Southern Crescent in the future, for example, will look to the older model, because the newer version won't be found. (Conversely, of course, the newer model could have relatively greater value than it otherwise would.)

 

Sort of kidding, but actually there may be some truth to this. (And coming from me, that's a rarity.)

 
 
 
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March 25, 2012 3:56 PM

I guess my feeling about it the actual product and the catalog picture are two different items. The Catalog picture shows the the picture of the Ps-4 from the 2003 limited edition set with green pilot and driver wheels. The roof was painted green even in the 2005 catalog that was described as being prototypical.

There was nothing in the new catalog saying the roof was going to be painted.

I will say this if Lionel where to release one more Ps-4 I would hope they visit 1401 in Washington D.C. and release that locomotive as the finial run.

 

S.R.Sean SOUTHERN GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS

 
 
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March 25, 2012 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Southern Railway Sean:

I will say this if Lionel where to release one more Ps-4 I would hope they visit 1401 in Washington D.C. and release that locomotive as the finial run.

Given that Lionel released the 1403 in 2006 (cataloged then), which is exactly the same engine as 1401 and has correct prototypical paint, it may be unlikely that they will do 1401 any time soon. It's maybe a little surprising they numbered the engine 1403 and not 1401.

 
 
 
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March 25, 2012 4:20 PM

Ben your mods look great, the touches of red really turned out great.

 
 
 
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March 25, 2012 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by breezinup:
Originally Posted by bob2:

Just an opinion - I prefer oxide red cab roofs and tender decks.  

 

A possible solution is a quick repaint of the offending surface?

 

I am glad 3-rail collectors are getting picky about prototypical accuracy.  


Of course, Bob, the red you have on your custom-painted engine is like the much more subtle Pennsy shade, oxide red and closer to maroon, not at all like the bright orange/red used on this Southern Crescent PS-4. It's a much different look. Whether it improves anything is up to the beholder, naturally.

 

 
Last edited by breezinup March 25, 2012 4:42 PM
 
 
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March 25, 2012 5:38 PM

Prototypical accuracy is not something I care about, but realistic looking detail is.  The current Lionel has that look, whether true to the original or not.

 

 I notice the photo of the loco in the message above, which I guess from the context of that message must be prototypcal, lacks all the piping and equipment in the front 1/3rd of the Lionel model - that equipment is why I like it so much actually.  

 

 

"If no one as ever done it that way, it might be fun to try."

 

Book: 'Streets for O-Gauge Model Railroads now available from Amazon.com

or download free from my website: www.hleewillis.com

 
 
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March 25, 2012 6:08 PM

Lee

The Ps-4 pictured above looks very much like my 1990 Williams brass Ps-4 which has very little piping on the boiler or smokebox. Prototypes vary---Pegram Shops covered some of their Ps-4 sand dome piping with a shroud.  I can't make out the road number on Bob2's engine---mine carries 1401.

A rust red tender deck was prototypical on both Southern passenger and freight engines according to a long ago article in SRHA's TIES Magazine.

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

 
 
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March 25, 2012 7:53 PM

I believe that picture is a Ts Class 4-8-2 it's hard to make out the numbers but Lionel did a Southern Railway version of the USRA Light Mountains which the Southern did rosters and used as their main passenger power on the Piedmont division before the Ps-4 where placed into service. I think the Lionel Southern Road number was 1491 and sported a red roof not the accurate Black or Green roof.

 

S.R.Sean SOUTHERN GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS

 
 
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March 25, 2012 9:12 PM

Actually the Mountain type has no prototype.  The boiler is bronze sand cast, and the rest is just parts from elsewhere.  As far as I can tell, Southern had no oil burners.  I put oxide red on cab roofs of most of my locomotives..

 

I have the skill to put as much detail as I want on my models, and often stop short of full and accurate detail. The Elesco feed water heater is what demands all those pipes on the PS-4.  My point was if you get to the point where a cab roof color is the make or break decision point, you are getting close to demanding accurate models in size and configuration - and I regard that as a good thing.

 
 
 
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March 25, 2012 9:20 PM

You're right Sean obviously--that  is a 4-8-2. Not very observant of me!

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

 
 
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March 26, 2012 9:40 AM

I seriously doubt Lionel, MTH or any other manufacturer will ever accurately create a model of the 1401 as it appears in the Smithsonian. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the running boards and valve ladders show the modifications made at Spencer Shops during the 1940s. This would require a manufacturer to completely alter their Ps-4 model just for a Southern prototype. The closest you could get is an accurately painted version of the 1401 with red tender deck and green roof. 
 
For those who think dealing with incorrect details is only in O gauge, look at the HO market. Manufacturers use standard plans for steam locomotives for several different road names, especially if based on a USRA design. Athearn Genesis and Broadway are two names that quickly come to mind. They may get the cab roof right, but miss on other Southern specific (or other road name) details.
 
Although I may not be able to afford many of the latest scale locomotive offerings from Lionel or MTH, I applaud their efforts to listen to the O gauge community and make them as accurate as feasibly possible. This movement toward scale realism has also made it way into the freight and passenger cars, which I can acquire. The more we as a group demonstrate through preorders our approval or disappointment with certain models, the greater chance the manufacturers will build what we want in road name or detail.
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Southern Railway Sean:

I guess my feeling about it the actual product and the catalog picture are two different items. The Catalog picture shows the the picture of the Ps-4 from the 2003 limited edition set with green pilot and driver wheels. The roof was painted green even in the 2005 catalog that was described as being prototypical.

There was nothing in the new catalog saying the roof was going to be painted.

I will say this if Lionel where to release one more Ps-4 I would hope they visit 1401 in Washington D.C. and release that locomotive as the finial run.

 

Larry Neal TCA, LCCA Fan of the ACL, SAL, SOU, Clinchfield

 
 
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March 26, 2012 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Zett:

Ben your mods look great, the touches of red really turned out great.


Thanks Zett! It's not much, but it adds a little something extra

 

I painted the cab roof of my Lionel Ts Class 4-8-2 mountain black this weekend. Stay tuned for pictures coming soon!

 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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March 26, 2012 11:51 AM

What color was the tender deck of the Ts Class 4-8-2 Mountains?

 

 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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March 26, 2012 1:02 PM

Ben,

The tender deck on the Ts-1 where rust red or oxide red.

You can find alot of information on the HOSAM web link :

http://www.hosam.com/srr/srr.html

 

S.R.Sean SOUTHERN GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS

 
 
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March 26, 2012 4:44 PM

Thought I would post this image taken by Shelby Lowe at Spencer Shops in the late 40s. Note the difference between the 4-6-2 Pacific (MTH had this version in their last catalog) and the freight locomotive. Tender deck on freight is red, but highly coasted with coal dust. Used the B&W version of this shot in my book on Spencer Shops last year. Cool, isn't it?

 

Picture1

 

Larry Neal TCA, LCCA Fan of the ACL, SAL, SOU, Clinchfield

 
 
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Picture1
 
 
 
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March 26, 2012 6:11 PM

Great photo, thanks Larry.

Ms-4 #4876 is the model we keep begging one of the Importers to produce for the market. A USRA Heavy Mikado is sorely missing from the O-gauge hobby except for  those handmade by Harry Heike, Joe Scales and a very few others. Southern Railways' mainline freight locomotive for 30 years, 1923--53.

 

Note the Ps-4s black marker lignts and "stepped" ruinning boards. As Southern's steam power was being upfitted for the WWII years those running boards became straight on most Ps-4s.

 

Definetely a pair of Aces Larry!

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

 
 
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March 26, 2012 7:50 PM

Just for comparison, here are some pictures of Lionel's PS-4 No. 1403 from 2006, identical model to the 1401 in the Smithsonian. (You have to click on each photo to get the true picture, remember).

 

 

Southern PS-4 031

Southern PS-4 002

Southern PS-4 003

Southern PS-4 013

Southern PS-4 015

Southern PS-4 016

Southern PS-4 018

Southern PS-4 026

Southern PS-4 028

 
 
 
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March 26, 2012 9:53 PM

Looking at Ben's modification to his Ps-4 he hit the nail on the head.

Note the white stripe on the pilot and look at the Photo Larry posted.

 

S.R.Sean SOUTHERN GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS

 
 
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March 26, 2012 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Lafondue:

Lionel just posted an instructional video of this engine in the blue comet scheme...good video but could they please do it in full frame/ screen and also HD...

 

The SC video is up too(12:52 EDT today):

 

 

Rob

 
 
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March 26, 2012 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Southern Railway Sean:

Looking at Ben's modification to his Ps-4 he hit the nail on the head.

Note the white stripe on the pilot and look at the Photo Larry posted.

 


 

That white pilot stripe looks nice - maybe I'll have to add that to mine. It must have driven Southern detail crews nuts trying to keep the paint white in that location! In fact, it may not have been used very long before it was removed. Note that No. 1401 in the Smithsonian has no such white stripe on the pilot.

 
 
 
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March 26, 2012 10:40 PM

Shelby Lowe,the photographer of Larry Neal's photo, posted above, was also the co-author of "Southern Steam Power" with Harold Ranks. Along with "Southern Railway Systems" by Richard Prince, the two books are the "bibles" of Southern Railway Steam Engines. Both were published in the 1960s and are out of print, although in recent years "Southern Steam Power" has had a paperback reprint.

 

I bought both hardback books at a NYC used book loft on 45th Street during the early 1970s.

 

Larry's photographed Locomotives, both passenger and freight, are "crowned" with the Elesco Feedwater Heater astride the smokebox brow. This unit caused many rail fans, and seemingly all photgraphers, to consider the Elesco an attractive viewing feature of many Ps-4s and Ms-4s. The Ms-4 freight Locomotive pictured is also equipped with a Brakeman's  "Shanty", or "Doghouse", on the Tender.

 

Harold Ranks and Shelby Lowe did an entire chapter on "Decorated Engines". Southern Master Mechanics were given great leeway in how they painted, trimmed and decorated their engines. Engineers took it a step further by adding bull horns, eagles, flags, Shriners and Masons emblems, placed in front and on the rear of the tender. To settle an argument on a particular Southern engine's livery, one has to pick a particular road number, on a particular date and from a particular shop, operated by a particular engineer.

 

For me, I am comfortable with Lionel #1403 and #1396 and MTH #1401[Proto 1.0] and #1396[TMCC]. My 1990 Williams #1401 [conv.]needs "treatment"! I am often tempted to repaint and redecorate it as an AGS "Queen and Crescent", but old age awareness takes over and I procrastinate.

 

Ben has the right idea, make your own comfort.

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

Last edited by Dewey Trogdon March 26, 2012 11:13 PM
 
 
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March 27, 2012 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dewey Trogdon:

 I am often tempted to repaint and redecorate it as an AGS "Queen and Crescent", but old age awareness takes over and I procrastinate.

 

In my case, old age lack of awareness takes over and I forget.
 
 
 
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March 27, 2012 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by breezinup:
Originally Posted by Southern Railway Sean:

Looking at Ben's modification to his Ps-4 he hit the nail on the head.

Note the white stripe on the pilot and look at the Photo Larry posted.

 


 

That white pilot stripe looks nice - maybe I'll have to add that to mine. It must have driven Southern detail crews nuts trying to keep the paint white in that location! In fact, it may not have been used very long before it was removed. Note that No. 1401 in the Smithsonian has no such white stripe on the pilot.

nmah_train

 

Actually 1401 does have a white stripe on the pilot! 

 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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March 27, 2012 12:56 AM

That's just a reflection, not a white stripe. You can see a similar reflection on the side of the pilot, too. The 1401 didn't have a white stripe.

 
 
 
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March 27, 2012 1:20 AM

Originally Posted by breezinup:

That's just a reflection, not a white stripe. You can see a similar reflection on the side of the pilot, too. The 1401 didn't have a white stripe.

3292058304_1fa056b8dc_b

33164416

 

I will still argue that 1401 does in fact have a white stripe on the pilot, and it is not just a reflection.

 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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March 27, 2012 2:07 AM

 

You can argue it if you like, but you'd still be wrong.    Here's a photo of the 1401 when it was on "active duty."  No stripe.

 

 

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Charlotte, VA
Date: July 1933
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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March 27, 2012 8:41 AM

Well, to keep this debate going I have found another original color photo of a Ps-4 in operation. This is the 1397, photographed by Leonard W. Rice at Washington, DC on February 14, 1950. Photo is from a Vanishing Vistas large postcard published in 1987. This shows how the Ps-4s looked in daily service, for those who like to weather and detail their locomotives. 

 

Some observations: black class lights, black Elesco Feedwater heater and piping, high running boards and ladders, and look closely at the color of the striping. It doesn't look white to me, but imitation aluminum! It is clearly not bright white as on the 1401 or Lionel/MTH models.

 

As for the 1401, that photo was used in Prince's book on the Southern. That is an early shot, before the modifications made at Spencer Shops during the 1940s. Note the as-built running boards and ladders and different style pilot. It also has a strange decoration between the bell and headlight. I have other color views (thanks to the old Vanishing Vistas large postcard series) and the white stripe is definitely there on the pilots by the 1940s. 

 

Suffice it to say, Southern changed the Ps-4s regularly from the 1920s to 1950s, when they were retired. As modelers, we either leave the locomotives as is from the factory or modify based on a specific photograph or year of operation. Personally, I will find a Lionel 11103 and tweak it some to make a good representation of a 1940s - 1950s Ps-4 based at Spencer Shops. 

Southern Ps-4 1397 Ivy City 19500001

 

Larry Neal TCA, LCCA Fan of the ACL, SAL, SOU, Clinchfield

 
 
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March 27, 2012 9:33 AM

 

And yet here we can see 1401 after 1933, in active duty, clearly with a white stripe.

 

photo-48

 

 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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March 27, 2012 10:41 AM

Keep in mind that 1401 was reassigned to Spencer Shops from Pegram Shops in 1945 and was likely "Spencerized". Quoting Spencer's white trim scheme: "sides of running boards,platform under smokebox, bottom edge of pilot, and tires of wheels [or in some cases aluminum, not white]. Wheel centers were not painted white at Spencer."

.....from TIES Engine Spotting features.

 

I expect we are viewing #1401 at different dates as decorated and trimed by two different Shops. Additionally, a third Shop, Alexandria Shops at D.C., did the final dress up of #1401 for its Smithsonian debut---not Spencer Shops. The conventional wisdom at Spencer was that #1393 was earmarked for display at the Smithsonian since she had been one of the Harrision Crescent Limited engines. In 1953 Spencer had cleaned painted and mothballed #1393 for that purpose and for static display on the Shops grounds temporarily in connection with a Rowan County Centennial celebration.

 

However, "officials" in Washington had chosen otherwise and picked #1401. The story that #1401 was selected because she was the only lead Locomotive pulling President Roosevelt's funeral train to be decorated with an American flag [the train was pulled from Warm Springs Georgia to Washington by double-headed Ps-4s, two from each Division on the Eastern Lines route--Atlanta Division, Greenville, Charlotte, Danville, etc.]. Interestingly, at one time The Smithsonian showed a copy of the Army Signal Corps aerial color photos of the Funeral Train and all the various PS-4s at the head end---nary a red cab roof!

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

 
 
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March 27, 2012 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Larry Neal:

Some observations:  black Elesco Feedwater heater and piping.....and look closely at the color of the striping. It doesn't look white to me, but imitation aluminum!


I don't think the Feedwater heater is necessarily black, among other things. It's just the shading of an old, reproduced photo. Looking at photos, it's often difficult to tell colors because of the lighting on the subject, and the resulting shading. With photography, it's all about light. You have to be careful judging colors, or even if something is colored at all, from photographs.

 

And as we all know, this is also true when we view things with our own eyes. Among other things, colors with shading on them often look black.

 

A model train example is the well-known history of the black Santa Fe warbonnet F-3. It originated with an individual at Lionel illustrating a photo he had of the real F-3s, and in the particular photo he was looking at, the lighting was such that the stainless steel sides of the engines looked black.

 
Last edited by breezinup March 27, 2012 10:52 AM
 
 
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March 27, 2012 11:03 AM

Reflecting Dewey's comments above, looking at various photos of Southern steam engines, there was a lot of variation among them with respect to the white pilot stripe. Some had them, some didn't. Even among sequentially number locos, there was variation. Given Dewey's information on variations on shop preferences, things were every which way.

 

Here's the 1396, with a stripe;

 



 

And here's the 1397, with no stripe:

 

Southern Steam #1397
Location: Washington DC
Date: April 1948
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"



 
 
 
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March 27, 2012 11:19 AM

 

From Engine Spotters Guide.

True of most Ps-4 engines after 1940:

"the typical Ps-4 was painted with standard smokebox paint, normally a medium gray. All of the jewelery around the smokebox----valve ladders, headlight, markers, hinges, pilot, Elesco feedwater heater and piping,bell bracket, handrails, were painted engine black".

 

"the cylinder head covers were not chrome plated or painted-----they were 'tinned' with babbitt alloy,a soft alloy of tin, copper and antimony and the effect was striking if the engine wipers kept the covers clean". [a lot of babbitt alloy around the Shops, it was used to reduce friction on bearings].

 

"all alumium and gold leaf paint had been changed to imitation shades to better withstand the acid wash bath at the wash pit".

 

"never say never about a Southern Locomotive's paint, trim and decoration". Good advice!

 

The only Southern Railway Ps-4 I have ever seen was the #1401 in the Transportation Wing during a couple of visits in the early 1980s. I don't recall all the specific trim and decoration but I do remember that it was an impressive experience. [My cousin worked there and I tried to get photos but she was afraid of being fired if caught].

 

When I rode the Crescent Greensboro to New Orleans in July 1949 to connect with the Southern Pacific for San Diego and boot camp, I remember that cab style diesels took us to Atlanta--probably E6s or 7s, then Ls class steam to Montgomery and diesels again for weight restrictions on the rickety trestles into New Orleans.

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

Last edited by Dewey Trogdon March 27, 2012 11:39 AM
 
 
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March 27, 2012 1:04 PM

Another variation - here's the 1393, but without the Crescent lettering (post-Crescent decor period, apparently).  

Southern Steam #1393
Location: Charlotte, NC
Date: June 1938
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

 

 

And here's the 1396, but note that it has a brakeman's stand on the tender. (Also note the date - it would have been a good time to unload your stock.)

 

Southern Steam #1396
Location: Washington DC
Date: June 1929
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"





 
Last edited by breezinup March 27, 2012 1:19 PM
 
 
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March 27, 2012 2:13 PM

I've noticed on 1401 from the 1933 photo she sported two candlesticks flag holders on the headlight and I've never been able to id the object that's above the headlight mounted to the smokebox. Also she has an extended pilot and a different numberboard during this time.

 

Ben,

Where did you get the part for the thumbnail visor and did you use caboose red for the painting the inside of the visor and bell?

I'm thinking about doing the same mods you did to your #1403 that I want to do for mines. 

 

S.R.Sean SOUTHERN GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS

 
 
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March 27, 2012 2:25 PM

Sean- I didn't add the visor, the model already comes with one. Maybe the angle of my pic makes it look longer. And as for the red I used, it's pretty much caboose red. I just had a jar of red I mixed up that I had left over from painting some detail parts on some NC&St.L locomotives. Happy painting! My next detail project will be to add the power cords from the headlamp and the marker lights.
 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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March 27, 2012 2:28 PM

Sean

If you are talking about the wedge-shaped feature above the headlight, that was said to be an experimental train indicator number board. It is visible on a photo of 1401 sitting in Charlotte July 1933 with the Piedmont Limited in tow.

 

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

 
 
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March 27, 2012 3:35 PM

I see the visor now Ben I was thinking that the visor wasn't on the locomotive but it is.

I'm going to paint the inside visor and bell on both of my lionel Ps-4

 

Dewey,

I assume if 1401 was power for train 38 then 38 would be displayed in the numberboard.

Glad that didn't stick around long because that really killed the look of the Ps-4.

 

S.R.Sean SOUTHERN GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS

 
 
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March 27, 2012 9:07 PM

Another variation, mentioned by Dewey previously - the Queen and Crescent.

 

 
 
 
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March 27, 2012 9:26 PM

I've just acquired my 4th Lionel Ps-4, 3 of the 2006 version and 1 of the 2003 Crescents. So I need to add some distinction between my 3 from 2006, I don't care if they all have the same cab number, you can hardly tell from far away. I thought about giving one of them a black roof. Did any Ps-4 have a black cab roof?
 
-Ben Nance
 
 
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