Lionel's "new" Southern Crescent Limited

I think Southern's new model of 4501 is modeling the excursion scheme that she wore from the mid-60's to the mid 90's.  She had a red roof during that time.  It will be interesting to see when the '01 emerges from the shop later this year what color she is.

Mr Nance, I asked this question about the Southern and did not get a response.  A few years ago, Lionel had a Southern steamer that ran on O54 curves.  Is this new one different from the old one aside from the fact that it will run on O36?  I, too, am a fan of the 1401 in the Smithsonian.

Oh I agree completely. And I'm sure Lionel knows they can sell more mikados if they paint them is green opposed to black, because that's what's more memorable then one thinks of Southern Railway steam engines.

I don't expect Lionel to be historically accurate when it comes to their models. I look to companies like weaver and 3rd-Rail for those kind of products. I think that Weaver's streamlined Ps-4 was an excellent model.

Anybody else question Lionel's depiction of what shade of green Southern used? That color they use now, is not Virginia Green. Lionel's shade of green is to dark I think.

I currently have 13 Southern locomotives (some steam and some diesel) and green is fine with me. 

If the new model does indeed run on O36, one of them may find a place on my roster.

I should get mine this afternoon or tomorrow.  I will try it on 0-36 and o-48 but I think its rated for 0-54, though.  

It depends which Southern Ry Mike that Lionel wants to model. The correct ORIGINAL color of an MS-4 Southern Mike should indeed be black. However, when Paul Merriman purchased the #12 (originally SRR #4501) from the Kentucky & Tennessee, and took her the TVRM, in order to run excursions on the SRR, Master Mechanic, Steam Mr. Bill Purdy painter #4501 Southern Ry GREEN. Thus, Lionel could offer their  2-8-2 model both ways, i.e black or green and it would be correct.

Also, SRR #4501 (NOT 1401, which is a PS-4) is currently not painted ANY color (other than protective primer), since she is under complete overhaul in the TVRM shops.

Sorry, I caught my error, regarding the cab number of the Sou. mikado vs. the Sou. Ps-4.

Ben

Southern changed over to Sylvan Green from Virginia Green during the early 1930s. I forget the exact year but sometime when browsing my TIES Magazine Library I will search for the article. Also, during early WWII Southern changed from Real Aluminuim paint to Imitation Aluminium [which is actually a gray as described with its paint number] two reasons: [1]real aluminuim "went to war" and , [2] the acid wash at the Yard's locomotive/car washers soon destroyed the real aluminuim finish.

Info that will cause you to sleep sounder I'm sure.

As regards 4501 we are lucky to have 3 paint options enabling us to spend more money:[1]the green fan-trip engine, [2]the K&T #12 in coal dust black and,[3] the standard Southern Railway freight workhorse black engine paint/ trim scheme with the red tender deck and graphite smokebox and firebox.

I would like to see this Legacy PS-4 engine come out in post-WWII colors.  Lionel's 2006 model of this engine in post war colors was nice, but it did not have Legacy.

Well if you model prior to Southern selling 4501 to the K&T, then I still say MTH did a far better job with the model.

Ben

#4762 was an early Ms-1 Class as opposed to #4501 which, as you know, was a Ms Class and Southern's first Mikado. The Ms-1 was was a standard USRA light design Mikado brought to the Southern just after WWI.  However, even as a "light" Mikado, the Ms-1 is 20,000 lbs heavier and has 3,000 lbs more tractive force than the earlier Ms Class. # 4762 was built at the Schenectady Works and its Class of Locomotive spent most of its work time on the Eastern Lines in the rolling Piedmont area of North and South Carolina and Georgia---Charlotte, Spartanburg, Columbia, Savannah and, a few toiled on the Western Lines----Memphis Chatanooga.

Mine arrived an hour ago.  I'll post a short review separately.

Video Lee???!!!

It's a beautiful model! That red roof is a bit of a surprise, as are those white running boards.

I too wish Lionel or MTH would look at schemes other than the original Crescent Limited of 1927 - 1934. Southern Railway dropped the two toned passenger cars and train name on the tender after 1934 due to the Depression for cost saving reasons. 

I would like to obtain a Ps-4 someday, but for now I am satisfied with my 1992 Lionel 4501. Having a nice set of Southern heavyweight passenger cars in solid Pullman green with either the early serif-ed or postwar block style lettering should be a good seller to railroaders in the south. 

Lionel just posted an instructional video of this engine in the blue comet scheme...good video but could they please do it in full frame/ screen and also HD...

Are you guys gonna weather those pretty Pacifics.

The red roof is incorrect but it is still a beautiful engine. Both Mike Wolf and his brother-in-law Mark Hipp knew that in 1992. I am suprised that Lionel reverted to the red roof after getting both their earlier #1396 and #1403 correct.

I did early paint and trim research on the Spencer Shops numbered Ps-4s [and the PAs] for MTH and finally came to realize that they felt a red roof marketed much better than green.

Admittedly, market size was not a small risk for an infant company just starting out with scarce capital. But I suggested that they ride over to D. C. and visit the Green-roofed #1401 in the Smithsonian, but it still didn't change their druthers. However, to his credit, Mike shipped my #1396 Crescent Limited Proto 1.0/QSI with a green cab roof--marked in big black letters on the outer carton "green roof".

The SHRHA and TIEs Magazine's various Editors and Writers have over the years researched the Ps-4 paint schemes and concluded in their 5-issue series on the Ps-4s that a red cab roof was a rairity and did not occur on the Spencer and /or Pegram Shops engine numbers modeled by MTH and Lionel. [The G Scale Aristocraft Crescent Limited is painted correctly].

The research explaining the "red roof syndrome" that seemed have the most weight relates to an event on Erlanger Hill south of Cincinnati on Southern's CNO&TP, which was a favorite photo op for the rail press when the "Those Aristocratic Harrison Pacifics" first hit the rails and, as it turned out right from the Builders, a Ps-4 with a red cab roof was photgraphed. However, a Western Lines writer and photographer reported that when first shopped at Ferguson it was changed to match the fleet. Photo Journalists such as Ben Roberts who prowled the Southern's Eastern, Central and Western Lines extensively wrote that he never saw a red cab-roofed Ps-4 although he discovered one with flat black on AGS.

Western lines Painter Jim Jordan's rendition of the gorgeous #6689 Queen & Crescent sitting in Birmingham on the AGS is all Green'n Gold including the Green roof. The flyer attached to the rear of my copy emphasized the extent of Jordan's research to get the paint shade and decoration of both the locomotive and the non-matching passenger Cars correct. The Cars coupled are the "dull" Pullman Green with AGS markings as opposed to the Sylvan shade so often depicted in paintings and on models of the Southern.

Then, there are those Lionel red-roofed Southern Asheville Division Ts-1 Mountain Class[those"Magnificient Mountains"] that were shopped at Spencer. Lionel received color photos and historical data regarding the flat black cab roofs. The Assistant to the then President responded via letter, " thanks we have filed the information".

In the long run none of this is worth "spit" but it is the record for those interested in pursuing it.

Here is a picture of one of my Lionel Ps-4's, with a few paint modifications I did.

1. The inside of the bell has been painted red.

2. The underside of the headlamp shade has been painted red.

3. A white stripe has been added to the bottom of the pilot.

I love this model very much. The only big issue I have with it is that those aren't the correct running boards for 1403. Also Lionel, can we please get some break hose details on the front pilot, thanks!

I was sitting here thinking about getting the new Ps-4 when I noticed in the catalog the number was going to be 1393. So I said great a new road that will match my Crescent Limited Set from 2003. Then I just saw the pictures and was shocked to see Lionel painted the roof wrong!!!! What where they thinking and why!! It still a good looking locomotive but what gives with the incorrect painted roof. I have 3 Ps-4 on my roster and a K-Line scale light pacific in black lettered and stripe for the 1st Crescent Limited. There's only one other road number that I would acquire into my collection and that would be Ps-4 #1401 which I hope someone will produce and paint a correct version. 

Glad to hear that you think the same thing I thought Sean! Also I've noticed on Lionel's latest Ps-4 that the drivers, the pilot, and the handrails are not longer painted green, as they were on the 2003 model. I found the green drivers, pilot, and handrails to be very ascetically pleasing, thou they were perhaps not prototypical.

I was doing some research, and in Curt Tillotson, Jr.'s book Southern Railway Steam Trains Volume 1 - Passenger, there is not one photo of 1393. So it's hard to find what other inaccuracies might be lurking on Lionel's latest Ps-4.

Looks like from the comments and pictures posted that there are some significant color differences between the old Crescent and the new version.

The 2003 Crescent had its drivers and front truck wheels painted green, and the pilot, matching the shell. The new Crescent has all those wheels painted black, as well as the pilot. That's different from the catalog picture, incidently. As a note, the 2006 PS-4 also has black wheels and pilot, prototypical for that engine.

Also, as noted above, the roof on the 2003 Crescent is the correct green; on the new Crescent it is red. On the 2006 PS-4, the roof is also green.

It has also been reported that the new Crescent has a satin finish with sheen. Not sure about the 2003 Crescent, though I've never heard anyone comment on such a finish. My 2006 PS-4 has a flatter finish, not real flat, but no real sheen is evident. I haven't sat any of the engines side-by-side, however. One other difference is that the 2006 PS-4 has a brakeman's stand on the deck of the tender, which the Crescents don't have.

Looks like Lionel is still changing a few things between original versions and "re-issues," like they always did in "the old days." It'll be interesting to see if the Alton and Comet will have changes from the originals as well.

Worth a lot more than spit to me, Dewey. Thanks for taking the time to post this information - I found it very interesting.

Harrison Ps-4s 1393,1394,1401,1402 and 1403 were all Pegram Shops Engines, Pegram,in Atlanta, was previously known as "South Shops"--Southern Master Mechanic Bill Purdie's Shop. As most everyone knows, Bill, in later years became "Master Mechanic Steam" for all Southern Railway Steam Specials under SRR President Claytor.

All three of the above engines plus some others were reassigned to Spencer Shops in 1945-'47-'49. Initially Spencer had Harrison engines 1395,1396,1397,1398,1399,1400 and 1404. Eventually, postwar, Spencer got all of the Ps-4s including CNO&TP and AGS Engines. Postwar the major Shops were being converted to serve stinking diesels and Southern clustered the Ps-4s at Spencer.

The other two Shops, of the only four Shops on Southern Railway that stabled the Harrison Pacifics, were Finley in Birmingham and Ferguson in Somerset Kentucky.

Ferguson [CNO&TP] had 7 Harrison Ps-4s: 6476,6477,6478,6479,6480,6481 and 6482.

Finley Shops[AGS] had 4 Harrison Ps-4s: 6688, 6689,6690 and 6691.

According to one of the "Spotters's Guides", Spencer is the only Shop that did not elect to paint its wheel centers white or aluminium.

Here's a later shot of 1393 in my hometown

http://southern.railfan.net/im...1393charlotte638.jpg

Note the striping and the butterfly handrails.

Read the book (Locomotive 4501) by David Morgan for the history of 4501.  It is excellent.  Bill Purdie was not involved in the beginning.  The decision to paint her in the passenger colors was probably made by Graham Claytor and Paul Merrimon.

4501 is indeed a class Ms, the first Mike on the Southern.

George Lasley

I have the 6-31713 Crescent Ltd Set from 2004.  I am on the fence as to whether I should purchase the new iteration and sell the other. 

We need to be reminded that there were only 4 Crescent Limited Engines. The four operated only on the Eastern lines between Atlanta and Washington. Two northbound and two southbound with the engine change both directions at Spencer. These 4 engines were shopped out of Pegram Atlanta and Spencer in North Carolina.

There were only 3 Queen & Crescent Engines. They operated from Chatanooga to Meridian and only occasionally ventured north of Chatanooga. These 3 engines were primarily shopped out of Finley in Birmingham.

These 7 engines, all "Harrison Engines", were the stars of the Southern Railway Advertisement and Promotion Department and targeted by photographers for a period of time after 1926 until the very early 1930s. The Crescent Limited engines modeled---1393,1396 and Harrison 1403 have also been a prime target for production by the O-gauge Importers while the Queen & Crescent versions have been generally ignored. Ps-4 1401 as produced in scale by Williams in brass and MTH in diecast were not Crescent Limited engines. [K-line also produced a nice semi-scale version of the Ps-4].

These 7 engines were each uniquely equipped as regards their details and appliances depending on the shop that maintained them. For example Spencer was noted for its long "Fingernail Visor" on the headlight while Pegram had a shorter flatter visor.  The Queen & Crescent engines wore no visor until changed at Spencer in later years. Pegram Shops liked to operate its bells with rods while Spencer and others used a cord. Some had their whistle tilted forward a 45 degrees some at 25 degrees and so on and so forth.

Most of the models are painted and trimmed for what I call "marketability". That includes the "red roof syndrome" which if you believe the historical records, film and microfilm purchased and documented by the SRHA---is incorrect! In addition, according to "Spotters Guides", much the green trim on models is incorrect, for example marker lights were black, Elesco Feedwater Heaters and most pilots were painted black. And, as Larry Neal has noted, after the early 1930s the "Limited" decoration on engines and railcars was gradually eliminated as the 7 engines were shoped for routine maintenance.

WWII brought about a massive rehab and upgrade program in the Shops of Southern steam much of which had been rusting on "dead tracks" during the Great Depression of the '30s. Southern didn't have the capital to buy more diesels in 1940-41 and then in 1942 the War Department severely rationed new engine purchases in favor of Tanks and Planes.

So I guess my point is that, although the Importers have taken liberties with their decoration of the modeled Limited Engines, they are generally very attractive. And, perhaps there is some justification in that the real 1393, 1396 and 1403 were all individually different to some degree in their details and decoration.

It seems to me that, unless a person doesn't own one at all, $$ and a personal desire for the Legacy innards and new operating system is the key element as to whether one buys a new Southern Crescent Limited Ps-4. Not the slightly different decoration or minor change in details reaching from the Williams Ps-4 in 1990 until the Lionel in 2012. But of course I am an admitted, obsolete old phart!

Crescent Limited Locomotives :

1393, 1394 , 1395 and 1396

Queen & Crescent Limited Locomotives:

6688, 6689 and 6690

Note that all of them where Alco Richmond works built and mated to 12wheel 14k tender.

The Queen Bee #6482 was also the same as the other limited locomotives but was only lettered SOUTHERN.

Hey Sean

Where have you been hiding, I thought maybe you had become a Santa Fe Fan or something almost as bad.

As time wore on, many of the Ps-4s did swap their 12 wheel tenders for 8 wheel tenders taken from Ts-1 mountains. The size of tender depended on how long their run was and how often they need to replenish water. Also Ps-4 #1400 had a 8 wheel tender because #1380 took away its 12 wheeler when Spencer streamlined 1380 as the "Tennessean".         

 ----from TIES Magazine March 1994.

Southern Trivia:

The first Harrison Ps-4 to be scrapped was #1399 which needed a major overhaul.  In mid-1949 Spencer Shops sent #1399 to Hayne Yard in Spartanburg to be scrapped. The employees at Hayne were sure someone was mistaken and that no one was crazy enough to scrap a Ps-4. So, they sent it back to Spencer. End of story is that Spencer sent it back again and it finally met the scrappers torch. [caused by stinking diesels]. 

                    .......from Bill Alsbrooks, Spencer Shops emloyee 1936 to 1960.

CNO&TP #6482 that Sean mentioned above was known as Southerns "most photographed engine".

Well, that's the question, isn't it? Some of us have been discussing that question on several threads for days, now.  I think Dewey's comments are on the money, that is, it's mostly about whether it's worth it to someone to have the Legacy innerds or not.

I have the 2006 PS-4, which has the last generation of R/S 5 before Legacy, 4 chuffs per revolution, variable and controllable chuff, variable and quilling whistle, dual Fatboys, etc. (these are things the 2003 Crescent doesn't have, of course), and given that pre-Legacy engines run so well in a Legacy operating envirornment, I determined that it wasn't worth it to get the new engine. There would probably be not that much significant and noticable improvement. I also like the brakeman's stand on this engine's tender.

It's also interesting, now that the new engine has appeared, that it has the same black wheels and pilot as the 2006 version, so it looks about the same, but with a red roof. Personally, besides being non-prototypical, the red roof makes the engine look a little cheesie, but of course that's just my opinion. This color is not the more subtle Pennsy maroon, either, but a relatively bright, orange-red.

Your 2003 version of the Crescent is a very attractive looking engine. I've heard good reports about its sounds, as well. What I would do (as if it matters!) is run it in a Legacy environment (which you may already be doing) and see if you're satisfied with the performance. It would be great to be able to compare it to a Legacy engine, and see if the operating difference is appreciable. I'm thinking that you'll conclude that your Crescent operates fine, and while it doesn't have all the latest electronic whiz-bangs, it's still pretty good, and given its great looks, it's a keeper. Besides, there are so many other new things to spend money on now!

Hey Dewey,

Nope I haven't been hiding and I sure haven't joint my Father to the dark side and starting collecting the Santa Fe. I'm just making sure I'm spending some time with my 15 month old son plus working and going back to school.

Sean

Good for you and for your son. Are you still at Duke P. ?

So these are already shipping?  I am used to waiting 10 yrs for my order to arrive. 

?????

The pictures above are from people who have already received their engines.

Just an opinion - I prefer oxide red cab roofs and tender decks.  I bet most collectors of gaudily painted models are like me, although my lone Southern is quite dirty.  It might cost a bit more to offer two roof styles.

A possible solution is a quick repaint of the offending surface?

I am glad 3-rail collectors are getting picky about prototypical accuracy.  It cannot be long before you will demand accuracy in dimensions and details, too.

Yup. That's my point. If you want something, you'd better get going, at least as it pertains to these three steamers. 

Dewey,

I'm still at Duke can't believe I've been there for 12 years.

My local dealer said that when the girl from Horizon called him last week about these sneak preview items she said that they were very limited.

For those worried about reissues adversely affecting the value of current models - not to worry. Lionel has taken care of that by making only a relative handful of the reissues.

Those wanting a Southern Crescent in the future, for example, will look to the older model, because the newer version won't be found. (Conversely, of course, the newer model could have relatively greater value than it otherwise would.)

Sort of kidding, but actually there may be some truth to this. (And coming from me, that's a rarity.)

I guess my feeling about it the actual product and the catalog picture are two different items. The Catalog picture shows the the picture of the Ps-4 from the 2003 limited edition set with green pilot and driver wheels. The roof was painted green even in the 2005 catalog that was described as being prototypical.

There was nothing in the new catalog saying the roof was going to be painted.

I will say this if Lionel where to release one more Ps-4 I would hope they visit 1401 in Washington D.C. and release that locomotive as the finial run.

Given that Lionel released the 1403 in 2006 (cataloged then), which is exactly the same engine as 1401 and has correct prototypical paint, it may be unlikely that they will do 1401 any time soon. It's maybe a little surprising they numbered the engine 1403 and not 1401.

Ben your mods look great, the touches of red really turned out great.

Prototypical accuracy is not something I care about, but realistic looking detail is.  The current Lionel has that look, whether true to the original or not.

 I notice the photo of the loco in the message above, which I guess from the context of that message must be prototypcal, lacks all the piping and equipment in the front 1/3rd of the Lionel model - that equipment is why I like it so much actually.  

Lee

The Ps-4 pictured above looks very much like my 1990 Williams brass Ps-4 which has very little piping on the boiler or smokebox. Prototypes vary---Pegram Shops covered some of their Ps-4 sand dome piping with a shroud.  I can't make out the road number on Bob2's engine---mine carries 1401.

A rust red tender deck was prototypical on both Southern passenger and freight engines according to a long ago article in SRHA's TIES Magazine.

I believe that picture is a Ts Class 4-8-2 it's hard to make out the numbers but Lionel did a Southern Railway version of the USRA Light Mountains which the Southern did rosters and used as their main passenger power on the Piedmont division before the Ps-4 where placed into service. I think the Lionel Southern Road number was 1491 and sported a red roof not the accurate Black or Green roof.

Actually the Mountain type has no prototype.  The boiler is bronze sand cast, and the rest is just parts from elsewhere.  As far as I can tell, Southern had no oil burners.  I put oxide red on cab roofs of most of my locomotives..

I have the skill to put as much detail as I want on my models, and often stop short of full and accurate detail. The Elesco feed water heater is what demands all those pipes on the PS-4.  My point was if you get to the point where a cab roof color is the make or break decision point, you are getting close to demanding accurate models in size and configuration - and I regard that as a good thing.

You're right Sean obviously--that  is a 4-8-2. Not very observant of me!

Thanks Zett! It's not much, but it adds a little something extra

I painted the cab roof of my Lionel Ts Class 4-8-2 mountain black this weekend. Stay tuned for pictures coming soon!

What color was the tender deck of the Ts Class 4-8-2 Mountains?

Ben,

The tender deck on the Ts-1 where rust red or oxide red.

You can find alot of information on the HOSAM web link :

http://www.hosam.com/srr/srr.html

Thought I would post this image taken by Shelby Lowe at Spencer Shops in the late 40s. Note the difference between the 4-6-2 Pacific (MTH had this version in their last catalog) and the freight locomotive. Tender deck on freight is red, but highly coasted with coal dust. Used the B&W version of this shot in my book on Spencer Shops last year. Cool, isn't it?

Great photo, thanks Larry.

Ms-4 #4876 is the model we keep begging one of the Importers to produce for the market. A USRA Heavy Mikado is sorely missing from the O-gauge hobby except for  those handmade by Harry Heike, Joe Scales and a very few others. Southern Railways' mainline freight locomotive for 30 years, 1923--53.

Note the Ps-4s black marker lignts and "stepped" ruinning boards. As Southern's steam power was being upfitted for the WWII years those running boards became straight on most Ps-4s.

Definetely a pair of Aces Larry!

Just for comparison, here are some pictures of Lionel's PS-4 No. 1403 from 2006, identical model to the 1401 in the Smithsonian. (You have to click on each photo to get the true picture, remember).

Looking at Ben's modification to his Ps-4 he hit the nail on the head.

Note the white stripe on the pilot and look at the Photo Larry posted.

The SC video is up too(12:52 EDT today):

That white pilot stripe looks nice - maybe I'll have to add that to mine. It must have driven Southern detail crews nuts trying to keep the paint white in that location! In fact, it may not have been used very long before it was removed. Note that No. 1401 in the Smithsonian has no such white stripe on the pilot.

Shelby Lowe,the photographer of Larry Neal's photo, posted above, was also the co-author of "Southern Steam Power" with Harold Ranks. Along with "Southern Railway Systems" by Richard Prince, the two books are the "bibles" of Southern Railway Steam Engines. Both were published in the 1960s and are out of print, although in recent years "Southern Steam Power" has had a paperback reprint.

I bought both hardback books at a NYC used book loft on 45th Street during the early 1970s.

Larry's photographed Locomotives, both passenger and freight, are "crowned" with the Elesco Feedwater Heater astride the smokebox brow. This unit caused many rail fans, and seemingly all photgraphers, to consider the Elesco an attractive viewing feature of many Ps-4s and Ms-4s. The Ms-4 freight Locomotive pictured is also equipped with a Brakeman's  "Shanty", or "Doghouse", on the Tender.

Harold Ranks and Shelby Lowe did an entire chapter on "Decorated Engines". Southern Master Mechanics were given great leeway in how they painted, trimmed and decorated their engines. Engineers took it a step further by adding bull horns, eagles, flags, Shriners and Masons emblems, placed in front and on the rear of the tender. To settle an argument on a particular Southern engine's livery, one has to pick a particular road number, on a particular date and from a particular shop, operated by a particular engineer.

For me, I am comfortable with Lionel #1403 and #1396 and MTH #1401[Proto 1.0] and #1396[TMCC]. My 1990 Williams #1401 [conv.]needs "treatment"! I am often tempted to repaint and redecorate it as an AGS "Queen and Crescent", but old age awareness takes over and I procrastinate.

Ben has the right idea, make your own comfort.

Actually 1401 does have a white stripe on the pilot! 

That's just a reflection, not a white stripe. You can see a similar reflection on the side of the pilot, too. The 1401 didn't have a white stripe.

I will still argue that 1401 does in fact have a white stripe on the pilot, and it is not just a reflection.

You can argue it if you like, but you'd still be wrong.    Here's a photo of the 1401 when it was on "active duty."  No stripe.

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Charlotte, VA
Date: July 1933
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

Well, to keep this debate going I have found another original color photo of a Ps-4 in operation. This is the 1397, photographed by Leonard W. Rice at Washington, DC on February 14, 1950. Photo is from a Vanishing Vistas large postcard published in 1987. This shows how the Ps-4s looked in daily service, for those who like to weather and detail their locomotives. 

Some observations: black class lights, black Elesco Feedwater heater and piping, high running boards and ladders, and look closely at the color of the striping. It doesn't look white to me, but imitation aluminum! It is clearly not bright white as on the 1401 or Lionel/MTH models.

As for the 1401, that photo was used in Prince's book on the Southern. That is an early shot, before the modifications made at Spencer Shops during the 1940s. Note the as-built running boards and ladders and different style pilot. It also has a strange decoration between the bell and headlight. I have other color views (thanks to the old Vanishing Vistas large postcard series) and the white stripe is definitely there on the pilots by the 1940s. 

Suffice it to say, Southern changed the Ps-4s regularly from the 1920s to 1950s, when they were retired. As modelers, we either leave the locomotives as is from the factory or modify based on a specific photograph or year of operation. Personally, I will find a Lionel 11103 and tweak it some to make a good representation of a 1940s - 1950s Ps-4 based at Spencer Shops. 

And yet here we can see 1401 after 1933, in active duty, clearly with a white stripe.

Keep in mind that 1401 was reassigned to Spencer Shops from Pegram Shops in 1945 and was likely "Spencerized". Quoting Spencer's white trim scheme: "sides of running boards,platform under smokebox, bottom edge of pilot, and tires of wheels [or in some cases aluminum, not white]. Wheel centers were not painted white at Spencer."

.....from TIES Engine Spotting features.

I expect we are viewing #1401 at different dates as decorated and trimed by two different Shops. Additionally, a third Shop, Alexandria Shops at D.C., did the final dress up of #1401 for its Smithsonian debut---not Spencer Shops. The conventional wisdom at Spencer was that #1393 was earmarked for display at the Smithsonian since she had been one of the Harrision Crescent Limited engines. In 1953 Spencer had cleaned painted and mothballed #1393 for that purpose and for static display on the Shops grounds temporarily in connection with a Rowan County Centennial celebration.

However, "officials" in Washington had chosen otherwise and picked #1401. The story that #1401 was selected because she was the only lead Locomotive pulling President Roosevelt's funeral train to be decorated with an American flag [the train was pulled from Warm Springs Georgia to Washington by double-headed Ps-4s, two from each Division on the Eastern Lines route--Atlanta Division, Greenville, Charlotte, Danville, etc.]. Interestingly, at one time The Smithsonian showed a copy of the Army Signal Corps aerial color photos of the Funeral Train and all the various PS-4s at the head end---nary a red cab roof!

I don't think the Feedwater heater is necessarily black, among other things. It's just the shading of an old, reproduced photo. Looking at photos, it's often difficult to tell colors because of the lighting on the subject, and the resulting shading. With photography, it's all about light. You have to be careful judging colors, or even if something is colored at all, from photographs.

And as we all know, this is also true when we view things with our own eyes. Among other things, colors with shading on them often look black.

A model train example is the well-known history of the black Santa Fe warbonnet F-3. It originated with an individual at Lionel illustrating a photo he had of the real F-3s, and in the particular photo he was looking at, the lighting was such that the stainless steel sides of the engines looked black.

Reflecting Dewey's comments above, looking at various photos of Southern steam engines, there was a lot of variation among them with respect to the white pilot stripe. Some had them, some didn't. Even among sequentially number locos, there was variation. Given Dewey's information on variations on shop preferences, things were every which way.

Here's the 1396, with a stripe;

And here's the 1397, with no stripe:

Southern Steam #1397
Location: Washington DC
Date: April 1948
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

From Engine Spotters Guide.

True of most Ps-4 engines after 1940:

"the typical Ps-4 was painted with standard smokebox paint, normally a medium gray. All of the jewelery around the smokebox----valve ladders, headlight, markers, hinges, pilot, Elesco feedwater heater and piping,bell bracket, handrails, were painted engine black".

"the cylinder head covers were not chrome plated or painted-----they were 'tinned' with babbitt alloy,a soft alloy of tin, copper and antimony and the effect was striking if the engine wipers kept the covers clean". [a lot of babbitt alloy around the Shops, it was used to reduce friction on bearings].

"all alumium and gold leaf paint had been changed to imitation shades to better withstand the acid wash bath at the wash pit".

"never say never about a Southern Locomotive's paint, trim and decoration". Good advice!

The only Southern Railway Ps-4 I have ever seen was the #1401 in the Transportation Wing during a couple of visits in the early 1980s. I don't recall all the specific trim and decoration but I do remember that it was an impressive experience. [My cousin worked there and I tried to get photos but she was afraid of being fired if caught].

When I rode the Crescent Greensboro to New Orleans in July 1949 to connect with the Southern Pacific for San Diego and boot camp, I remember that cab style diesels took us to Atlanta--probably E6s or 7s, then Ls class steam to Montgomery and diesels again for weight restrictions on the rickety trestles into New Orleans.

Another variation - here's the 1393, but without the Crescent lettering (post-Crescent decor period, apparently).  

Southern Steam #1393
Location: Charlotte, NC
Date: June 1938
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

And here's the 1396, but note that it has a brakeman's stand on the tender. (Also note the date - it would have been a good time to unload your stock.)

Southern Steam #1396
Location: Washington DC
Date: June 1929
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

I've noticed on 1401 from the 1933 photo she sported two candlesticks flag holders on the headlight and I've never been able to id the object that's above the headlight mounted to the smokebox. Also she has an extended pilot and a different numberboard during this time.

Ben,

Where did you get the part for the thumbnail visor and did you use caboose red for the painting the inside of the visor and bell?

I'm thinking about doing the same mods you did to your #1403 that I want to do for mines. 

Sean

If you are talking about the wedge-shaped feature above the headlight, that was said to be an experimental train indicator number board. It is visible on a photo of 1401 sitting in Charlotte July 1933 with the Piedmont Limited in tow.

I see the visor now Ben I was thinking that the visor wasn't on the locomotive but it is.

I'm going to paint the inside visor and bell on both of my lionel Ps-4

Dewey,

I assume if 1401 was power for train 38 then 38 would be displayed in the numberboard.

Glad that didn't stick around long because that really killed the look of the Ps-4.

Another variation, mentioned by Dewey previously - the Queen and Crescent.

If you have Legacy do it.

Ben,

As Larry and Dewey have stated the Ps-4 did have the roofs painted BLACK or GREEN. It would depend on what shop that locomotive was assigned too

That's not very distinctive. How about putting a "See Rock City" sign on the roof?

Ben

Ps-4 engine number five on your roster can be one of the most distinctive of all.

Road number 1380, "The Tennessean".  A streamlined,numbered and limited edition Ps-4 by Weaver. A conventional engine that has been out many years. But, a lot of room in that long, 12-wheel tender to upgrade for command control if desired.

Designed by Otto Kuhler, built by Spencer Shops.

Ben,

I've seen the Weaver Southern Ps-4 pop up on ebay from time to time.

I was lucky to acquire one from Dewey and get the matching passenger cars from MTH off Ebay. The beauty of it all is I have both the The Tennessean Ps-4 and the Lionel  N&W Class J #611 so I can operate the train with both roads motive power.

Finding matching passenger car will be a little bit harder.

The best set of cars that I have to go with my Lionel Southern PS-4 #1403 where the 80" cars from Golden Gate Depot which only 20 set in Southern where made.

I still need to get the Golden Gate PULLMAN Dinner ,PULLMAN sleeper a Weaver 60" Undecorated RPO car and Baggage car have them letter for SOUTHERN to complete the consist.

I recall the one on eBay from about a year ago. I did my ****edest to stay on top of it, but it slipped through my fingers. The first time I saw the model was in Ted Lannom of The Nashville Toy Museum's collection. He had some beautiful custom cars to go with the engine.

Ted Lannom, is in my opinion, the best southern railway o scale modeler. Though the Nashville Toy Museum is no longer around, you can read about his layout in the September 1992 issue of Model Railroader.

The great thing about modeling the "Tennessean" is what Sean is talking about. You can correctly pull it with the Ps-4 1380, the N&W "J" or Southern E units.

In the early days, shortly before the out break of WWII,when Southern first bought the E-6s and the new "Silver Cars" for the Southerner, Tennessean and Crescent; N&W did not allow diesels["dismals"] on its rails which were a part of the Tennessean's run [from Lynchburg to Bristol] over the mountains on the Washington to Memphis Route.

This N&W rule triggered the development of the Ps-4 Streamliner for the Washington to Lynchburg run because Southern did not want to tie up one of its new E-6s just for that short run. Then the "J" took over on N&W rails to Bristol where the E-6s took over.

The Streamlined Ps-4 was a big hit with the Washington press corp and much free publicity was generated when the steam powered, streamined "Silver Train" entered and exited D.C.

I saw the Ps-4 1380 once in nearby Reidsville, N.C. in Fall 1948 while at the Tobacco Market with my Dad and Uncle. It was pulling the Monroe[Va.] to Spencer passenger consist. There are a number of photos taken of 1380 in Reidsville which was a popular photo op on the Southern's dual mainline to D.C.

Although N&W did not go "dismal" until 1960, it relented on the no diesel rule for the Tennessean's route after a short while

N&W's decision probably had more to do with the lack of facilities to handle diesel breakdowns/repairs/servicing more than any implied anti-diesel bias.

Rusty

The Lionel car for the 1403 are a lighter shade of green. Not the PULLMAN green we're all used to seeing and the same used by the Southern for thier regular heavyweight passenger consists. I have those Lionel cars but I prefer to use the Golden Car car because of the 80" scale size and the details are somewhat better than the Lionel cars. The only down side to the Golden Gate cars are the lack of passengers but they do have interior details.

The Observation car on the Lionel set the durmhead was for the Carolina Special which would have used the Ps-4 or a Ts-1

Yes the Lionel Southern cars are hard to find, but not nearly as hard to find as is the limited set of 20 by GGD. I have the complete 7 car set from Lionel. I enjoy them, just wish they had more outer detail. And MTH makes some as well, but they are nothing to brag about, they're older and don't include people or anti-rattle bars. 

I believe Trains Limited in St. Lewis had a complete 7 car set of the Lionels a few months ago. check there. But I do recall he didn't want to break up the set. So it's all 7 or nothing.

I want to new Crescent cars from Lionel, only if they have issued the cars new names.

breezinup: here's a photo of the front of one of Lionel's 80' cars that came out with #1396

Yes, thank you. I'm familiar with those Crescent cars, but it's the light Pullman green heavyweights (the cars just say "Southern" on them) that were cataloged with PS-4 #1403 in 2006 that I was wondering about.

However, I think I'll just get a set of those new Crescent cars that are shown in the 2012 catalog. They're more colorful, certainly. I think they're supposed to be out in June. 

Even though the #1403 says "Southern" in large letters on its tender, without the Crescent Limited" lettering, the engine is a dead ringer for the new Legacy Crescent, except the #1403 has the green roof. I'm sure it will look fine with the Crescent cars.

I know very little about the Southern, but danged if it doesn't look like a white stripe in those photos that were posted, and not a reflection. Course one has to wonder about painting anything on the pilot white, since it won't stay that way for long.

Its obvious that it was painted that way in the photo, guys, stripes and painted pilots and all.  But to me that proves nothing.  

A

loco painted that way just would not last long in service before it looked scuffed and dirty.  I imagine it was painted just for the photo.  If nothing else, the white-painted fronts to the cylinders would not have lasted any time in road service . . . they'd be covered with grime as would the pilots. . . here they are pristine.  Publicity shoot?

Regardless, I've seen other photos and I imagine that at different times this loco and its brethren differed -- maybe a  lot -- as to trim and colors, etc.  But the paint here, and on the Lionel model, whether prototypical or not, is just way too much for me.  I think its a good attempt by Lionel and I think no one will ever resolve what is right because there is no right answer - there were very likely many actual different paint schemes.  

I have a couple of other minor projects to finish up and then I am going to repaint mine flat black.  I love the attached equipment and piping on this loco - best of all the Pacifics I've seen.  I really dislike the garish paint.  I'll post pictures not only of the result, but the steps in the repaint, for anyone interested.

Finally got mine on the rails.  So very disappointed that the beautiful Southern long bell three chime whistle is no where to be found.  What gives?  Can this be fixed? 

Lee

The cylinder covers were coated wiith babitt not painted or chromed. Shops had many engine wipers  to keep engines clean between wash jobs, many times women doing the work, especially during WWII. Cotton yarn waste was used for wiping as well as in journals.

A black and gold lettered Ps-4 will be stunning.

One thing is for sure, Southern kept their equipment looking in tip top shape. Even their yard switchers, the 0-6-0's and 0-8-0's had white stripes down the running boards. Southern was all about class. Yes there are plenty of dirty looking locos in pictures, but for the most part, Southern kept everything looking quite pristine. 

The bottom of the pilots were painted white from time to time on many of these engines, including the 1401, but they were not painted white all the time. I think that's been made clear by commentary above, discussing the preferences of the various shops. There are photos showing a given engine with the stripe, and other photos of the same engine showing no stripe. In some of the pictures it is indeed a reflection, and reflections make other parts of the engine look white as well that were clearly not parts that were painted.  Here are several more shots of the 1401, both showing the engine with clearly no white stripe on the pilot. One is from 1933, and one is from 1953.

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Charlotte, VA
Date: July 1933
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Alexandria, VA
Date: July 1953
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

Ben,

You are right. It seems like a dream location now but at the end of the street where I grew up, all sorts of Southern engines trundled back and forth along with a fair number of Southern Pacific locomotives. Back then, it was mostly diesel switchers but some of the bigger ones too and I will always remember the gleaming black, gold and white trim. I think that I mostly anticipated the cabooses since there was pretty much variety over the years. I loved the slogans painted on the cars, it seemed like they had a new one every year or two. Trains still run there but they don't seem to be quite as elegant but maybe that has more to do with my memories. Thanks for helping to keep the memories alive.