LIRR Nos 35 & 39

Gentle Forum Members,

I apologize for any confusion.  To comply with the new rules of the "O Gauge Railroading" on-line forum, we are posting announcements for RMLI Collectible Cars in the "For Sale" thread of "Miscellaneous Forums."  You may see the posting for the "Steam Up LIRR 39" made in America boxcar here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...01#50704664806567001

Currently, the Railroad Museum of Long Island is in a fifteen year contract with the Strasburg Rail Road Company to raise $1,094,000.00 to restore LIRR Steam Locomotive 39.  Once the Museum's share of the cost is raised, the Strasburg will complete the restoration in a three year period.  Once operational, the Strasburg will lease the locomotive from the RMLI for a period of forty-eight years with the option to renew.  Since March 2013, the RMLI has raised $165,811.00 and fundraising continues.  Strasburg Rail Road Company has pledged $1,321,086.00 to the restoration effort.  This is a $2.4 million dollar project.

You can follow the progress of LIRR Engine 39 on our Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/SteamUpLIRR39/?fref=ts

At this point all of our efforts are focused on fundraising.  We are continually seeking prospective granting foundations and organizations and applying for support.  We have merchandise that we sell in our Museum gift shops and at shows that specifically benefit the restoration fund.  The Lionel Collectible Car is our latest offering.  Members of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society and its Chapters; and members of the National Railway Historical Society have continued to make generous donations to the restoration fund.  A newly formed PRRT&HS Long Island Chapter is focusing on support for both the LIRR #39 and the LIRR #35 locomotives.

From a technical standpoint, the LIRR G5s Steam Locomotive 39 was last surveyed for restoration in 2009.  It was deemed in excellent condition for restoration to operation and an updated "scope of work" was created.  You may view that "scope of work," restoration agreement and lease on the RMLI website here:

http://www.rmli.us/RMLI/Documents.html

In 2008 the locomotive's boiler/firebox was transferred to Strasburg Rail Road Company from the contractor on Long Island who had started restoration work in 2005.   Strasburg, with the latest FRA data coming from the PRR K4s #1361 restoration at Steamtown USA, re-engineered our firebox to comply with current FRA operating safety standards.  They constructed a new roof sheet/side sheets assembly and our firebox is now FRA safety rated.  All new staybolts, flexible staybolts, staybolt sleeves, caps and rings have been fabricated.  New firebox supports and a new crown sheet have been made and are in storage with the boiler/firebox at Strasburg - all awaiting the cash to be put together!  At Riverhead the restored tender awaits transport to Strasburg.  The drive wheels have been re-tired and the pilot truck and two tender trucks have been converted to roller bearing axles from their original PRR friction bearings. 

Since 1980 allot of good restoration work has been accomplished on this locomotive.  With the passing of time, FRA regulations have changed, costs have increased, the original founders of the 39 restoration project have moved on to be replaced by the Railroad Museum of Long Island.  Geographically, all the remnants of steam railroading on Long Island have disappeared.  There are no more coaling towers, no more water towers, no more turntables at Greenport and Riverhead to turn the engine.  All of the old hands who worked on #39 at the LIRR have either moved off Long Island or come of an age where they can not work on her . . . . . . or passed on the "Westbound!"  Along with the Engine Shops necessary to maintain a steam locomotive, we have lost our knowledge base and skilled steam labor on Long Island.  A steam locomotive like LIRR G5s #39 needs to RUN and be MAINTAINED to live and tell the history of railroading on Long Island and throughout the greater Pennsylvania Railroad territory.  By partnering with the Strasburg Rail Road Company, the Trustees of the Railroad Museum of Long Island are assuring the survival, maintenance, and operation of a historic class of steam locomotive that served the people of the State of New York, specifically Long Islanders, for future generations to experience, come to know and enjoy.  Your interest and support is appreciated and welcomed.

Thank you,

Don Fisher, President

Railroad Museum of Long Island

While I can certainly appreciate the thought of one more steam engine being "raised from the dead", I just wonder why it's going to take $1,000,000 to restore her.  The Ft. Wayne bunch restored, and improved, the #765 a few years ago and it was reported that that restoration cost about $750,000 to complete.  Yet, the #765 is a much larger locomotive.  Seems to me that a ten wheeler, even one reported to be the largest ever built, should be restorable for a lot less money than a Berkshire.  I am aware that the Ft. Wayne group is mostly volunteer and Strasburg, on the other hand, is a paid professional organization.

Paul Fischer

fisch330 posted:

While I can certainly appreciate the thought of one more steam engine being "raised from the dead", I just wonder why it's going to take $1,000,000 to restore her.  The Ft. Wayne bunch restored, and improved, the #765 a few years ago and it was reported that that restoration cost about $750,000 to complete.  Yet, the #765 is a much larger locomotive.  Seems to me that a ten wheeler, even one reported to be the largest ever built, should be restorable for a lot less money than a Berkshire.  I am aware that the Ft. Wayne group is mostly volunteer and Strasburg, on the other hand, is a paid professional organization.

Paul Fischer

It all depends on how much and what type of work needs to be done.

Rusty

Hi Paul,

        Steam locomotives under inspection/restoration are allot like people going to their doctor, each one is very different with various lifestyle issues unique to the locomotive or the patient. Likewise, remedial action for one locomotive/person can be very different from another – and the costs of those actions can be radically different depending on the region you live in, the specialists/hospitals you frequent and where you buy your drugs  (Canada is always cheaper!)

        I like equating steam locomotive work to working with people because just like each of us has a different weight and build, likes and dislikes, personalities and the way we like to be handled – so does a steam locomotive. It is a living, breathing beast of burden that needs to be tended to with loving care, just like us.

        I can’t speak for the $800,000.00 price tag placed on the #765’s rebuild in 2001, but I can draw a few opinions of the differences between the #765 and the #39 that might account for the radical spread in costs. I’d ask Rich Melvin, our Administrator and host to weigh in on this and correct me on anything I may have askew as he remains the Operations Manager for the #765’s excursion schedule. He has had many more years of experience in this field than I have and I respect and welcome his knowledge and comments.

        The first difference I see is the age and design of the locomotives, #765 built in 1944 with a “normal” firebox and the #39 built in 1929 with a Pennsy designed “Belpaire” firebox. The build dates make #39 the Old Dowager here and maintenance changes to her “Belpaire” firebox during shop time changed the margin of safety for operating the locomotive at 205 pounds of steam pressure. Remaining G5s Class engines #39, #35 and #5741 have the same sheets and staybolt spacing issues that were discovered on the PRR K4s #1361. We had to have #39’s firebox re-engineered and a brand new, thicker roof/side sheet assembly built to bring her into compliance with current FRA regulations. To the best of my knowledge, #765 didn’t need a brand new firebox in 2001.

 (see photo of new roof/side sheets below)

        LIRR #39 was placed out of service late in 1955 and was donated by the Company to the Museums at Stony Brook where she was placed on static display outside. #39 hasn’t seen a shop or a shed for sixty years, and her sheet metal and surfaces show the age of exposure. Fortunately, #765 was put inside an engine house in 1958 and remained there until 1963 when she went for display outside in a park. Even then #765 was exposed to the elements for only ten years, not sixty, and the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society was formed to save #765 from the deterioration she was experiencing in the park.

        The Nickle Plate Road locomotive was in better physical shape in 1974 than #39 was in 1980 when she was “rescued” from the Museums at Stony Brook. At this point we could digress and have an open and honest discussion of the differences between the men and women of the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society and the men and women of the Engine 39 Restoration Fund Committee, (and by extension – the Railroad Museum of Long Island who inherited #39 in 1992). The disparate actions of these two, (three), organizations have undoubtedly broadened the difference in restoration/rebuild costs of the two locomotives. I will not deny it, but what was done historically for #39 is done, “this” is today the 21st Century and “that” is history. To point fingers and try to place blame for missteps over twenty-five years does nothing to save the #39 and bring her back to life.

        Beginning in 1974, the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society began to aggressively address the physical conditions of #765 and had her operational in five years! Paul, a steam locomotive at rest is a rusty, deteriorating hulk of steel and iron . . . . . . . immediately, #765 benefitted from the actions of the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, they cleaned her, they repaired her, they tested her and put her to work – the best action that anyone can take to save and keep operational a steam locomotive is to run and maintain it! Steam engines want to be hot and running, just like a human runner!

        Leading up to #765’s rebuild in 2001, she was maintained and cared for. Work that we have to do now on #39, and pay for at 2016 prices, has been done continually on #765 – as regular operational maintenance. That care and maintenance benefitted #765’s rebuild in 2001, not to mention - the cost of everything was less fifteen years ago.

        With these physical condition differences I have pointed to, we are still heartened to find #39’s foundation, running gear and boiler to be in excellent shape for restoration and operation. Upon inspecting the cylinders of #39, it was stated by one engineer that he had seen much worse cylinders in operating locomotives!! His observation was good news in 2009. The Railroad Museum of Long Island is dedicated to saving and restoring this unique G5s 4-6-0 locomotive to operation for the people of Long Island, New York State and the entire Pennsylvania Railroad Territory – after all, the G5s Class was well known as the “Pittsburgh Engine!” Our Strasburg Rail Road Company partners are, in my opinion, second to none to restore this engine, operate it and care for it over the next half-century.

        I enthusiastically encourage anyone with an interest in Pennsy/Long Island railroading history . . . . . anyone with an appreciation for the industrial engineering work of PRR Mechanical Engineer William F. Kiesel, Jr. - who designed this G5s Class using the boiler of an E6s Atlantic and creating one of the largest and most powerful ten-wheelers ever built . . . . . . . to support #39’s return to life by sending the RMLI a donation or buying one of our Lionel SKU 6-58258 “Steam up LIRR 39” Made in America boxcars!

Thank you for your interest and consideration,
Don Fisher, President

Railroad Museum of Long Island

Don:  Thank you very much for your extensive and very thoughtful response to my question.  Your explanation is excellent and really helps guide my mind (and I'm sure others) to understand some of the problems, conditions and issues involved in this project.  God Bless you and your organization for having the devotion to take on an historical project like this one.   I certainly hope to see this engine under steam in my lifetime.

Paul Fischer

Thank you Paul,

And all of the Forum Members who follow and support the work done to preserve our Country's steam engines. 

Best,

Don

Hey Don! 

You mentioned that the turntable at Greenport is gone.  Last I was there, you guys had dug out the pit and there was a bridge there.  Is this not still the case?  Also, is there any mention in the SRRCo contract for the G5 coming back to the Island for limited excursions?  It seems to me that the Main Line from Riverhead to Greenport is ideally suited for a steam program/dinner train/wine train operation IF (a BIG "if") the MTA would play along...

Jon

Hi Jon!!

        Yes, it might have been more accurate to state the switch and lead track to the turntable "was gone."  Sorry for the confusion - but in our way of looking at it, the loss of the lead and switch and the condition of the facility, for all intensive purposes, puts the turntable at "gone!"

        The turntable bridge is still in the pit at Greenport.  BUT - the engineering study we had performed on the big iron shows so much waste at the rivets that it has to be pulled from the center bearing, disassembled on the ground, new cross members fabricated and installed and then all re-riveted or bolted back together.  The pit wall has cracked and the concrete is badly spalding, requiring extensive repair or outright replacement.  The ring rail needs to be pulled and extensive work including all new ties must be performed to its foundation.  Finally, negotiations with the LIRR/MTA and the Village of Greenport would have to go forward to reinstall the switch and lead track, across 4th Street, into the turntable.

        The cost of rehab and the new switch/lead track is cost prohibitive now and into the near future.

        Good question on bringing #39 back to Long Island.  Never say "never."  Here is the language from the lease agreement that could make a return to Long Island possible if all the Stars and Players were aligned in agreement:

7. USE OF THE LOCOMOTIVE:
        a) The SRC shall have the exclusive right to operate the LOCOMOTIVE on its property for the length of THE LEASE. The LOCOMOTIVE shall not be moved off the property of SRC for any reason or purpose without the written consent of the RMLI. During THE LEASE, the RMLI and the SRC agree to communicate, meet and mutually agree to any movement of the LOCOMOTIVE off SRC property for any reason or purpose.

        I will not hold my breath, but we have "bantered about" the possibility of #39 coming home for a two week period during the lease to run excursions on the LIRR, Jamaica to Montauk and up to the Port Jefferson (old Wading River) branch.  Both of those routes have wyes to turn the engine.  Like I said, don't hold your breath   For my money I think we might see her run around Horseshoe Curve before we see her back on Long Island

        Hey, don't let the music die up there in Vermont :-)  Keep 'em spinning!!

Best, Don

PS, next time you come down to East Marion, shout out - we'll get together for coffee!!

I look forward to my next trip down.  I haven't been since we laid Dad to rest in the East Marion Community Cemetery in October.  I'd love to have day to just see and do stuff on the North Fork.

Jon