Marx #21 repower project

Sorry to revive a very old thread, but I am trying to figure out what to do with my Marx 21. I want it to pull 4 Marx lighted Santa Fe passengers cars, but it won't. I bought a Lionel F3 A engine from the 1970's that looks similar and put it between the Marx engines to help, but that defeats the purpose. I'm not sure I want to replace the whole guts as Steve did.

Are there other options? Also, are the Marx Santa Fe cars too small for the Marx 21 engines anyway?

Thanks!

George

So, take this with a grain of salt since it is coming from someone called "WindupGuy", but would a 2nd powered truck fit in the front of the #21, or would the windshield/nose area interfere with it?  If that isn't possible, how about running two powered #21's back to back?  Something would have to be done with the reverse units, but that might be simpler than a full-blown repowering project.

As noted in the old posts above, I also tackled a Marx #21 repowering project... only I went with Marx windup motors:

George S posted:

Sorry to revive a very old thread, but I am trying to figure out what to do with my Marx 21. I want it to pull 4 Marx lighted Santa Fe passengers cars, but it won't. I bought a Lionel F3 A engine from the 1970's that looks similar and put it between the Marx engines to help, but that defeats the purpose. I'm not sure I want to replace the whole guts as Steve did.

Are there other options? Also, are the Marx Santa Fe cars too small for the Marx 21 engines anyway?

Thanks!

George

George, the Marx 21 had the earliest version of their diesel motor and it was not too great. When you say it won’t pull the 4 cars, does it bog down or do the wheels slip? Marx sets with 21 only came with 3 cars and they were special. No lights to eliminate the drag of the pick ups, tall sheet metal trucks so they old sit a little higher and the windows were lithograph. No openings. Later diesel motors improved quite a bit in pulling power. The later motors are not exactly a drop in, but can be installed. 

If the wheels slip, I’d try gluing traction tires on two of the wheels. I also like James’ suggestion of two power units.

steve

Good ideas. I am going to get the trains out of storage tomorrow to look at them and see what is possible. I can't remember whether it bogged down or the wheels spun. I'll check that too.

George

The later plastic  diesels have a huge weight that mounts on the motor, I don't know, but does the 21 also have that weight and if not, could you use that weight or one of those motors?

Dennis Holler posted:

The later plastic  diesels have a huge weight that mounts on the motor, I don't know, but does the 21 also have that weight and if not, could you use that weight or one of those motors?

It could be that the powered unit is too light. I will see what adding weight does.

Dennis Holler posted:

The later plastic  diesels have a huge weight that mounts on the motor, I don't know, but does the 21 also have that weight and if not, could you use that weight or one of those motors?

I have a set of the early metal 21's and the power unit has a very heavy weight to  aid in its traction and pulling power, nevertheless not the greatest puller in the world but it sure does look neat.

OKHIKER posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

The later plastic  diesels have a huge weight that mounts on the motor, I don't know, but does the 21 also have that weight and if not, could you use that weight or one of those motors?

I have a set of the early metal 21's and the power unit has a very heavy weight to  aid in its traction and pulling power, nevertheless not the greatest puller in the world but it sure does look neat.

Is the weight directly over the motor, or is it positioned more generally in the engine? Mine does not have the weight. If it turns out my wheels are slipping, the weight would help. 

George S posted:

OKHIKER posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

The later plastic  diesels have a huge weight that mounts on the motor, I don't know, but does the 21 also have that weight and if not, could you use that weight or one of those motors?

I have a set of the early metal 21's and the power unit has a very heavy weight to  aid in its traction and pulling power, nevertheless not the greatest puller in the world but it sure does look neat.

Is the weight directly over the motor, or is it positioned more generally in the engine? Mine does not have the weight. If it turns out my wheels are slipping, the weight would help. 

George,

          The weight is positioned directly over the motor which in located over the rear trucks in my 21.

I unboxed the train and got it on the tracks. I have 5 lighted passenger cars. I would say they drag a little more than Lionel cars do. I found one frozen wheel, which I fixed. The 21 will pull the dummy unit and one car, after that it needs a push to get started. With 5 cars, it has no chance. The wheels are spinning. This is on an O72 loop with only a small straight section.

The engine does have a weight on it. I pushed down gently on the engine and it actually started to move, so that tells me I don't have enough weight. 

There is no room to add a second motor in the powered unit. So, the option is to add a second power unit. I will need to solve the e-unit synchronization problem though.

Does anyone know if you can wire two motors easily to the same e-unit? I could tether the two motorized units and do that. If so, would it be better to bypass the Marx e-units and get a better one?

Thanks,

George

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I think the look I was trying to get turned out well. Trying to keep things metal, these were modified to pull a string of of post war aluminum coaches. They do look well together. I now will add horns and rewire the motors in series to slow it down a bit.

 

Steve

 

 

Steve,

I do think the Aluminum Lionel cars look nicer than the Marx cars and they are sized better for the 21 engines. 

George

those look good. I  run an extra set of the Marx NYC cars behind my gunmetal Lionel 1689E

So, this should entertain everybody! 

I took the motor out of the shell. I needed to find something heavy to put on it. That small plumbers wrench should do!

Well, she can pull all 5 lighted cars and the dummy with it. I think it is a little too heavy and wouldn't fit in the shell anyway.

The other thing I noticed is that I am at almost max power. When she gets to the other side of the loop, she stops. I don't have a second power feed over there. A second powered unit would help, but I think they both need more weight. I am not sure how I am going to add that yet.

George

George, how many volts are you giving it. Max should be about 14-15 without damaging a Marx motor

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

George, how many volts are you giving it. Max should be about 14-15 without damaging a Marx motor

You're right. I actually burned it out before. I had to rewind the field. That was a fun project.  

If I run two Marx motors, will that reduce the voltage needs of the whole train?

George

Steve, 

I am now thinking about going the route you did. Did you paint the GP-9 trucks silver?

I have two candidate engines. One is a Railking RS-3. The other is a Lionel F3 from the '70s. I think the Lionel may only have one motor, but it pulls strong. The Railking has two, but has black trucks. The Railking could be fun because it has sound. I could even change the sound file to match an F type engine.

George

George S posted:

Steve, 

I am now thinking about going the route you did. Did you paint the GP-9 trucks silver?

I have two candidate engines. One is a Railking RS-3. The other is a Lionel F3 from the '70s. I think the Lionel may only have one motor, but it pulls strong. The Railking has two, but has black trucks. The Railking could be fun because it has sound. I could even change the sound file to match an F type engine.

George

George, the GP-9 already had silver trucks, but painting them would not be an issue. The big issue would be your truck spacing. Do they reasonably line up with the 21's truck openings. I agree the MTH would be a better choice if the trucks are a close fit.  I have removed the Williams assembly on mine and replaced it with a MTH P2 chassis.

Steve

https://youtu.be/55m7RXGV2I8

I just built another 21 tinrod and used the chassis from a Williams scale ALCo FA. The wheelbase matched the Marx markings perfectly.

I actually had an MTH GP7, not an RS-3. The wheelbase is 1/2 inch longer than the Marx 21, but that is only a 1/4 inch on each side. I think it will work. I modified the frame and remove some components to make the shell fit. Here is a picture and a video. The shell is only friction fit onto the frame right now. I still need to mount it more permanently. I also need to paint the trucks and the lower body. I would remove the belly of the GP7, but that houses the speaker and adds weight. I think I will keep it and paint it silver to match the trucks. I broke a Marx coupler on one of the cars, and the horns came off the shell. Those are repairable. 

What do you think before I finish this and am completely beyond the point of no return?

George

George S posted:

I actually had an MTH GP7, not an RS-3. The wheelbase is 1/2 inch longer than the Marx 21, but that is only a 1/4 inch on each side. I think it will work. I modified the frame and remove some components to make the shell fit. Here is a picture and a video. The shell is only friction fit onto the frame right now. I still need to mount it more permanently. I also need to paint the trucks and the lower body. I would remove the belly of the GP7, but that houses the speaker and adds weight. I think I will keep it and paint it silver to match the trucks. I broke a Marx coupler on one of the cars, and the horns came off the shell. Those are repairable. 

What do you think before I finish this and am completely beyond the point of no return?

George

Paint the trucks silver and your good to go. Actually I'd paint the dummy trucks also so they match. Now you can easily pull more cars.

Steve

George S posted

If I run two Marx motors, will that reduce the voltage needs of the whole train?

George

 

In series 2 can spin faster; less torque. (equal to weakest single) Needs more amps. 

In parrallel they have more torque, less top speed. Needs more volts.

You will need about it to weigh in at about 3 pounds (+oz ?) to pull 5-6 lit Marx cars. 

  They make strips of soft steel with 2oz scored sections as auto or truck wheel balance weights (maybe semi truck?). They have a peel and stick heavy duty but thin adhesive back.  Like a metal chocolate bar, break off as needed and stick, stack, etc. (1" x1"x ¼" or 3/4x3/4x1/8 maybe?) You can add half a pound+ to a frame alone real easy. A few more on the inside roof, braces, etc.

I got the trucks and the underbelly and tanks painted yesterday. I polished both engine shells, removing a lot of dirt and other surface issues. I also reattached the horns. It was looking pretty good on the track. I added a jumper to the far end of my loop and the engine performed much better all the way around at even a lower voltage.

In the process, I drilled a hole in the engine shell over the smoke unit. It lined up almost perfectly in a litho exhaust stack. I was adding some smoke fluid with the engine running in neutral, and my sounds quit. They came on briefly after shutting everything down an restarting it, but went off again. I am running in conventional mode, and I don't have my DCS unit here. I tried a conventional reset, but that did not work. I also cannot get the rear coupler to fire. The engine moves, the lights work and the smoke works. The battery did not have a full charge. The engine sounds only played 5 seconds after shutdown. 

I will need to get my DCS unit hooked up to see if resetting the engine helps. I'll also get my charger and charge the engine before doing anything. I hope I didn't blow the sound board. I had a couple of wiring harness connectors open, that I didn't need any longer. I have now taped those off.

BTW - still need to paint the trucks on the dummy engine, but want to get this fixed first.

George

For anyone who was worried besides me , I did not blow my PS2 board. I finally figured out that the speaker gave out. It just stopped working and ohm'd out to infinity. There were no physical signs of failure. I went to Chicagoland Hobbies and got a new speaker and now all is well! I also picked up a used set of Santa Fe aluminum cars they had there for a great price! I think they look much better with the Marx 21 engine.  I need to change out the coupler on the dummy engine, then I will post some pics.

George