MTH PS1 Problem

Welcome.  Glad to have you here.  You came to the right place. 

I can not answer the question.  Someone here will. 

If at all possible, in the event someone is generally aware of PS-1 issues like this, but maybe not as intimate with your model, are there picture you can post of the 'problem' board / wire?  At the minimum, it helps to have this info in the post for future reference, should a friend of your from the UK have a similar issue!

Be patient.  There are many here with many ideas and all love to help folks, so this could be a good thread.

Good luck.  And do let us know the final outcome.

Thanks.

Thanks, John - I'll keep my fingers crossed! I didn't post a pic, because visually there is absolutely nothing wrong or out of place. However, I will do so if anyone asks. Regards, David

From the mth manual:

RESET and go to Feature 18

The proto coupler for the tender is either attached via a 4 position blue connector at the end of the bottom board, or it is soldered there maybe via a switch.  That 2 pin may be an extra connection for an Aux tender.

If does not go to the 2 pin you plugged it into.  That is for a beacon for a diesel.  Unplug it and see if the board still works.  You can down load the directions from mth web site.  G

Hi guys, thanks for the replies - at least I now know what the connection is for! Just to re-cap, the proto-coupler cable has been unplugged and the problem still persists. There is just the loud buzzing from the boards and no movement, no whistle and no bell. The loco headlights and smoke unit work, although I understand they take their power from the track. It's a bit beyond the factory re-set 18 stage because nothing responds to the controls. I'm at a total loss! Regards, David

Greetings,

I recently recovered two of my own PS-1 locomotives from a similar fate.  However, their situation was not likely caused by the wiring mishap of which you speak.  I had acquired the locomotives on eBay.  When I placed them on the track & turned on power (after first replacing the batteries with new rechargeable ones), they sat in a catatonic state.  They would turn on with lights & generate a hum/buzz, but were otherwise unresponsive.  

After some research, I found that they were on a known list of early MTH locomotives that could become "deselected" because they hadn't been shut down correctly.  Deselection can reportedly be caused by the locomotive being powered down with a low/dead battery, or by the power being cycled on/off incorrectly before hearing the final "chirp" (burp/belch sound) that indicates it has powered down correctly.  Since you report that you replaced your loco's battery, it is possible that the wiring mishap prevented the loco from completing the correct power down procedure.  

I can confirm that the model number you provided (#30-1119-1 for the 4-8-4 GS-4 Northern Steam Engine), is on the list of locomotives that could become deselected.  While I can't guarantee that this is your situation, I can offer two cost effective solutions, of which one should solve your problem.

First, you can get an updated chip from MTH for your engine.  It contains a new "program" that ignores your loco's "address", which was ostensibly designed to allow multiple engines to run on the same track.  This feature became unnecessary with PS-2 & was abandoned.  MTH will see that your loco is on the list & can provide a new chip for $30 plus applicable shipping (minimum of $10 in the USA).  You'll also need to acquire a chip removal tool.  You can get one in Part Number 50-1024, the "Original Proto-Sound Reset Kit".  These are no longer produced & may be hard to find, but can be found through an online reseller or through a hobby store via MTH's product locator. Within the last month, I found two locations in the US that had a supply or could order a kit for me.  One was in Miami, FL & the other was in Rhode Island.  

Once you receive the new chip, simply use the chip removal tool to disengage your original chip & replace it with the new one.  Apply a LOW level of power to see if your loco will enter the reset state indicated by two bells.  if it does, go to reset state 18 to reset all settings to factory default.  If you can do this, then your problem should be solved.  

If your loco is still unresponsive, then you might have a damaged circuit board.  The good news is that it is also an easy fix, if you can find an operational used PS-1 board to replace the damaged one.  Just keep an eye out for a used PS-1 Board to replace the one in your loco.  I've recently purchased two on eBay within the last month or so.  Once you receive the new board, simply place the new chip that you received from MTH in the open slot on the replacement board.

Some may suggest, or you may conclude, that you could first replace the board or try to reset the board with the reset chip that comes with the reset kit.  While that may solve your problem, you will still have a loco with a chip that could cause your loco to later become deselected.  As affordable as a new chip is, you might as well eliminate future problems & work through a step-wise troubleshooting process before spending more money than necessary.

Sorry for the dissertation length response, but hopefully it is helpful.

Kind regards,

George

PS: I must give credit & thanks to others who previously posted this information for me to learn & pass on to you.  Please see the attached list of affected locomotives.  If you are unable to read the attachment, let me know so that I can paste the actual text.  Alternatively, you can search "deselect" in the forum to find more information.

You may have blown the 9V regulator.  If it is reading high that can cause the loud buzz.  Does it change with a lower track voltage?  G

GGG,

You may have have answered another one of my PS-1 problems, from another engine.  However, the locomotive does operate.  At a low voltage setting, there is no buzz, but when I turn up the voltage, it sounds like a relay trips & a buzzing sound Begins.  Does this sound like the 9V regulator issue that you are describing?  If so, would I solve the problem by replacing the upper, the lower, or both boards?  Where could I take readings to verify it to be the culprit?

PS: You are one of the individuals that I was thanking in my earlier post.  I appreciate your expertise & willingness to help.

Best regards,

George

Oldham4 & GGG - thanks so much for the excellent info you have supplied. An updated chip seems to be the obvious first step and also a good call in the long run anyway. I'll crack on and post an update later. Thanks again, David

All,

  I have had a problem with a St Fe El Capitan F3 set engine.  I purchased the reset chip kit from Western Depot in California.  The kit includes the chip, new battery and tool to change out the chips in the board.  They cost less than 30 dollars from Western Depot, but the availability is limited everywhere.

Jesse

The reset chip is different then the chip in oldham4's post.  I had a locomotive (30-1113-1) go into the deselect state and a quick call to MTH got a new chip shipped my way.  Put it in and away the locomotive went.  Per advice from GGG to make sure it was the chip before I ordered one, I put a chip from a different locomotive I had (A NH EP-5.) into the Dreyfuss to see if it'd work, and it did so I knew it was a chip problem.  That's the nice thing about the PS-1 stuff, it's almost all interchangeable.  If you have another PS-1 equipped locomotive and are comfortable doing so, swap the chips between the two and see which work.  If that solved the problem on the GS-4 then you know what you need.  If not, then swap the top boards, and then the bottom boards.  Also, all PS-1 tenders are interchangeable, so if you have another PS-1 steamer, just swap the tenders to make sure it's not the locomotive.

Thanks texastrain and sinclair for the latest info. I'm waiting to hear from MTH regarding the upgrade chip (to be on the safe side!) and am still trying to locate a reset kit. Western depot have sold out but I've got emails out to a couple of others. Unfortunately the product locator service on the MTH website is a little out of date as it's showing dealers with stock which has actually sold out. Regards, David

Just make sure the 2M/4M jumper is the same for the two engines you're swapping chips between.

That does sound like the regulator.  Change out the bottom board.  If that solves it you can send me the bottom board and I can repair it.  The regulator is an adjustable one, so at low voltage your getting a reasonable voltage out, but at higher track voltage it doesn't regulate and your getting high voltage over driving the audio amp.

For info, the "Make PS" kit that is sold to consumers is only for one specific symptom.  When the board makes 3 Clanks at start up.  That is the only issue that chip was made for.  It can occur when a battery is very weak.

All,

  With the problems I have had, as others also, with the PS1, finding a solution is paramount to keep nice, detailed engines running in the roster.  I very much like and enjoy the many MTH engines I have, diesel, steam and electric types.  The PS2 and PS3 systems have given me no trouble.  So, with the PS1 I have swapped out the PS1 with TMCC and RS systems.  I have done so on a Big Boy, GS4 and yesterday on the El Capitan F3 #20, all in the Premier Line.  I still have several engines with PS1 and have, so far, experienced no problems with.  The TMCC-RS from ERR have worked the easiest for installation and have different sounds than others from Lionel, Digitronics, etc.  Depending upon your specific problems, there are solutions for each of us to explore.

Jesse

Thanks again, texastrain - the Gs-4 is the only PS1 loco I've got and it looks great with the matching set of lighted passenger cars. However, I also bought a PS2 Imperial Big Boy from a forum member on this side of the pond which is just fabulous. I shall probably stick with PS2 for future purchases! Regards, David

 Can you send a picture of the installed chip?  Your issue is not the chip and many times these chips have already been upgraded.  So getting a new chip may just be a waste of $30 MSRP and $10 shipping.  G

Why not upgrade to PS-2, especially units with smoke?  Than it is fully integrated.  G

Hi GGG, fair point! As the chip has a 1996 code on it, I'm assuming it is the original. The loco, box and packing are totally spotless, as are the wheels & pick up rollers so I'm sure it has been hardly used. Here is a pic of the fitted chip - what do you think? Thanks, David  PS the red tape is mine - I removed the black one when I was having a look for loose connections etc!

G,

  As I have been able to determine, and I did explore that route, to change over to PS2 is higher in costs and more labor/electronic intensive.  I have all functions intact, smoke, F/R couplers, headlight on/off and directional indication, full sounds (not same as Lionel TMCC), great low speed creep, and with full use of all TMCC Cab1 functions.  Do not get me wrong, I am complete in my satisfaction of the PS2 engines I have in my roster.  But, for the purpose of an upgrade from the older, malfunctioned PS1, the ERR make of Command Control and RS was very simple, and less expensive than what I had found with a PS2 upgrade.  And, as you can see from the photo I attached, it all fits in very well.  I have put the new functions F3 St Fe #20 through the paces for the past two days, nice running and a very nice looking F3.  I am pulling 13 California Zephyr 18" aluminum cars with no problem.  As I stated, the slow creep and slow start is amazing, the throttle up and sounds associated prototypical.  I had been pulling this consist with the DL109 AA units #50 and #52, with PS1, and the F3 ABA does even better.

  I have engines from all periods, all USA manufacturers, and was very glad when I purchased my first MTH product in 1995.  It simply boils down to a preference of operating systems, I believe.  I have some Weaver steam engines with PS1 installed and they also run fine.  But, should I require to upgrade in the future, due to ease of installation and costs, I feel Command Control is my choice. The future of O Gauge and the reliability is an issue we all have interest in, will make our choices.

Thank you much for your input,

Jesse

Phooey on a PS-2 upgrade. Upgrade to TMCC with a Cruise Commander from Electric Railroad. Easy to install and you will never look back.

Actually I have a few customers that don't like them and I have been upgrading Lionel with PS-2.  So I guess it depends on your point of view.

As far as cost, it is less with PS-2 if you match capability.  Cruise and Sound and couplers.  Plus the added reed switches and magnets for steam versus integrated chuff and smoke with PS-2.  G

It is the label that matters not the year on the chip.  That could be a new chip.

The ID fault is when the engine won't start up or will have sounds but no motion.  If you try to reset you can't advance beyond Reset position 1 (1 ding).  G

Blimey, GGG - this leaves me fresh out of ideas! Just to re-cap, all I get on applying power is a loud buzzing which doesn't really alter with voltage setting. No bell sounds or chirrups at all, so I can't work through any reset options. None of the controls on my MTH Z1000 set up have any effect. The only thing working is the headlght & smoke unit, which are taking power from the track. In a previous post you mentioned the 9v regulator - where exactly do I find this and would that fit these symptoms? Any further help would be really appreciated! Regards, David

It is the regulator that has the brass mount attached.  Do you have another PS-1 bottom board? 

Just swap the top over to test.  If it works the bottom can be fixed and I would assume the adjustable regulator failed.  If the noise follows, move the other top board to the original bottom board and swap chips.  G

No, I don't have any spare PS1 boards, but I'll definitely follow your advice. I've ordered a new chip from MTH and while I'm waiting for it I'll try and source a spare board (or two!). Thanks again!

GGG,

  As you and I both stated, it is a matter of preferences.  With the StFe #20 F3s I refer to, the problem Spamcan is having is a lot as I had experienced.  I did purchase the reset chip and gave that avenue a try, no good.  Next, I swapped the chip out with one from a RK GS4 to investigate further... no change.  Next, I did swap out the entire top board with the one in the GS4... no change.  So... I changed out the bottom board, also.... same result.. nothing different.  I even used the reset chip in the GOOD GS4 board to see what effect it may have.. NADA.  I did consider, for a very short time, to remove the top/bottom boards from the MP Texas Eagle E6s I have and try that.  But, I decided, wait... I am not to be going through all my running MTH engines to attempt figuring out the problem with the St Fe F3s.  I had the TMCC/RS boards I acquired from Electric Railroad for less than $160 total, shipping and all.  I had already installed the same for steam in the Big Boy I had with great, satisfying results.  And, the steam kit comes with the magnet and reed switch, along with all else you need, for the same costs. And, I did not have to change out/upgrade the tether already in the engine.  Also, with the steam upgrade, I can use the Big Boy UP tender with the Weaver engine I have, an FEF #8444, which I bought with PS1 in it.  When I use the TMCC/RS installed tender with the Weaver 4 pin tether, same as the Big Boy, I have all TMCC and RS capabilities with the Weaver FEF, and any other PS1 engines I use with it.  So, with one tender I can run multiple steam engines with my CAB1 and TMCC/RS.  I am not certain what a PS2 upgrade costs, but I read it was approx. $250, I didn't purchase, so I cannot say with authority.  Also, the PS2 requires more than a 4 pin tether, does it not?  Do change to PS2 would require a tether upgrade to go from PS1 to PS2, is that correct?

  Again, thank you for your informative input, sir.

Jesse

I would say your getting lucky that you can use a TMCC tender on different manufacturers engines.  Usually for TMCC you want AC power transferred from Engine to Tender (2 Wires), motor 2 wires, and headlight and smoke control 2 more wires.

OEM Lionel puts R2LC with motor driver in the engine and sounds in the tender so you only need 4 wires.  2 power wires to tender and coupler and tender light wires so 4 total.

PS-2 is 180 MSRP and $160 to MTH club members.  Yes it uses a 10 pin, but for MTH it is a direct replacement of the 4 pin.  They are sized similarly.

So the big advantage if your not wetted to any one system is that PS-2 integrates your smoke chuff and puff.  ERR upgrade can't.  And no reed switch.  So you can select chuff count via DCS.

So for a MTH engine and any other that used PS-1 or QSI systems it is a very easy change out of the harness. 

Also PS-2 has tach driven cruise, ERR requires the cruise upgrade which pushes price over the $200 mark with sound.  Plus back EMF, while good, is not the same as tach controlled speed control. 

But ERR is a great system to add if your a TMCC person, or you have a non flywheel motor or AC motor.   G