MTH Union Pacific F-3

ctomita posted:

In the latest "MTH S Gauge 5 or less In-Stock List" they include 35-20026-3 Union Pacific F-3 A-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered). Unless the Powered and Non-Powered versions came from China on different boats that should mean the Union Pacific F-3a are now available. Has anyone seen any other evidence of this?

Craig

Hi Craig,

     Although I have not seen the latest lis of the less then five I have been watching the availability of the Santa Fe and the UP F-3's. MTH has both in their position and the are listing them available through them. It will only be a short time and the LHS will be notified of their shipping to them through Invoices. Thank you for the current posting of less then five MTH.

Don

Donald Payer posted:

ctomita posted:

In the latest "MTH S Gauge 5 or less In-Stock List" they include 35-20026-3 Union Pacific F-3 A-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered). Unless the Powered and Non-Powered versions came from China on different boats that should mean the Union Pacific F-3a are now available. Has anyone seen any other evidence of this?

Craig

Hi Craig,

     Although I have not seen the latest lis of the less then five I have been watching the availability of the Santa Fe and the UP F-3's. MTH has both in their position and the are listing them available through them. It will only be a short time and the LHS will be notified of their shipping to them through Invoices. Thank you for the current posting of less then five MTH.

 

Don

This continues to be an enigma.  According to the latest release announcement: http://mthtrains.com/news/001c

Only one of the powered Santa Fe F3's is currently available.   The other powered unit?

Messing up a one car funeral comes to mind...

Rusty

http://mthtrains.com/35-20024-1

I have a pre-order for the 35-20019-1 Santa Fe.  So far no word from the dealer that it has arrived. It IS strange that the news announcement only mentions one of the 2 powered A units. I would be very annoyed if I had ordered the "wrong" A unit and had to wait while the other one was available.

Craig

ctomita posted:

I have a pre-order for the 35-20019-1 Santa Fe.  So far no word from the dealer that it has arrived. It IS strange that the news announcement only mentions one of the 2 powered A units. I would be very annoyed if I had ordered the "wrong" A unit and had to wait while the other one was available.

Craig

As would I.  I ordered both powered SF A's, the powered B and the unpowered B.

Rusty

Found a message on my answering machine from my LHS.  My Santa Fe F3's are finally in!

The irony is after waiting all this time, I probably won't be able to make it up there this weekend, so I'll have to wait another week...

Rusty

Talk about delayed gratification

Rusty Traque posted:

Donald Payer posted:

ctomita posted:

In the latest "MTH S Gauge 5 or less In-Stock List" they include 35-20026-3 Union Pacific F-3 A-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered). Unless the Powered and Non-Powered versions came from China on different boats that should mean the Union Pacific F-3a are now available. Has anyone seen any other evidence of this?

Craig

Hi Craig,

     Although I have not seen the latest lis of the less then five I have been watching the availability of the Santa Fe and the UP F-3's. MTH has both in their position and the are listing them available through them. It will only be a short time and the LHS will be notified of their shipping to them through Invoices. Thank you for the current posting of less then five MTH.

 

Don

This continues to be an enigma.  According to the latest release announcement: http://mthtrains.com/news/001c

Only one of the powered Santa Fe F3's is currently available.   The other powered unit?

Messing up a one car funeral comes to mind...

Rusty

Well Guys,

     I picked up my UP #35-20024-1 & #35-20027-1 at my local Hobby Shop (LHS) today. They are just gorgeous and I hope thy will run just as good. I know they will. Everything was in the packaging as SHS had even though each unit had its' own box. Great detail and add on details to complete the Scale package. Now I am waiting my Santa Fe AB units coming from Bill Parr. That will take a little longer.

   Good luck with yours I am sure they will be soon for you too.

Don

Yes! I received an email this morning that my Santa Fe F3 has arrived at the dealer. I had asked him to test it with MTH's DCS Remote Commander, since that is how I intend to use it (passive mode).  I have a TMCC Cab-1 and 8 Legacy locomotives but have been waiting until I have the F3 to decide if I want to buy the full DCS system.

Craig

Don,

Now that you have the MTH Union Pacific F3 A unit in hand, does it have the body part below the red stripe and above the fuel tanks painted yellow? The MTH pictures show yellow paint on those sides and on the foot stirrups. SHS painted those sections gray. SHS also used the later Union Pacific number system for their F3s that the company adopted in February, 1948. MTH uses the earlier numbering system that began in December 1946 and lasted until February, 1948, from what I can gather. MTH numbers are in bold for the following Union Pacific ABBA consists:

1404A - 1446B -1447B -1405A         (1446B is unpowered)

1406A - 1448B - 1481B - 1407A

1428A - 1470B - 1471B - 1429A

1440A - 1480B - 1481B - 1441A       (1441A is unpowered)

You can't always go by the catalog illustration.  This holds true for MTH and Lionel.  Many images are Photoshopped paint jobs over an undecorated unit.  I recall seeing a photo on an MTH display and the skirting was properly painted grey.

BTW, SHS didn't get the UP's quite right either...  The fuel tanks were black, they should also be Harbor Mist grey, I repainted mine.

I really should repaint the trucks silver as my railroad is set in the late 1950's but I prefer the grey trucks.

Rusty

TOKELLY posted:

Don,

Now that you have the MTH Union Pacific F3 A unit in hand, does it have the body part below the red stripe and above the fuel tanks painted yellow? The MTH pictures show yellow paint on those sides and on the foot stirrups. SHS painted those sections gray. SHS also used the later Union Pacific number system for their F3s that the company adopted in February, 1948. MTH uses the earlier numbering system that began in December 1946 and lasted until February, 1948, from what I can gather. MTH numbers are in bold for the following Union Pacific ABBA consists:

1404A - 1446B -1447B -1405A         (1446B is unpowered)

1406A - 1448B - 1481B - 1407A

1428A - 1470B - 1471B - 1429A

1440A - 1480B - 1481B - 1441A       (1441A is unpowered)

Hi TOKELLY,

     Yes! The area between the red stripe and the tanks on mine is Harbor Mist Grey as I thought it should be. I am an American Flyer Operator an Collector but I can appreciate the scale side of S Gauge when it come RTR. I really like the detail and the realism of the Hand Held remote control especially since it is AC.

    I didn't know the numbering of the SHS since I only could afford one of the SHS F-3's so I bought the Southern Pacific Black widow A&B units. That is all my budget could afford at that time. If the MTH would have come out sooner I could have bought more but I now am very limited on my spending. I only have the funds for the two I ordered and everything else will ave to wait. for the future when I can save some more. So thank you for the information on the numbering systems used by both SHS & MTH.

    Happy railroading to all.

Don   

Thanks, Don. That confirms what Rusty saw. I noticed that the black and white builder's plate on the MTH graphics is different from the black/blue/red plate on the original SHS models. S Helper Service offered four of the Union Pacific F3s in the later, post February 1948 numbering system:

• 1401 -- 1400B from the later numbering system
• 1402 -- 1402B

This would mean that an ABBA consist of UP F3s with these numbers would have been a combination of four locomotives separated from their original ABBA 4-unit consist as delivered from EMD. I have 1401--1400B, and I plan to buy the MTH 1441B unpowered unit for an ABA set. The fact that it is unpowered will allow me to combine it with American Models UP GP9 and GP35. While that is not unprototypical, its number would be unprototypical because the MTH number is from the original 1946-1947 deliveries and numbering system.

I try to keep a scale look to my layout, but I'm practical enough to use American Models track and switches with high-rail wheelsets. The reason is two-fold: 1) so I can also run the American Flyer set I have treasured since Christmas, 1952, and 2) I can afford the new Lionel/American Flyer Y-3, Challenger, and modern diesels without having to invest in new wheels. AM, SHS, Lionel, and MTH provide models with details once reserved only for very expensive brass. Plastic bodies and tall rail don't bother me--I can afford them and resist the urge to count rivets, but I do like to know what is more accurate.  

Y'know, I never really gave the builder's plates much thought.

It looks like the changeover from the rectangular builder's plate to the oval one occurred sometime during the F3/E7 production (1945-1949.)  I couldn't locate exactly when the change happened, I'm sure someone out there knows.  I'm guessing around 1947, because the Train of Tomorrow and Texas Special E7's were built in that year, the T.S. E7's have the rectangular plate, the T.o.T. E7 has the oval.

Here's the beloved UP 1402 again:

Notice it bears the rectangular plate (Heavens!  Another ding on the faithful SHS model .)  Also notice the "A" has been patched out...

Meanwhile, here the 1441 is bearing the oval builder's plate.

Either way, I'm not gonna worry and get all nit-picky about it.  I've decided one can go nuts thinking about such things. 

I'm going to stop thinking now...

(BTW, notice the 1441 also has the "passenger" pilot...)

Rusty

1441 was the last unit of the first order, E-818, from Union Pacific. According to Utah Rails, this locomotive was supposed to be 1441A, but EMD renumbered it for UP at the factory before it left in February 1948. (In which case, there never was a "1441A"; so I may have to "patch out" the A if MTH applies it to the engine.) EMD would have applied the builder's plate sometime in January or February 1948, so the new oval design was available at that time or even before that time. UP 1402 arrived in May, 1947, so the change in builder plate design was sometime between May 1947 and January 1948.

Anyone who might notice and be bothered buy such "flaws" would probably already be apoplectic at the height of my .148 rail. On the other hand, such information could be invaluable for cocktail parties. Once I start the explanation of such discrepancies, guests would be so bored that I could go back to the basement and run trains without being missed.

Question:  How do the MTH units compare to the original SHS F-3's, which they were copied from.  Except for the DCS, are there any noticeable improvements. Rusty's SHS F-3's look pretty darn sweet and I always considered the SHS F units to be some of the most correct in any gauge. Don did a great job on them. 

BH

MTH's F3's are virtually identical to SHS's.  There's only one major tooling change I can see and that's where SHS had the rear door hinged to access some switches, whereas MTH made the whole rear door assembly removable for access.

The MTH F3's weight about 3 oz. more than a Lenz DCC equipped unit, no doubt to the DCS wizardry contained within.  Scalifying the MTH F3 is exactly the same as scalifying an SHS unit.

Of course, I don't have a UP to compare against a UP and my friend's NYC units went back home. (Sorta had to pry them out of my fingers...) but I'll be picking up my Santa Fe's tonight.

Here's the NYC's for a refresher:

Rusty

I just got my UP non-powered A and have been comparing it to my SHS F3.

The paint job has some changes. It is darker and is a perfect match to the UP AM budd cars. The point of the grey at the top of the engine extends about an inch further and is rounded instead of pointed. The yellow now extends around the back to the rear door. The tank fill and gauge are now red, the tanks are grey not black, and it has an F at the front of the engine. The grab iron at the front is now grey not silver and other rear bar is also grey not back like the SHS. I think I got them all?

The lighting is led and is bright with good color. The marker lights are red. I can't comment on lighting control as I am running it with LocoMatic where the number, marker, headlight, non flashing mars, and interior light all come on together. One very interesting thing to note is that the lights stay on fully for almost a minute. Is there a rechargeable battery in there?

There were no instructions in the box , guess none needed for the non-powered?

There is also another set of knuckle couplers in the box?

This is a very nicely done and looks to be of the same excellent quality that the SHS is!

From what I understand the class lights are red on the non-powered A's, while green on the powered A's.  SHS used red/green LED's for the class lights, which would change with direction.  MTH just illuminates them from the numberboard lights.

There's probably a super-cap inside to keep the lights on over dirty track.  That's why they stay on for a bit when power is removed.

Rusty

I have put some good sized caps on my led strip conversions but they are no where close to this. I think some exploration inside is in order.

Rusty,

Should the non-powered A have a mars light?

logcruiser posted:

Rusty,

Should the non-powered A have a mars light?

Don't know, but I would guess not.  

In the "Features" section of the description for the non-powered units, it only mentions headlight, while the Mars light is mentioned for the both UP and SF powered units.

Rusty

I removed the rear door of the non powered A to find a potentiometer to adjust the lights, a switch to power off on, and a switch to turn off the headlights only. Not sure what the SHS may have had. Did they even make a non powered A?

SHS had no non-powered locomotives. 

There are some switches behind the rear door on the SHS units, but I don't recall offhand what they're for.

Rusty

The switches at the back of the SHS F3s and F7s allowed users to make consists that worked together better. For example, there was a switch that turned off the bell and horn function but left the engine sounds so that a powered B-unit would not also sound its built-in horn. Another switch reversed the start direction of a trailing locomotive so that an A-B-A unit would move in the same direction when the trailing A unit had its switch changed from that for the lead A and B units.

I was just curious to see if the new MTH F-3's were going to kill the value of the SHS locos, but I see nothing stated here that makes me believe this. The MTH's have some improved electronics and some painted details, but all in all it looks like a wash.

Butch