My dream/nightmare layout... July Update 7/31/19 Big Boy month!

Thank you so much Carl. As I have said before, half the fun of this hobby is sharing it with others. Living away from the great train population, I don't get many visitors, so this is my way of sharing. Without all of you, this project would feel empty and pointless. I keep pushing forward toward Labor Day 2018 when the National Narrow Gauge Convention will be in town. There's lots to be done in the next two and a half years, so stay tuned. It's just going to keep getting better.

Elliot....this has got to be one of the most interesting progress threads ever here on the forum.   I am continuing to enjoy it!!

Alan

OGR Ad Man posted:

Elliot....this has got to be one of the most interesting progress threads ever here on the forum.   I am continuing to enjoy it!!

Alan

Alan where have you been hiding? Come to think about it Your Alter ego has been MIA too.

I have been kind of out of the hobby for a while but your story is the first one I looked for recently. Hope to get to MN sometime. Thanks for the inspiration

Ray

Thank you Alan, that means a lot to hear you say that. This topic has turned into something of a giant serial, next installment always on the last day of the month, late in the day. Most guys see it on the morning of the first.

I'm not usually a topic starter around here, but this month I've started a couple that have turned out to be very fun and informative. They were intended to solve problems I was having, but it seems that a number of others may have benefitted from those discussions as well. They turned into brainstorming sessions. The internet is amazing and this forum is special!!! This is where the guys who know, gather.

Some of the guys here seem to think there's an article in my future. I keep reminding them I have no scenery. I'm doing my best to get this whipped into shape by Labor Day weekend 2018, when the National Narrow Gauge Convention will be held here. It would be even better, if a good chunk was presentable 6 months earlier.

The February update is just a few days away. Lots of interesting stuff to tell. Stay tuned.

I have watched your progress only sporadically, but I am impressed with your zeal for the ambitious project. I have been too busy to run trains as often as before but your layout inspires me to get back to my undone scenic projects. Thanks for posting. 

OGR Ad Man posted:

Elliot....this has got to be one of the most interesting progress threads ever here on the forum.   I am continuing to enjoy it!!

Alan

It's illustrative of just how much work goes into a layout of this size, very impressive!

Good to see you back Ray. I was just thinking about you the other day, wondering where you were. Visitors always welcome. The only bad time might be the second half of May. Could be out of town, not sure yet. Waiting for my daughter to make up her mind.

Thanks Pennsynut, I love hearing when people find inspiration or motivation from my work. I feed off all the great comments here, and the energy just flows. It would be kind of silly to build something like this without sharing it. This topic has become the perfect platform for doing just that.

Thanks John, you and I have had a very fun and interesting month. Your help and insight have figured prominently in the progress.

Hi Elliot -

Regarding the placement of the buttons (whichever type you select) to actuate the magnets -

If you do not have enough space in some areas to accommodate all the 'buttons', or if you simply do not want to mount them on the fascia, how about a hinged panel?

I envision a panel just large enough to accommodate the buttons (for example, 6" x 10") with its top 10" edge hinged to the bottom edge of the fascia. When not in use, simply 'fold' the panel up and away under the layout where it can be held with a magnetic catch, or two. When ready to use, pull it down to 60° or 45° or whatever angle you like, and hold it in place with a lid support as used in small boxes, etc.

Just a thought . . .

Alex

Alex, sounds like you missed the ending of that topic. John came up with a great idea, then Nick came up with a twist on my own idea, and we arrived at the perfect solution. I've cut to the chase for you with a permalink here.

Elliot,

I had read all of that and think the capacitive buttons is a neat idea - I may use that method for guests to actuate some of the accessories on my layout.  I was just suggesting a method of where and how to mount the panel with the buttons. 

Alex

Just incredible!

Peter

Sorry Alex, I guess I misunderstood. I think with the carriage bolt heads, we overcame the space issues too. Everything should fit on the fascia now. I might have to get a little creative with my graphics. Looks like Red Wing will be the first to get them, since all but two of the magnets are already installed.

You can use smaller bolts so that they don't take up as much space on the fascia, it'll probably look a bit nicer if they don't overpower the track diagram.

Capacitive buttons and relays, oh my. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Elliot, the complexity of your layout is beyond my comprehension. Some of the things you are doing I didn't even know about. Relays for switches, now I hear about capacitive buttons. How much of your amazing layout is going to be automatic/computerized and how much immersion will you have with running the trains like an engineer? How many trains will run at the same time? Are you going to have just operating sessions? How many operators? Eeeeyiiiii !

Eliot

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can use smaller bolts so that they don't take up as much space on the fascia, it'll probably look a bit nicer if they don't overpower the track diagram.

For a professional look, get the stainless steel type carriage bolts, as they will retain their new appearance.  Plated bolts won't look so pretty after extended wear from handling.

Bruce

Yeah John, I was thinking something like a 3/16 carriage bolt in varying lengths from about 2" and longer. Much smaller head on that. The only drawback I can see to this system is I have dry hands. I'll have to keep a bottle of hand lotion in the train room so I can uncouple the trains.

Eliot, I know this whole thing makes your head spin, and you certainly are not alone in that feeling. Maybe if I break things down into more manageable elements it will be easier to understand, and not seem so daunting.

The layout has two basic types of track, mainlines and everything else (yards, industrial, branch line) just like a real railroad. The computer and its associated hardware and software are the exclusive domain of the mainline. The rest of the track has nothing to do with it. That track just gets power and TMCC signal, very normal and most basic.

Now we did just add a little technology to the non-mainline portion with those controls for the uncouplers, but that is just a stand alone system, and also has nothing to do with the mainline. With those, once I get the first one working, it's just repeat, repeat, repeat. It doesn't make it more complicated, just more work.

That brings us to the mainline. I want to operate it like a real railroad. In order to do that, it requires three distinct systems:

• Switch control
• Detection
• Signaling

This is where the computer comes in. C/MRI stands for Computer / Model Railroad Interface. This is the hardware component. Through some electronic magic, it takes a serial line from the computer and talks to a bunch of on/off switches. There are two types of these switches: inputs, which read the on/off status of devices on the layout (detection), and outputs, which turn layout devices on and off (switches and signals).

JMRI stands for Java Model Railroad Interface and is the software component of the system. It is perfectly paired with C/MRI and reads from and writes to the inputs and outputs. Using JMRI Panel Pro, you describe your track plan in a way that the computer can understand. Kind of like an ultra sophisticated version of Scarm. This becomes your dispatcher's panel. From there you assign the appropriate C/MRI inputs and outputs to the devices you've drawn. When that's done, the computer knows what to do.

These are the basic building blocks. Once they are in place, the possibilities are endless, limited only by your imagination.

I would like for the computer to run some mainline trains while human operators run others and do switching away from the mainline.

I'm not sure how many trains will be running a one time. I have 9 Cab-1's, but with the computer and some LC+ engines, maybe 15? When I start to get into operations, I'll get a better feel. Eventually, I'll need a crew.

The layout is designed for operating sessions, though I do have ways to just run trains for display. I have to admit, just running trains isn't really my thing anymore.

Your hands don't have to be wet for capacitive sensing to work, you don't need to wash them before uncoupling.

We have a small storage compartment on the headboard of our bed. Touching the piano hinge controls the light above. I have a difficult time sometimes operating that light.  Aren't we talking about the same principle here?

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

We have a small storage compartment on the headboard of our bed. Touching the piano hinge controls the light above. I have a difficult time sometimes operating that light.  Aren't we talking about the same principle here?

You probably need an earth ground connected to your body.

Moonman posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

We have a small storage compartment on the headboard of our bed. Touching the piano hinge controls the light above. I have a difficult time sometimes operating that light.  Aren't we talking about the same principle here?

You probably need an earth ground connected to your body.

I thought I already had one of those Carl. I just wave my hand over my engines and they go.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Moonman posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

We have a small storage compartment on the headboard of our bed. Touching the piano hinge controls the light above. I have a difficult time sometimes operating that light.  Aren't we talking about the same principle here?

You probably need an earth ground connected to your body.

I thought I already had one of those Carl. I just wave my hand over my engines and they go.

Your standing on the floor when you do that. 

The body mass is all that should be required for a properly operating capacitive touch sensor.  You do have enough body mass, right Elliot?

If that's the case John, enough to light up St Paul.

Email said they should be here Tuesday. Busy with train related activities this weekend, all 3 days starting tonight. All rare events. Will make a couple attempts at getting that R2LC. I always like having the parts around for projects, even if I'm not quite ready to start them.

Elliot,

Maybe a bit too late, but the female (nut) half of a Chicago Screw would make a nice touch button. On the mating side (male), instead of using the standard threaded stud, you can use any screw with the proper thread pitch, and a suitable length.

They usually are available plated, natural brass, etc.

Alex

Alex, those are some of my favorite hardware. I've used them to to hold my bookshelf units together, along the north wall of the train room. For this job, however, a simple carriage bolt will have the same look on the fascia, but using a couple of plain nuts and a washer on the back side will make it easier to connect the wire.

Happy leap day guys, been another busy month working on the railroad.

Joe was here a couple of times, and the wiring is pretty much complete. Next up, get the detection wires back to the panels. When that is done, work on C/MRI and JMRI can get started.

February started out with me rewiring the south power power supply. I was trying to get all the wires to travel under the aisles through a pipe, and off the floor. Now everything is nice and neat.

I bought a Legacy base almost 4 years, but I could never get it to work. The trains all took off at full speed.

If you want to read the whole story, click here.

This will be where I keep my bases. Eventually my computer will join them over here.

I started the superstructure for Dayton's bluff. The Masonite will be a rock face, and above that the bluff will slope up to the backdrop.

I use the Lionel auto rack  to check clearances. All good.

This camera will watch trains in the 3 track yard under the bluff.

Here we see the length of the yard. This opening will be hidden under a bridge.

I finally ventured inside my legacy base, and found the problem. It turned out to be a loose nut. That was all, but it took a while to figure it out.

While I was in there I managed to break a wire off the charger switch, so I fixed that too.

I've been having TMCC signal issues since day one. This is the beginning of a signal strength meter test car.

That conversation begins where the base repair ends, here.

An R2LC board is at the heart of the car.

All of the connections are made... and it doesn't work. The board was bad!

I've been gathering parts for various projects. I bought these targets and LED's a while back.

I just got these dwarfs from WeHonest on eBay, to add to the mix. Not bad for the price.

There will be a lot of places where it will be difficult to see the trackside signals. I plan to mount repeaters on the fascia.

I spent a lot of time setting up the cameras and stringing the wires for them. I now have two systems, and have located the hubs just below Red Wing.

This looks like a mess, but it was worse before I got the excess spooled and hung up. There was one slight problem, the new hub didn't work!

We saw a couple cameras earlier, here are a couple more.

I was into a lot of projects this month, including how to activate uncouplers. This was a fun topic, and we came up with a great solution.

You can read about it here

Finally, my wife found this neat LED string online. I'm hoping that they throw off enough light for the cameras to stay in color mode, but I won't know until the hub gets fixed.

I am so tired! I put in at least one hour every day this month, and most days 3 or 4.

Alot of work done for the SHORT month, you go man! One month closer to finished. Good month!

Always interesting to read. Elliot what type of cameras do you have mounted? Where did you purchase them, do you have a link?

thanks,

Another month, another progress report.

Thanks again for sharing Elliot. Always a good read, actually all the threads on your project are interesting.

Thanks guys.

Last year when long time Model Railroader Magazine editor Andy Sperandeo passed away I shared this bit of his writing on the forum's memorial topic. It was quite well received and was a fitting tribute to the man. Given the nature of this project, I have found these words to live by, and keep this enlarged copy on my wall where I can see it.

George, both security systems came from Sam's Club. The first one was an 8 camera setup, some off brand called Defender. The second system is a Samsung 16 camera setup, but only included 12 cameras. Not only will I have to pay for the last 4 cameras, but I'm going to have to pay for the base to be repaired because I allowed the warranty to expire before I ever tried it out. A word to the wise, try things when you buy them, make sure they work. I am extremely guilty of not heeding this advice, but this $200 lesson may be just what it takes.

Roman, those were a couple of fun side topics running this month. I'm glad I made them separate from this one, because they had a broader appeal, and deserved to stand alone. Both still have some life left in them, especially the TMCC signal topic. That one could go on for a while, as I'm just getting started with the signal debugging using the meter test car. The parts are now all ordered for the uncoupler magnet project, and should be showing up in the next couple weeks. Time to get some magnets installed, so we can hook some up when they come in.

Elliot, THANKS for another outstanding update on your mega layout.  And your idea to post separate topics on some of the issues you encountered was wise.

Thanks, again.

i have been away from a computer for the last few weeks, and upon return around 300 emails waiting

culled through, and this thread was one of the first i went to

never a disappointment

thank you elliot

j

In a word - incredible. THANKS!

Thanks again Elliot. It makes my small empire seem much more manageable and demands to know why it hasn't progressed further.

Best

Ray Marion

Wow & Congrats / Like how you keep all the wires organized.

Gary

You're welcome guys! Without all of you, this topic wouldn't mean much. I'm glad you enjoy reading about what I'm doing as much as I enjoy sharing my progress with you. March should be another good one, as I have lots of "irons in the fire".

Looks like a busy month full of accomplishments. Nothing spectacular (for you, maybe) but slow and steady. Trains will soon be running and Mr PC will be busy directing things.

all of it is pretty spectacular to me.

March was an interesting month, as I split my time between my own layout and the Twin Cities Model Railroad Museum. I joined that organization 30 years ago, and helped build their 2 rail layout, but left in late 1991 to do enterTRAINment, and never looked back.

There was a topic over on the 2 rail forum, about the Museum being forced to move, due to rent escalations. For months, I had been posting updates regarding their status. You can read the whole story here. Another forum member made a rather nasty remark, which was subsequently deleted, in essence challenging me to help them move. After thinking about it for a few days, I realized that he was right in principle, in spite of stating it badly.

It was a sad but exciting time. We had the approximately 2400 square foot layout reduced to pieces in about two weeks time, moved it to the new space in about 18 hours one weekend, and got the sections reassembled all in 31 days. There's still a lot of work left to do. Track and scenery need to be repaired, and the whole layout is going to be rewired. The goal is to have it ready to run by November, but I think it will done sooner.

I have rejoined the organization, and will probably spend a couple days a week over there going forward, now that the bulk of the move is done. The other layout in their collection that interests me, is a Dunham Studios custom built piece. That one should be arriving in the new space in April, and will need some rework to fit.

So probably half the month was spent working at the museum, but I still managed to find over 60 hours to work on my own. Joe came over twice, the first time we cut a sheet of 3/4" plywood into what amounted to 1x4's to be used for the helix rebuild project, which I actually completed.

Here you can see the early stages of the rebuild. The whole point is to widen the space between the supports to allow longer cars and engines to get to the upper level.

These supports in the front will eventually get a Masonite backdrop wrap with the backs of the Main Street, Red Wing  buildings.

This photo is from 2004, and shows my old test car. The Williams luxury liner is a 20" car, but now the new 89' cars better that by more than 2", and scrape the old supports.

The new supports are now more than 7" apart. The Challenger and Big Boy will have no problems here.

I took my TMCC signal test train for a run around half the layout. It is being pulled by an LC+ loco, which goes anywhere. I like it, but am not fond of the controller, too toy-like.

A reading of 34 is a marginal signal level. A lot of engines don't function well that low.

I drew these schematics last month, but this month I added my signals so I could get a head count.

This is a detection panel, one of 4. Joe and I are working to identify and terminate the wires from the field.

The new camera system is finally working. It came with a one year warranty, but by the time I was ready to use it 13 months had passed from when I bought it. I had a little debate with Samsung as to whether they were going to charge me to fix it, even though it never worked straight out of the box. They finally agreed to cover it, so it only cost me the one way shipping of $20. Turned out it was a manufacturing defect, and nothing I did or could have done.

Here's the finished helix. Next up, finish the wiring, which shouldn't take too long, because much of it is done already.

I'll be back downstairs tomorrow.