Need info. on Ives Wide Gauge wheel sets

Harry,

I've just taken a look at mine. The earlier narrow motor with diecast wheels has the extended lugs with a square boss on both geared and non-geared wheels. The wider late motor has wheels without the extensions and square lugs on both geared and non-geared wheels. I examined 10 Ives engines in my collection before responding. In only one case was the non-geared square lug reduced in thickness. The majority of the wheels were replacements from MEW, but some were original. Unfortunately I don't as of yet, have any standard gauge Ives steamers in my collection.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA 

The distinction between narrow-field and wide-field Ives motors applies only to electrics: the 1134 steamer had a completely different motor, built into the locomotive frame.

Although the Ives steam loco had an entirely different motor from the electrics, it took the same wheel as the wide-field electrics;  with square lug on all 4 wheels.  This applies to the 1927 green cast iron 1134 as well as the 1928, 1929 and 1930 versions of the die-cast 1134.  Same wheel as the wide motor electric, all 4 with square lug.

The earlier 1132 steam loco had cast iron wheels.

The narrow-field electric took a wheel with a longer hub, but with the same square lug on the inside of that hub.  All 4 wheels have the square lug.

Don't go by MTH.  They redesigned the Ives motor to be able to use parts from their Lionel build-a-loco.  The MTH Ives motor has longer brass bushings in the motor side plates, so they had to lose the square lug on one side.

The RichArt reproduction Ives motor is identical to the original wide-motor, it takes all 4 wheels with the square lug.

The only case that I could find of the square lug being taken off the wheel was on MTH.

I think you only need to make 3 wheels:

          The electric narrow-motor with the wider hubs and square lug on all 4 wheels.

          The electric wide-motor without the long hub, and with square lug on all 4 wheels.

          The steam version which is the same as the wide-motor electric but with the different casting for the steam side-rods.

Eric, the one case you have of the square lug being taken off, can you determine the manufacturer of the wheels?  Are these maybe MTH replacement wheels?

david

David,

The wheels with the square lug reduced are MEW wheels on a late wide motor in a #3236 with the double bead Lionel based body. I have couple of other #3236 exactly like this, but the hub is as normal with short square lugs. I also found McCoy wheels on one wide motored engine with square lugs only on the geared side and short round lugs on the non-geared side. I have replaced many of the wheels on my engines, but some where done before I acquired them and at this late date I have no idea which ones I did.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA

Would the Greenberg Wide Gauge Ives book show gear/wheel photos? 

Art, that's the first place we looked, unfortunately it doesn't get into wheel lugs, even in the written descriptions of the motors.  The new Greenberg Lionel SG book delves into that kind of excruciating detail, maybe when he does the new Ives book it will also...

Eric, I looked at some more of my Ives and I do have one original that does not have the square boss on one side.  What's weird is that I don't really see why; it looks like the same motor and same bearings.  But obviously if the square boss was there, the wheels would gauge too wide for the track.   It's a fairly late 3237, wide motor obviously. 

This is going to make it hard for Harry.  I suppose he could make a 4th wheel, the 3 I mentioned plus an electric wide with no square boss, and either sell the wheels individually or offer sets with and without the boss, it gets more complicated.  

You could offer all the sets of 4 wide motor electric wheels as 2 with and 2 without, but then the user would have to know to put some washers in most of the time.  

As far as I know (and according to Greenberg) there was only one wide-field motor, the "Type IV", which came out in 1927 to replace the narrow.  But there were 2 basic versions of the narrow motor: the first was the Gauge 1 with longer axles, and it just used loose bushings to make up the width difference inside cast iron wheels.  The second version ("Type IIIa" according to Greenberg) didn't come out until 1926, and used the longer extended round hub on the diecast wheel.

Harry, I wonder if one option would be to offer only the later wide-field motor version of the electric wheel, and put a couple of bushings in the bag to use with the narrow motor?  Then you would still only have to make 3 wheels; the steam, and the wide electric with and without square boss. And the right size brass bushing?

david

The castings for the steam motor I have now are a round hub w/ sq. gear lug. I am most likely going to package as a set w/ 4 identical wheels. The castings for the electric loco are all w/ a deep round hub w/ sq .gear lug.  I will most likely package this as a set w/ 4 identical wheels for a 'narrow' motor.  I am going to the caster tomorrow to check if a narrow hub insert is also available for the electrics.  This could be used for the 'wide' motors.

I want to thank all of you for your input, so we do not waste our time and efforts in mfg. something not usable.  Harry

Harry Henning posted:

The castings for the steam motor I have now are a round hub w/ sq. gear lug. I am most likely going to package as a set w/ 4 identical wheels. The castings for the electric loco are all w/ a deep round hub w/ sq .gear lug.  I will most likely package this as a set w/ 4 identical wheels for a 'narrow' motor.  I am going to the caster tomorrow to check if a narrow hub insert is also available for the electrics.  This could be used for the 'wide' motors.

I want to thank all of you for your input, so we do not waste our time and efforts in mfg. something not usable.  Harry

Sounds like a plan.  Thank you for providing these Harry, there is always a demand.  

Any time you want to make some more of the Lionel #33 wheel, I'm ready.  There probably isn't much call for them, but when you need them, nothing else will do!

david

Lets keep this simple, just like Ives did.

1.  There are only TWO different types of the die-cast wheels:  Narrow motor OR Wide motor.

2.  The wheels in a set of 4 are all identical (Same wheel casting 4x per set).  So you would have sets (4 of the same wheel per set)  for Narrow motors AND sets of 4 for Wide motors.

3. Narrow motor wheels should have spokes only, no hub to attach drive rods. and the taller (thicker) gear mounting hub.  These wheels were found on narrow motor electric type locomotives from approx. 1925-1927.

4. Wide motor wheels should all have spokes plus a lug to mount drive rods and the shorter (thiner) gear mounting hub.  All wide motor wheels have the drive rod lug regardless of loco type (steam or electric).  Ives generally only tapped the lug (6/32 threads) after determining if it was going on a steam locomotive.  These wheels were found on wide motor electric and steam type locomotives from approx. 1927-1930.

5. Cast iron wheels are not part of this discussion.  Lionel motors on Irvington produced "Ives" labeled items use Lionel wheels

Harry, if you have any more questions, or want me to bring you examples to York, please let me know.

(pics are of new old stock MEW sets.  Original Ives wheel pics can be provided as well)

NARROW (on left)          WIDE (on right)

WIDE MOTOR HUB DETAILS (shorter round hub height, because the motor block was wider)

NARROW MOTOR HUB DETAIL (taller round hub, because the motor was narrow)

AWESOME INFO SHARING!  :-)

How about if I complicate things: Was at a friend's house last night (with an awesome collection), trying to understand the genesis of the drivers used on the Lee Lines 4-8-4. They are 1-7/8 inches across the metal tread.

Measured an Ives 1134 - 2-1/16

Early AF steamer (1134 bodied, modified for AF motor) - 1-7/8" diameter over the metal tread.

Did Ives ever used the smaller driver or is it just the AF locos? (and do you stock the latter, Harry?)

Thanks

Jim

Jim Waterman posted:

How about if I complicate things: Was at a friend's house last night (with an awesome collection), trying to understand the genesis of the drivers used on the Lee Lines 4-8-4. They are 1-7/8 inches across the metal tread.

Measured an Ives 1134 - 2-1/16

Early AF steamer (1134 bodied, modified for AF motor) - 1-7/8" diameter over the metal tread.

Did Ives ever used the smaller driver or is it just the AF locos? (and do you stock the latter, Harry?)

Thanks

Jim

Ives drivers have to be used on the Ives motor because of the lug and gear configuration;  Flyer drivers can only be used on Flyer motors for the same reason.

Even during the transition period, Flyer never used the Ives motor, so Flyer never used the Ives drivers – and Ives never used the Flyer motor, so Ives never used the Flyer drivers.

Hennings stocks the Flyer drivers.  

hojack posted:

Jim Waterman posted:

How about if I complicate things: Was at a friend's house last night (with an awesome collection), trying to understand the genesis of the drivers used on the Lee Lines 4-8-4. They are 1-7/8 inches across the metal tread.

Measured an Ives 1134 - 2-1/16

Early AF steamer (1134 bodied, modified for AF motor) - 1-7/8" diameter over the metal tread.

Did Ives ever used the smaller driver or is it just the AF locos? (and do you stock the latter, Harry?)

Thanks

Jim

Ives drivers have to be used on the Ives motor because of the lug and gear configuration;  Flyer drivers can only be used on Flyer motors for the same reason.

Even during the transition period, Flyer never used the Ives motor, so Flyer never used the Ives drivers – and Ives never used the Flyer motor, so Ives never used the Flyer drivers.

Hennings stocks the Flyer drivers.  

Thanks Dave, can always count on you for a quick and complete answer

Jim