new Lionel for 2 rail

Freakin awesome. 

One more step in the "right" direction. Come on Lionel, can 2 Rail engines be that far off? You're almost there.

Thanks for posting Joe.  This is another indication that our 2-Rail voices are being heard and that we obviously have a market presence.  2-Rail O Scale is definitely not dead and, in reality, may actually be growing or at least announcements like this with more-and-more 2-Rail RTR options on the market will definitely help fuel 2-Rail growth.  Lionel will most likely use the sales numbers on these 2-Rail conversion kits as a barometer to see if it is worth it to them to start offering motive power in 2-Rail as well.   I think if Lionel were to enter the 2-Rall market, they could continue along the Weaver offerings with a high-end  GP38-2 with road specific details - maybe even follow their built to order model so they don't have to worry about getting burned - (that is if Lionel ended up with those GP38-2 molds as part of the Weaver closure).

Scott K.

Austin, TX

As I posted on that same thread, however, we need a variety of side-frames and journal box styles.

Good Day Joe,

Thanks for bringing this information to  forum!

Thanks Mike for the overview!! Great explanation!

Regards,

Swafford

Considering what our friend Bob Delbridge has done, he has proven that tight curves and smaller spaces CAN be done in 2 rail..........if you want to! I am guessing anyone who really wants to move to two rail will do so sooner or later and anyone that prefers 3 rail.......................will not.

It's simply a matter of choice, and it is becoming easier the more technology advances, and  vendors are taking notice.

Simon

Thanks Joe for posting.   Mike didn't say anything about how easy to couple the new design is.   I wonder if these will couple with a more gentle touch?

I look at the kits and only see one set of bolsters each? Mike said above that they would have 2 sets each?

I'm grateful and very pleased that Lionel will be doing the 2 Rail conversions.  Their scale stuff is awesome and I've purchased a few of their cars that I've converted using Atlas components i.e. trucks.  I would also encourage Lionel to look into two rail locomotive conversion kits.  

With the scale fidelity above the hood Lionel could take the cake if they mastered a 2 Rail conversion kit for the trucks and the pilots on locomotives.  Make it easier for me and I'll spend more with you.  

Case in point:  I would LOVE to get a pair of the upcoming Southern SD45s, but the conversion looks prohibitive.  I would also go for 2-3 F40PHs, but once again, it looks to be a challenge.  Doing a six axle and four axle conversion kit would allow 2 and 3 railers to get what they want.  

As far as tight curves go, engineer the six axle trucks so they can pivot from the inside wheels next to the fuel tank and also have ready mount drilled holes etc, so a modeler could re-install the pivot in the center wheel if he/she had broader curves etc.   

Thanks Simon!

Converting to Kadees, even if folks keep 3-rails, is a plus IMO!

But if folks want to also convert their engines and rolling stock to 2-rail (and still use hi rail wheels on their existing rolling stock and engines) they'll need insulated wheel sets.

Plus...will TMCC, Legacy, and DCS work in a 2-rail (DC) environment?   I think DCS will work on DC current, will TMCC and Legacy, or will they have to get new power supplies and/or internal electronics?

I use battery power and kept the hi rail wheels, also use Kadees on everything, but I don't need insulated wheels using battery power.

So, will one of the new trucks allow the use of Kadees AND keep the hi rail wheels?

If someone wanted to pull up the center rail, will insulated hi rail wheels be available (so they can keep their hirail track)?  Some may want to go to DC, DCC, or keep their existing internal electronics, is that even possible?

Bob Delbridge posted:

Thanks Simon!

Converting to Kadees, even if folks keep 3-rails, is a plus IMO!

But if folks want to also convert their engines and rolling stock to 2-rail (and still use hi rail wheels on their existing rolling stock and engines) they'll need insulated wheel sets.

Plus...will TMCC, Legacy, and DCS work in a 2-rail (DC) environment?   I think DCS will work on DC current, will TMCC and Legacy, or will they have to get new power supplies and/or internal electronics?

I use battery power and kept the hi rail wheels, also use Kadees on everything, but I don't need insulated wheels using battery power.

So, will one of the new trucks allow the use of Kadees AND keep the hi rail wheels?

If someone wanted to pull up the center rail, will insulated hi rail wheels be available (so they can keep their hirail track)?  Some may want to go to DC, DCC, or keep their existing internal electronics, is that even possible?

Hi Bob,

Legacy/TMCC will not work on DC. AC only in the 3 rail models so far. Legacy does have the ability to use DC or DCC as they have done in S scale, but to my knowledge they don't have the DCC capability in O yet.

They way I read what Mike wrote the answer to your question about the trucks I believe is yes you should be able to mount Kadees with HiRail wheels. But I don't believe they are offering insulated HiRail wheels.

In a conversation with Jon Z he mentioned that the new LionChief electronics will have Bluetooth capability and could be made to work on battery power. That may be more up your alley?

But AC power is not incompatible with 2-rail.  All you need to do is rewire the pickups for either AC or DC. You can even do what I do and have a switch at the transformer.  I do have a DCS locomotive that runs on 2-rail, either AC or DC, depending on nothing more than my mood.

Insulated 3-rail wheels are trivial - you just have to order enough from NWSL to make it worth while.  They have the wheel profile and the tooling.  But why?  2-rail wheels look a lot more realistic, and can handle tight curves.

jonnyspeed posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Plus...will TMCC, Legacy, and DCS work in a 2-rail (DC) environment?   I think DCS will work on DC current, will TMCC and Legacy, or will they have to get new power supplies and/or internal electronics?

Legacy/TMCC will not work on DC. AC only in the 3 rail models so far. 

 

Actually there have been a number of 2-rail TMCC/Railsounds offerings, about 10-12 years ago by both Atlas and Weaver. Here is a 2-rail TMCC Atlas RS-1 powered by a 1946-ish Lionel transformer (in the background).

On one occasion, Matt Jackson and I had this Atlas 2-rail TMCC loco and an MTH 2-rail steamer (I forget if it was 3/2 or 2/3) running DCC on the same large loop of Atlas track at the same time.

When these locos stopped being produced by Atlas and Weaver, I suspected Lionel was getting ready to enter the 2-rail market... Just didn't know it would take 10-years.

BTW, aren't these 2-rail convertible Lionel models call LionScale?

Thanks guys!

We have to keep in mind that swapping 3-rail to 2-rail wheels is a breeze on rolling stock, but not so easy on engines.  Also, from what I've experienced, 2-rail wheels do not play nice with 3-rail switches.  Sure they'll go thru them, but they drop down into the frog.  Of course if a person converted his engines, rolling stock, and removed the middle rail then he/she could also shim the frogs so this wouldn't happen.

But we're still leaving out the guys that run on less then 072 curves.  A few may get away with using Kadees, but I've had scale 40' cars with separate ladders/grab irons catch on each other on 054 curves.

And even if we could get Lionel, MTH, and the rest to make an AC to DC converter box, external to the engine (as an accessory to the transformers), if the center rail is removed the wheels would still have to be insulated (unless you go BPRC).

I'm sure I can probably get anything to work the way I want it, but there's still a lot of folks that run conventional, many of whom would not like to be forced to go another route.  But then again, maybe it's time to force the issue.  Just think where we'd be if the internet was not available?  This wouldn't even be a discussion.

lionel1946 posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Plus...will TMCC, Legacy, and DCS work in a 2-rail (DC) environment?   I think DCS will work on DC current, will TMCC and Legacy, or will they have to get new power supplies and/or internal electronics?

Legacy/TMCC will not work on DC. AC only in the 3 rail models so far. 

 

Actually there have been a number of 2-rail TMCC/Railsounds offerings, about 10-12 years ago by both Atlas and Weaver. Here is a 2-rail TMCC Atlas RS-1 powered by a 1946-ish Lionel transformer (in the background).

On one occasion, Matt Jackson and I had this Atlas 2-rail TMCC loco and an MTH 2-rail steamer (I forget if it was 3/2 or 2/3) running DCC on the same large loop of Atlas track at the same time.

When these locos stopped being produced by Atlas and Weaver, I suspected Lionel was getting ready to enter the 2-rail market... Just didn't know it would take 10-years.

BTW, aren't these 2-rail convertible Lionel models call LionScale?

I'm fairly certain those engines you speak of used the TrainAmerica studios boards. Not the same as factory TMCC or Legacy boards. I could be wrong, but I've never seen a Legacy O scale engine run on DC under legacy control. S scale yes, O scale no.

As you point out 2 rail TMCC isn't anything new. I was going to go 2R TMCC until Atlas dropped it. Had a bunch of engines on order that they canceled.

I am considering removing the Legacy electronics from my 0-8-0, sending it to Baldwin Forge and Machine to be 2 railed after which I will reinstall the Legacy electronics. Then I'll have a 2 rail Legacy 0-8-0 Why? because I highly prefer Legacy over DCC, and I hate the 3rd rail.

Bob, I have no problems with Kadees on 40' cars on 24"r. Medium shank couplers, zero derails.

lionel1946 posted:

Actually there have been a number of 2-rail TMCC/Railsounds offerings, about 10-12 years ago by both Atlas and Weaver. Here is a 2-rail TMCC Atlas RS-1 powered by a 1946-ish Lionel transformer (in the background).

On one occasion, Matt Jackson and I had this Atlas 2-rail TMCC loco and an MTH 2-rail steamer (I forget if it was 3/2 or 2/3) running DCC on the same large loop of Atlas track at the same time.

When these locos stopped being produced by Atlas and Weaver, I suspected Lionel was getting ready to enter the 2-rail market... Just didn't know it would take 10-years.

BTW, aren't these 2-rail convertible Lionel models call LionScale?

It was an MTH ATSF Hudson with hi-rail wheels (3/2) running in 2-rail mode with DCS and TMCC on the Atlas 2-rail track. I've since added a Blue Goose Hudson with scale wheels (2/3) to my stable which I occasionally bring out to the club layout. I have no idea why 2-rail TMCC didn't take off as there's no technical reason you can't run TMCC/Legacy on 2-rail track other than requiring AC track voltage.

I have a couple of Atlas 2 rail diesel engines with TMCC inside. I feel they sounded great for their day (still do) and ran good too. So the only thing I could think of is that people didn't want the proprietary system on their rails??? I know that some tried it. I've read a few liked it.

Maybe it was just that most people weren't ready to accept or even try it?

Maybe Atlas Gold diesels weren't sought after as steamers?

I guess a few questions are in order...

1) Are the wheel sets insulated on one side, as a minimum? If they are not, 2 rail guys still could not use them (and those cars!)

2) Are the wheels plated brass or are they steel?

3) Are the 2R wheelsets sintered (like present 3 rail wheelsets)? (I sure hope not)

3) Still do not know why the "thumbtack" was retained. The use of a smaller and more prototypical Kadee type coupler will make this thumbtack  more prominent.

4) Are the wheels and wheel treads RP25 NMRA standard? That is, correct flange height, tread taper, etc.

5) Are the wheels scale size (ie 33", 36", etc)

6) Is the overall length over axle ends and axle taper at the ends  (55 degr?) such that these wheel sets can be retrofitted to other brands of freight cars?

7) Is the bolster height such that these retrofit kits can be installed in other cars without the need to shim the couplers?

8) Do these retrofit trucks require a different/unusual mounting screw to attach the truck to the carbody?

9) What types of side frames will be available? Such as Bettendorf, etc.

I was informed over on the other side that there are two sideframes available now, 70-ton (roller) and 50-ton (friction).  I don't have the catalog to look at them, and Lionel's website is too big a pain to use for me to go looking.  So there is hope for a variety of sideframes.

Hudson5432 posted:

I guess a few questions are in order...

1) Are the wheel sets insulated on one side, as a minimum? If they are not, 2 rail guys still could not use them (and those cars!)

2) Are the wheels plated brass or are they steel?

3) Are the 2R wheelsets sintered (like present 3 rail wheelsets)? (I sure hope not)

3) Still do not know why the "thumbtack" was retained. The use of a smaller and more prototypical Kadee type coupler will make this thumbtack  more prominent.

4) Are the wheels and wheel treads RP25 NMRA standard? That is, correct flange height, tread taper, etc.

5) Are the wheels scale size (ie 33", 36", etc)

6) Is the overall length over axle ends and axle taper at the ends  (55 degr?) such that these wheel sets can be retrofitted to other brands of freight cars?

7) Is the bolster height such that these retrofit kits can be installed in other cars without the need to shim the couplers?

8) Do these retrofit trucks require a different/unusual mounting screw to attach the truck to the carbody?

9) What types of side frames will be available? Such as Bettendorf, etc.

I don't have a stake in this, but some of your answers seem to already be in this thread:

1: As these are two-rail conversion kits, I can't see any reason why the included wheelsets would not be insulated

3: The photos at the top of this page appear to be machined wheelsets

3a: (you probably meant this to be '4') My guess? The thumbtack is there because the cars aren't being marketed as 2-rail rolling stock, but 3-rail equipment that will accept a 2-rail conversion kit without making extensive modifications to the carbody. i.e. the thumbtack and 'lobster claw' go away when you apply the conversion.

6: I would call it a "bonus" if these wheelsets could be retrofitted to other brands' trucks. After all, Lionel isn't trying to drive adoption of 2-rail in general--they're just maintaining the market for the acquired Weaver tooling, and in the process broadening the market for the freight cars they make that are "scale enough" for the 2-rail world.

7: Same as 6, but change "wheelsets" to "conversion kits"

9: It's probably mentioned elsewhere, but the 70-ton trucks are roller bearing, and the 50-ton ones are the Bettendorf.

4 and 5 These are legitimate questions, but kind-of fall into the category of "They'd be nuts to go this far and drop the ball on those details". 

8: is a little more legit, but seeing as Lionel (as per Mike Reagan's remarks above) is aiming these  at both LionScale (former Weaver product) and their own scale offerings, either one product line or the other had some mounting modifications made to the bodies, or two different sets of hardware are included. I wouldn't expect the kits to work with non-Lionel/LionScale equipment, but stranger things have happened.

2: is probably the only actual unanswered detail in the thread thus far

---PCJ

Also note that Lionel has take a step backwards making locomotive wheels not removable from the truck block except pressing the wheels off the axles.  Don't understand the logic there.  I can't see how it would be cheaper to manufacture.

Also,  Lionel already has their own (really really bad) GP38-2 and the old K-Line GP38-2.  Weaver had previously retooled the bottom piece removing the fixed pilots so not really valuable to 2-railers anymore anyway.

Also note that Lionel has take a step backwards making locomotive wheels not removable from the truck block except pressing the wheels off the axles.  Don't understand the logic there.  I can't see how it would be cheaper to manufacture.

Did Lionel make many locomotives with removable wheel sets during the Modern era (1970 to now)?
The only postwar engine that comes to mind is the 1946 version of the 726 Berkshire.

jonnyspeed posted:

lionel1946 posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Actually there have been a number of 2-rail TMCC/Railsounds offerings, about 10-12 years ago by both Atlas and Weaver. Here is a 2-rail TMCC Atlas RS-1 powered by a 1946-ish Lionel transformer (in the background).

I am considering removing the Legacy electronics from my 0-8-0, sending it to Baldwin Forge and Machine to be 2 railed after which I will reinstall the Legacy electronics. Then I'll have a 2 rail Legacy 0-8-0 Why? because I highly prefer Legacy over DCC, and I hate the 3rd rail.

Bob, I have no problems with Kadees on 40' cars on 24"r. Medium shank couplers, zero derails.

If you can afford it I say go for it. I only convert locomotives that I either got dirt cheap or they are a model that I know will never be made in 2 rail but to each his own. The one really cool positive about converting a 3 rail locomotive is you are not increasing the minimum curvature required unless you add flanges where there weren't any but the only downside is conversions are not cheap.

I originally wanted to go 2R TMCC/DCS. I originally wanted everything the 3 railer had except the center rail but I had a lot of frustration with the 3 rail systems. Granted they can do wonderful things but my experience is both systems  always seem to not get the command to the locomotive when it matters most. As in a switch is in the wrong position or a collision is about to happen. Another negative for me was the original DCS signal issue where it would only pick up the signal from one rail. We all know this has been fixed but it was a real turn off for me at the time and put the nail in the coffin for me and 2R TMCC/DCS. I have found that DCC isn't as easy to program as the 3 rail systems but it gets the command to the locomotive when you need it. I am much happier now.

This was my reason for getting out of 2R TMCC/DCS. I think for a lot of other 2 rail guys the reasons were different. When I got into 2 rail (about 12 years ago) a lot of the guys I met that were into 2 rail were older and kind of set in their ways. Most ran straight DC but some did run DCC usually without sound or with HO sound boards piggy backed to O scale decoders. I think the straight DC guys didn't like 2R TMCC because it was AC only and the DCC guys didn't like it because they would have had to upgrade their collection of locomotives to TMCC and the TMCC boards back then were not that small as they are today. Fitting them in very small locomotives just wasn't going to happen. Although a little older (I think) I am closer to Johnnyspeed's age and I didn't fall into one of those categorys.

I had one Atlas 2R TMCC locomotive left and I converted to 3 rail. So now I have my only "3RS" locomotive.

It was unclear to me whether Lionel's target market for these would be 3 railers who want a more prototypical appearance by the use of "Kadee" couplers and these trucks but would continue to operate on 3 rail track. For them, wheels would not have to be insulated. For us 2 railers, at least one side would require insulation.

My question re RP25 and NMRA standards implied satisfactory operation through 2 rail turnouts vs the flange standards for those with 3 rail layouts.

As a result of less than satisfactory experience with zinc rot with another manufacturers trucks, I would like to replace the trucks on those cars but require info re bolster height and truck mounting to non-Lionel cars, so that was the reason for one question above.

IF the truck to carbody mounting was not common to other 2 rail manufacturers, I could replace the wheel/axle assemblies as a last resort, and this was the reason for my question re correct wheel diameter as well as length over axles. (In their history, another manufacturer shipped cars with too much lateral play in the wheel/axle assemblies. This was so bad that a kadee equipped car would be guided through a turnout, but the wheel sets would not follow and would hit the frog.)

I have had minor problems with "plated" wheels. For one thing, once the plating wears off these wheels get dirty very quickly.

I now understand that the thumbtack "disappears" with this conversion.

In retrospect specifically with regard to this thread and my questions, Lionel has always had a price premium over other manufacturers. If that is the case for these kits, I would probably just continue with what I do now re purchase of new cars and modify them for two rail.

I will give Lionel a "BZ" (Bravo Zulu or atta boy) for doing this, I'd like to know what their plans are for engine conversions (Kadees and wheels).

A few months back I bought a Lionel 4-8-2 and love it, great slow speed and appearance.  I converted it to Kadees and BPRC and am very pleased, and after a couple of other mods it looks great as a Seaboard Air Line Mountain.

do a search and see the videos that pop up under Lionel or TMCC on 2 rail....

Engineer-Joe posted:

Mike Reagan explained some things in another post "Lionel going backward with couplers" about new releases using older style couplers with the thumbtack. The conversion kits that will be coming that are listed in the back of the new Lionel catalog will convert their trucks to 2 rail. There are kits listed for the 50 ton trucks and the 70 ton with spinning caps. Their new trucks look to have a couple of screws to remove the claw and bolster assembly from the truck. I see they will be offered in 12 set pkgs too. The new catalog shows several releases with KD mounting also.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...with-couplers?page=1

 "

MikadoMember Digital SubscriberDigital SubscriberFORUM SPONSOR

9/20/169:05 AM

Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were. 

These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images). 

 

Mike

Thank you,
Mike Reagan
Lionel

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