New Mth Ready To Run Catalog...Thoughts On Going All Digital In Terms of Control?

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

SDIV Tim posted:

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

I strongly agree. I think Mth should just stick with the traditional transformer.

I think it's becoming inevitable for starter sets to not have a traditional/old school transformer.  The adding of what appears to be a scaled down TIU-1 with built in wifi unit to the new RTR sets is IMO a good idea considering that Lionel's LC+ engines also have a bluetooth feature and WilliamsBB will also be utilizing bluetooth for loco control.  From a quick read it also looks as though the new MTH RTR TIU-1 wifi system does away with the direct line of sight IR remote system that MTH used in its dcs remote commander setup.  I also imagine due to the use of the MTH wifi APP that the new TIU-1 wifi RTR setup has done away with the prior dcs remote commander problem of any engine utilized on the remote commander system would have its engine address locked into the #1 position making it difficult or cumbersome to reset to later operate that same engine on an upgraded full DCS setup.

I don't see a problem due to the lack of a traditional transformer and the need to have a "smart" device.  The target market generally has a tablet/smart phone or can obtain one for less than $100.  Furthermore, if someone does not have either a tablet or smartphone the added cost (<$100) can be rationalized or justified by knowing that the added device is a multi-tasker to many other new functions or APPS and not locked to one purpose of running trains.

SDIV Tim posted:

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

You can set speed control limits for each engine via the MTH APP just as you can with the full size DCS remote.  Even if you still use a flip phone for everyday use, you can find new low end no-contract smartphones (Tracfone) or tablets for under $50 sometimes even under $30.  You don't need to activate the phone's service - just use the smartphone app features.  A base Kindle is $40 and WalMart or BestBuy have various tablets at the same price point.

From MTH's description, it appears that the RTR system includes the wifi feature with 100' range.  So if you don't have wifi in your home, you don't need to go out and get a wifi router.

Applause manufacturers for embracing app technology common in most households as a way of introducing a hobby to the younger generation wired to smart devices.

Sure, there are pro's and con's to this whether its cost or operational control but lets be realistic of the times were in, the hobby must find means of growing with technology in order to remain relevant.

So they do not offer a choice?

I am waiting for battery/RC.

I think it is an excellent idea.  Starter sets are often for young people and so it should integrate with a smart phone, the way the rest of life does today.  

I am curious if I will have to buy the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit to run the train on my fastrack layout?, or does the locomotive respond directly to the app.....I currently run only Lionel but it will be tough to pass on the Canadian Holiday set

MTH has not offered starter train sets with the "traditional transformer" in quite a while. I see this as an upgrade to the remote commander. For those saying they would not hand their smart phone to a kid I have one question, are you serious? These kids are raised with a smart phone or tablet in their hands! My 7 year old son occasionally teaches me how to do things on my phone! The MTH app is not difficult to use and I see any modern kid having zero issues running trains effectively with a phone app.

Full steam ahead!

Once they get these systems get closer to perfection - we can start having cool controllers - kind of like what some video games have.

Take a look at this:  Raildriver.com

Its a controller for a train simulator - and would be "pretty cool" used for a real layout.

Add tactile feedback...

I think theres more to being digital than just wi-fi.

"I am curious if I will have to buy the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit to run the train on my fastrack layout?, or does the locomotive respond directly to the app...."

I believe you will need the $130 Explorer.  The app needs a wi-fi enabled DCS TIU equipped device to talk to.

Personally I think MTH is seriously reducing the potential audience for their starter sets.   Which have never been big sellers because they are high end and MTH's dealer network is probably less extensive than Lionel's. These new sets are $100-200 more expensive than LionChief sets to begin with. They are going to have street prices pretty close to or north of $400.  The typical LionChief set can be had for as little as $150-300.

These sets and DCS are  going to be less intuitive and more complicated for the rank beginner to work with, given that they need a smartphone or tablet, someone needs to download an app, and there is no physical control device included with the set.  In comparison, a dealer can sell a LionChief set,  and it includes a handheld digital command remote in the set.  And the loco will now also be operable by an app on a smart device (currently Apple iOs only). A loco and remote (or Bluetooth control device) that can be used on any future more complex layout or a  club layout.  So the Lionel set comes with the smart device operability AND a physical remote.

Handing a five year old a LionChief remote is zero risk, compared with a $400-700 smartphone.  It's not that a four year old cannot operate a smartphone. He or she is just more likely to bounce it off the concrete floor or get peanut butter or worse all over it.  And frankly, I use my smartphone for email, texting and other stuff a good bit of the day, so I don't want to turn it over to a four year old.  Call me lazy or ungenerous if you like .   The LionChief remote? You can replace it for about $40 with the universal remote.  So for the beginner without a smart device, or without a mildly competent technogeek to help, or with children or grandchildren under the age of say 8-10, the Lionel set is the obvious choice and much less of a financial commitment to boot. It's no less functional for basic stuff and sound, it's usable on any layout without further equipment.  Just not the high end of a PS3 loco.  And you have the capability of using your smartphone or tablet directly if you want with Bluetooth, no additional devices needed.  I don't see the 100 foot range MTH is touting over Bluetooth as a reasonable claim.  Who is operating a train from more than 20-30 feet away?  You can hardly see the darn thing .

The other side of the argument is that the MTH set has a PS3 loco with lots more capabilities than a LionChief loco.  It's more substantial in design and materials,  as are the rolling stock.  That accounts for the big price differential.  The track is not up to the quality and design of the track in the Lionel set, however.  But both locos can operate on a DCS/Legacy or conventional layout with the appropriate power supplies.  The MTH loco is probably going to last longer. 

For the established hobbyist with an interest in MTH these sets are probably an easy sell. For the new hobbyist or someone buying a set for around the tree,  or for a child, the Lionel set is the easy sell, in my view.  The Lionel set contains a physical controller that is intuitive, needs no setup, and is inexpensive to replace if need be.  It's less complicated, less capable and much less expensive.  Different strokes for different folks.

Provided the app and the wi-fi receiver are trouble-free and reliable this is a brilliant marketing strategy.

Pretty sure that families who can afford to let loose of $400+ for a toy train already have a goodly supply of "smart" devices to run it with, and for those who don't there is a ceaseless supply of obsoleted stuff to be had for cheap.

I'm a die hard conventional runner but I find this quite intriguing.

Pete

Landsteiner posted:

Handing a five year old a LionChief remote is zero risk, compared with a $400-700 smartphone.

Which is one reason they need to focus on Android development.

You don't need a 400-700 dollar smart phone to transmit the tiny amounts of data involved.

Android phones and tablets are cheap - a sub 50 dollar refurb - used just for trains - will do the job fine.

Landsteiner posted:

Handing a five year old a LionChief remote is zero risk, compared with a $400-700 smartphone.  It's not that a four year old cannot operate a smartphone. He or she is just more likely to bounce it off the concrete floor or get peanut butter or worse all over it.  And frankly, I use my smartphone for email, texting and other stuff a good bit of the day, so I don't want to turn it over to a four year old.  Call me lazy or ungenerous if you like .  

My point is really that most of these young kids have already handled smart phones or tablets pretty extensively already. We bought our son a Kindle Fire for $49 when he was two and loaded it up with games and movies. He has never broken the tablet and I probably have dropped it more than he has. 

Just a note:  You can still run these sets with the DCS Remote Commander 50-1033, which is only $50.  I am sure dealers would swap them out.

Another upside of the Wifi unit is that it can run more than one train.

I certainly understand all of the concerns posted here.

Dave

"Which is one reason they need to focus on Android development."

Agreed.  I'm sure Jon Z. is working on it, or a subcontractor.  Since somewhere near or more than half the smart devices outthere (phones and tablets) are Android, makes sense to get this done ASAP.  In my experience, Bluetooth is rock solid reliable for all sorts of things.  And cheap as dirt I gather for the components.  My experience with wi-fi is less so, although it gets the job done.  Be interesting to see how these systems work in typical convention centers with all the steel reinforced concretes and big steel doors and beams .

I love the idea. Usually when I think of starter sets I think of people getting into the hobby and introducing it to children. I don't think there is a child in this country over the age of 2 that doesn't know how to use a smartphone/tablet. I had a couple loops of track around the tree and my 3 yr old loved the WiFi app, especially blowing the whistle. Plus as others have stated you can buy an Amazon fire tablet for under $50 these days.

I assume the DCS Explorer unit it comes with will basically act as a TIU/WIU combo but for only one track?

I kind of wish I had known this was coming as its much easier for a temporary/seasonal layout. If I am correct it looks like it would have all the same features through whichever level of the app that you have. Does anyone know if you'd be able to use it to control track voltage to run conventional trains? Also theoretically if I had a couple of these set up on independent track loops, is there a quick way to switch between the different explorer units in the app?

I like the idea that the DCS Explorer will run all of my PS2 & PS3 engines, old or new. Nice to know that I can run an MTH PS2 engine made 15 years ago with the new DCS Explorer and have all of the same controls as I do with my WIU (Provided I have purchased the standard app). I bought a LionCheif RS3 loco about 3 years ago and it won't work with the LC universal remote or the new Bluetooth app.

My assumption here is that the WIU and the DCS Explorer operate using the same app, not separate apps like LCS and LionChief. I would even suspect that the WIU and DCS Explorer can be joined to the same network and operate together at the same time with the same phone/app.

I am looking forward to more details about this new device. Maximum amperage output? Will it support Super TIU mode? Will it run an AUI?

H1000

I like the idea of digital although, like H1000, I have the same questions specifically the AIU Support. If it'll work, that would be cool.  Maybe during York we'll learn more about this device. 

metsno1fan posted:

I kind of wish I had known this was coming as its much easier for a temporary/seasonal layout. If I am correct it looks like it would have all the same features through whichever level of the app that you have. Does anyone know if you'd be able to use it to control track voltage to run conventional trains? Also theoretically if I had a couple of these set up on independent track loops, is there a quick way to switch between the different explorer units in the app?

This is my theory based on the operation of the WIUs we have now:

You may not have to tell the app to switch between Explorers.  Think about how Super TIU mode will work with Multiple WIUs on a layout. The app will broadcast the signal to all applicable devices as long as they are all on the same (wireless) network. It will be the job of the Explorer(s) to relay the information to and from the engines & apps.

H1000

Landsteiner posted:

Personally I think MTH is seriously reducing the potential audience for their starter sets.   [snip]

 . . . For the new hobbyist or someone buying a set for around the tree,  or for a child, the Lionel set is the easy sell, in my view.  The Lionel set contains a physical controller that is intuitive, needs no setup, and is inexpensive to replace if need be.  It's less complicated, less capable and much less expensive.  Different strokes for different folks.

Time will tell.  In the interim, as a father of a 8 year old and 5 year old, I can tell you with absolute assurance that: (1) any family today that would be in the market for a train set at either the Lionel or MTH price point will have a smart phone or tablet (we either donate the old ones or keep them for the kids) that will run this set; (2) the use of an app with kids will make the product make more sense to this generation because this is how they do everything; and (3) it is not difficult to prevent a kid from breaking a smart phone or tablet (they are actually very hardy unless submerged in water or dropped unprotected on a concrete floor). 

This is not to say that the LC or LC+, as well as the new Lionel Bluetooth locomotives, won't also be successful -- I think that they will be. 

Anyone who thinks this is the wrong way to go is not connected with the younger generation at all.  A single device that interfaces with your environment is the way forward, the smartphone for now is that device.  From RC toys to automated houses it's all about single interface at your fingertips.

I find it ironic how you see so many posts about how to get the younger generations interested in the hobby, then in turn see so many posts putting down these generations and advancements in the hobby which are more likely to get them involved.

Which is it that you guys want?

Plus this DCS explorer unit is great.  Much cheaper way to command control multiple locos and will work for those who don't need/desire the advanced controls a full TIU and AIU setup affords.

TexasSP posted:

Anyone who thinks this is the wrong way to go is not connected with the younger generation at all.  A single device that interfaces with your environment is the way forward, the smartphone for now is that device.  From RC toys to automated houses it's all about single interface at your fingertips.

I find it ironic how you see so many posts about how to get the younger generations interested in the hobby, then in turn see so many posts putting down these generations and advancements in the hobby which are more likely to get them involved.

Which is it that you guys want?

Plus this DCS explorer unit is great.  Much cheaper way to command control multiple locos and will work for those who don't need/desire the advanced controls a full TIU and AIU setup affords.

Yes! I agree with this completely! We have robots and drones that are all wifi enabled in Toys R Us that are selling like crazy! The younger generation is definitely working to a single point interface!

TexasSP posted:

 

I find it ironic how you see so many posts about how to get the younger generations interested in the hobby, then in turn see so many posts putting down these generations and advancements in the hobby which are more likely to get them involved.

Which is it that you guys want?

 

Bingo!

There's a lot of dissonance on a variety of topics on this forum.

This is one of them. 

"Plus this DCS explorer unit is great."

No argument there.  Legacy and DCS are north of $250-300 each.  Not an easy sell. That's presumably why Lionel went to LionChief and LC+ over the last few years.  And now to Bluetooth.  Inexpensive command control that keeps starter set prices south of $300, sometimes far south .  The DCS explorer is MTH's answer to LionChief/LionChief Plus, and a pretty good one.

The question here is should a set come with EVERYTHING needed to operate it? These sets do not.  No amount of arguments that everyone has a smartphone or tablet, or cheap ones are available as separate sale changes that simple, but potentially important factor.   A Lionel set comes with a physical command control remote, and with the new ones with the capability of Bluetooth smart device control.  That's a marketing advantage it seems to me.

What makes it, at least to me, a marketing advantage is that Lionel's sets are priced so that even folks with modest interest or  modest financial means, can purchase a set.  To get into DCS, you need to spend $400 or $450 or so in a set.  If you prefer a handheld remote, you either go with the economy, non-command option of the Remote Commander.  This could be, as suggested,  as an upfront dealer exchange, or perhaps at additional cost of $50. Or you might go, if you are enthused and adequately funded ,  with DCS, at $300 more. To get digital remote command control in a Lionel set, you get the whole deal (albeit at lower overall quality and sophistication in locomotive and rolling stock in most cases) for $300 or less; no additional purchases needed.

For example, over the last few years I've donated a few dozen train sets to our children's hospital at Christmas.  Lately, I've been giving inexpensive Thomas LionChief or similar sets purchased during December from Lionel or Amazon at $80-150 each.  I'm not generous enough to donate a $450 MTH set, mainly because it's so much less bang for the charitable buck.  It's an easy choice for me.  Three or four kids provided with sets vs. one.  Most families are probably going to use it around the tree in any case, once a year for a few weeks.

I'm guessing the typical family is much more likely to spring for a $150-250 starter set with a physical remote, smart device Bluetooth capability,  as opposed to a $400-450 set with no remote and with smart device wi-fi capability.  For the dealer, the sale should be easier, doesn't require any explanations, no need to assist with downloading the app, finding a smart device to buy inexpensively, or other time sinks.

MTH has decided to go full bore carriage trade on their starter sets. Dealers will have to deal with the consequences, or perhaps some will simply choose to go with the lower quality, much less expensive, somewhat less complicated Lionel sets.    Time will tell.

I don't see much of a change.  You still need a transformer, and if you look at the catalog, you'll see this statement.

And every M.T.H. train set locomotive has the same Proto-Sound 3.0 sound and control system as our most expensive Premier line engines.

It seems the big change is they didn't supply the cheap IR DCS-RC and substituted what appears to be a superior option. If, for some reason, you'd prefer the old DCS-RC, they can be had very cheap, certainly not hundreds of dollars, I bought a couple of them for $30 NIB.

I think one issue is people might be put out that they have to supply the "remote", time will tell if that's a problem.  Smart dealers should be ready to substitute the DCS-RC and take the DCS Explorer in trade one-to-one.  I'm sure there'd be a market for the DCS Explorer, everyone wins.

A while ago my teenage nephew was at my house and I was showing him my layout and all of the different controllers involved in its operation. When he saw the DCS & Legacy remotes he said that all of this looked "Old School" and he wasn't very interested.  After I showed the different apps available, his interested sparked and he's off saving for his own starter set.

He was diligent in his research and almost completely blew off the LionChief set because it had a picture of the "Old School" remote on the box and missed the fact the set could also run on a Bluetooth app.  The mere picture of the LC remote on the box nearly scared him away. 

A little over a week ago he was back at my house and wanted to know about expanding an LC into Legacy and DCS controlled layout. The answer was simple, it doesn't. You'll either be switching between apps/phones, or ditching your initial investment at a loss to upgrade.

A lot of this boils down to how manufacturers want to market their products. I do have appreciation for MTH always considering the backwards compatibility with their products. Very few MTH engines (PS1 & LocoSound) are not (fully) support by DCS, WIU, and now the DCS Explorer.  I am willing to bet that my nephew can buy a used PS2 set and the DCS Explorer for a lot less than a new LC+ Bluetooth and have the "Old School" remote to boot.

H1000

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 Smart dealers should be ready to substitute the DCS-RC and take the DCS Explorer in trade one-to-one.  I'm sure there'd be a market for the DCS Explorer, everyone wins.

That's a pretty good deal for the dealers when you compare the features and cost of the IR Remote to the DCS Explorer.  But hey, give the people what they want!

Keystone posted:

SDIV Tim posted:

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

You can set speed control limits for each engine via the MTH APP just as you can with the full size DCS remote.  Even if you still use a flip phone for everyday use, you can find new low end no-contract smartphones (Tracfone) or tablets for under $50 sometimes even under $30.  You don't need to activate the phone's service - just use the smartphone app features.  A base Kindle is $40 and WalMart or BestBuy have various tablets at the same price point.

From MTH's description, it appears that the RTR system includes the wifi feature with 100' range.  So if you don't have wifi in your home, you don't need to go out and get a wifi router.

Ah, Mr. Negative STRIKES AGAIN!  The very same problem could occur with the TMCC "red control" knob or the DCS handheld.  Show me a household that does not have a tablet or smart phone.  

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. MTH has answered this in a big way with this release. You now have a fully functioning PS3 engine and interface. According to the reading I have done the DCS Explorer now gives you access to the majority, if not all, of these features in the starter set. The remote commander system gave you very limited access to the DCS functions.  The Explorer system allows control and programming of multiple engines. Remote commander did not. We are getting hung up on the fact a smart device is required in order to run these starter sets. I really think this is going to be on a non-issue for most folks!

Goshawk posted:

One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. MTH has answered this in a big way with this release. You now have a fully functioning PS3 engine and interface. According to the reading I have done the DCS Explorer now gives you access to the majority, if not all, of these features in the starter set. The remote commander system gave you very limited access to the DCS functions.  The Explorer system allows control and programming of multiple engines. Remote commander did not. We are getting hung up on the fact a smart device is required in order to run these starter sets. I really think this is going to be on a non-issue for most folks!

Precisely. I think it's not only a great starter kit for someone getting into the hobby, but someone who's been on the fence about getting into DCS. Now instead of buying about $480 worth of equipment (TIU, Remote & WIU) you can spend slightly less than that and get a complete train set and a very good introduction into DCS that will operate everything a full DCS system would. 

It looks like the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit is $129.00 by itself.

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)

I just fired up an old Android tablet and installed the Wi-Fi DCS app - looks pretty straight forward.

Is that all you need to get into this?

Roving Sign posted:

It looks like the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit is $129.00 by itself.

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)

I just fired up an old Android tablet and installed the Wi-Fi DCS app - looks pretty straight forward.

Is that all you need to get into this?

Think so!

Ok - I see...the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit 50-1035 is a 2017 catalog item - and not available yet.

When do these things become available?

Swafford posted:

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

Just wondering . . .  Did you think that "New" Coke was a great idea? 

Pete

Texas Pete posted:

Swafford posted:

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

Just wondering . . .  Did you think that "New" Coke was a great idea? 

It wasn't Pete, that's why they went back to "Coke Classic".

"

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)"

Does the Explorer include a voltage source (wall wart or similar)?  I must have missed that when reading the announcement.  If not, should be relatively inexpensive.

"One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. "

I would say a lot of that is a misunderstanding of the capabilities and intentions of LionChief products. They are entirely operationally compatible with Legacy.  The only caveat is that you cannot use the Legacy system to control them.  You use the entirely compatible LionChief remote that comes with every set or loco.  If having an extra remote for anyone to use is incompatible, then it's incompatible.   But mostly, my take, is it's not any material incompatibility but a lack of hands on experience with and understanding of the system.

I think the continued compatibility of PS2 and PS3 locos is a plus for the MTH system, but it increases the expense strikingly for beginners, as the price of the sets demonstrates.  High bar to get a consumer to spend $400-500 on a "toy" with relatively limited play value compared with other devices in that price range.