Newbie Intro

Hello Malcolm,

the first generation Weaver models of the RS3, FA2, GP38 all had a horizontal drive that is, in my opinion, better than the Atlas/Roco drive on the F9.

the Red Caboose GP9 will accept this drive. there's a machined brass deck frame made that really stiffens the chassis and add weight

these components are easily obtained both new and second had, are quite simple to work with, and can be easily modified to run P48 wheelsets.

stay away from the original center tower design of the Weaver drive. use either a single tower or dual towers, which distributes motor torque to both trucks rather than through one truck to the other.

You can get P48 wheelsets from NWSL (NorthWest ShortLines) to fit these gearboxes. they also have a geared transfer gearbox to replace the chain and sprocket drive. others such as Jay Criswell have made cog belt drive options as well. in fact you can make up your own cog belt drive with purchased components.

others more experienced than I can help with your steam engine conversion or which engines to look for purchase.

malcolmcelyn posted:

 Hi guys. I'm Malcolm, from across the pond. Wales, UK.

Then, confusion....       P:48....     Wow!

I don't want to stray too far off the NKP/Delphos track, but this P:48 bug has bit hard. All that waffle has brought me to a question (or several!).

To make a simple P:48 project, at as low a cost as possible and as quickly as possible, would involve converting a cheap locomotive into something more accurate. Now I've read about Red Caboose GP9 body kits and using Atlas F9 chassis. I could try that and even upgrade the drivetrain later to get good running. That's fine as far as it goes. But are there any similar combinations around for other diesels? I've heard of cheap-ish RS3's and even GP35's and GP38-2's, (although my preference is for early 1st generation locos, RS-3, RS-11, GP-7, GP-9 and F3's - A's and B's). and the BIG question, what about steamers? Any 2-8-0 Consolidations or 2-8-2 Mikados that are cheap 3-rail that can be modified? Would the conversions be expensive?

Malcolm,

WELCOME to P48!

"John Galt" mentioned P48 wheels from NWSL, but those offered by Jay @ Right-O'-Way (formerly Protocraft)  are superior. The NWSL wheels are flat on the back, and have no backside detail.

Right-O'-Way P48 Wheels

Here's a set of the Right-O'-Way wheels mounted on Overland axles...

Converting an older Weaver horizontal drive FA, RS3, or Red Caboose GP9 is a great place to start.

An inexpensive 3Rail steamer "could be" converted to P48, but you are better off with an early brass loco like a US Hobbies NKP Berkshire. Again, P48 is not just about wheel profiles and track gauge, it's about an entire modeling philosophy, and there are very few "cheap" 3Rail steam locos that meet that criteria. A Weaver 2-8-0 or an AtlasO 0-6-0 might be a worthwhile candidate.

I specialize in P48 conversions and custom building, and have Clients all over the US and in 11 foreign countries.

Please let me know if I can help,

Matt Forsyth

Forsyth Rail Services

Thanks Chris. An RS-3 would suit me perfectly! There are two problems I can foresee. First, getting anything 0-gauge American is a pain in the neck here in Blighty. Getting one from the States is the obvious answer (postage and import duty aside!) but then that leads to number two. It'll be hard to tell if I'm buying a center tower or not! Guess I'll need to be very careful. Thanks for your suggestions though. Very useful. 

Thank you too Matt. I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about P:48 not being about track and wheel standards. Here in the UK, I've had some experience of P4, the proto-version of 4mm/foot scale, with its 18.82 mm track gauge. I think it's about trying, to the best of your ability, to achieve the standards of track and wheels in every aspect of the model, from construction through to operation and all that fits between. Not sure my abilities will be good enough, but you can only give it a go. 

An RS-3 or GP-9 seem most likely. I think I'd better leave steam for now. Right, let's get onto e-Bay!

Matt's advice is very sound. He's one of the best in the hobby, and a real live P48 practitioner.

For the Weaver drive, either ask the seller about the drive (always a good idea), or sometimes an underside photo will reveal it's nature.

source for Weaver drive components, outside of ebay, is P&D hobby shop in Michigan. source for cog & belt drive components is Sterling Instruments.

I have a sizeable inventory of the Weaver component parts I purchased from the late Ed Reutling. I can help you with the items, but you'll need to get your P48 wheelsets.

unless of course you're in need of an entire engine.

PRR Man posted:

Matt's advice is very sound. He's one of the best in the hobby, and a real live P48 practitioner.

For the Weaver drive, either ask the seller about the drive (always a good idea), or sometimes an underside photo will reveal it's nature.

"John", aka The CraneMeister...

Many thanks for the kind words. Maybe we'll see you on April 22.

MF

PRR Man posted:

Matt's advice is very sound. He's one of the best in the hobby, and a real live P48 practitioner.

For the Weaver drive, either ask the seller about the drive (always a good idea), or sometimes an underside photo will reveal it's nature.

source for Weaver drive components, outside of ebay, is P&D hobby shop in Michigan. source for cog & belt drive components is Sterling Instruments.

I have a sizeable inventory of the Weaver component parts I purchased from the late Ed Reutling. I can help you with the items, but you'll need to get your P48 wheelsets.

unless of course you're in need of an entire engine.

Thanks for the further information Chris. Yes, I need an entire engine. I'm currently hiding this post from my wife who already thinks I  spend waaaaay too much on my hobbies!

It sounds as if you are more interested in road switchers based on your list above, but a possible alternative as a beginning point is an Atlas sw8/9 switcher.

They can be found relatively cheaply on eBay regularly.  They already incorporate a solid drive.  Drop-in replacement geared wheelsets are available from NWSL or Jay at Right-O-Way (and possibly Matt) can provide wheelsets with the Protocraft wheels.  Jay also now offers drop-in gearbox covers (which the sideframes attach to) which relocate the sideframes inward, properly positioning the frames and brake rigging in relation to the p48 wheel treads.

Radiator detailing, grab irons, and cab interior could use some refinement to elevate the model, but that type of work will be necessary for most any model in p48.

For other inspiration, you might look up the Cotton Belt p48 gp9 thread recently appearing on the Western Thunder forum. Or there is a Montana Rail Link p48 gp9 project which can be found on the Diesel Detailed forum.  I think both are based on the Red Caboose gp9.

Lastly, converting a Weaver 3-rail 2-8-0 to 2-rail would probably run a minimum ballpark of $400.  There are other options for steam as Matt mentions.  Also, either Division Point or Glacier Park may have imported a brass CNW 4-6-0 in p48 in the recent past that might be a suitable starting point.

Jim

SW8/9 - not a bad idea Jim. 

the suggestion of the Atlas SW engine is excellent. you'd be hard pressed to find a better drive for the money. expect to spend $150-$200 for a 2 rail DC model. depending how much competition you have for one.

PRR Man posted:

the suggestion of the Atlas SW engine is excellent. you'd be hard pressed to find a better drive for the money. expect to spend $150-$200 for a 2 rail DC model. depending how much competition you have for one.

Malcolm,

It's an excellent "gateway" model. Here's one that belongs to a Client, in action and converted to P48 ...

MF

You can start with a 3-rail model of the Atlas switcher as well if an inexpensive one is available.

The mechanical guts are the same as 2-rail.  You can remove (and possibly resell) the electronics.  You will need to add pickup wipers (possibly available from Atlas parts) and fill the holes in the (already fixed) pilots.  You will already be swapping wheelsets and probably changing couplers so those issues are washes.

It would require incrementally more effort to start with a 3-rail model but if the price is right it may make sense.

Jim

big train posted:

You can start with a 3-rail model of the Atlas switcher as well if an inexpensive one is available.

The mechanical guts are the same as 2-rail.  You can remove (and possibly resell) the electronics.  You will need to add pickup wipers (possibly available from Atlas parts) and fill the holes in the (already fixed) pilots.  You will already be swapping wheelsets and probably changing couplers so those issues are washes.

It would require incrementally more effort to start with a 3-rail model but if the price is right it may make sense.

Jim

Jim, I know nothing or less about three-rail. Would I be right in assuming theres a circuit board that converts ac track power to dc motor power? So three-rail 'skate/pickup' needs to come off, plus circuit board, plus add pickups to conventional two-rail dc insulated/live wheels?

You are correct.  But everything is screwed in place, and motor leads may or may not plug into boards(it's been a little while since I deconstructed one).  You could probably get the thing apart in a half hour.  I took some extra time to bag and label everything I took off in case I ever tried to sell the electronics.

The neat thing is that you can use the left over board mounting lugs and posts to mount a styrene platform for a decoder and speaker if you go the dcc route.  Otherwise you will end up with a traditional 2-rail DC loco.

I checked the Atlas website for parts.  They have a 2-rail pilot in stock currently but they don't list 2-rail wipers at the moment.  However a call to Atlas parts will often reveal that parts are in stock even if not listed on the site.  In the worst case, wipers could be fabricated fairly easily.

Jim

I'm on road for at least another couple of weeks but I can get you some photos when I get home.  I also might be able to help you with some spare donor parts.  Shoot me an email if you want.  My address is in my profile.

Jim

Just an observation...

I came across an auction site I'd never seen before. It had several Weaver RS3's, one Reading engine went for $67 and there were two in some horrible orange color at $75. I think they're old listings, but at least they show what's available. Then, the crunch. P&P to the UK. $125! I guess there'd be import tax on top too! So now you can see how difficult things can be this side of the pond. I notice too, that in 'upgrade' type articles, a few parts are fitted, then "I'm just waiting for xyz parts to be delivered", followed by "I've ordered abc parts" and "def parts were fitted afterwards". This isn't a very practical way of modeling with all the delays etc, so ordering every possible item in one go seems the way to go. Of course, that means paying for everything in one go, so no chance of buying a bit at a time as funds permit.

I feel as if I'm making excuses, but doubling the price with p&p and import tax, as well as difficulties with delivery times, really does cause problems.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. Everything comes at a cost, in time and effort.

Malcolm, you will find several web sites that mine listings from ebay and present as their own, until you click on a link. Doesn't ebay also have a UK site? That would make a potential purchase closer to home.

I once shipped a 3 car Sunset Budd Burlington Zephyr to the UK. With insurance it cost about $50-$60 if memory serves. I have no idea what the import duty was.

FedEx & UPS are a tad pricey for  overseas shipping.  I remember  Mort Mann advising me to use the post office for export when I sold off my brass stock, which I did for England, Germany, japan, Asia.  The USPO was about half price.

PRR Man posted:

Malcolm, you will find several web sites that mine listings from ebay and present as their own, until you click on a link. Doesn't ebay also have a UK site? That would make a potential purchase closer to home.

I once shipped a 3 car Sunset Budd Burlington Zephyr to the UK. With insurance it cost about $50-$60 if memory serves. I have no idea what the import duty was.

Hi Chris. Yes, there is a UK flea bay version. Trouble is, there's very little available on it. There's quite a bit of plastic HO, a few odd items of 0 and the odd brass item. I guess I just need to be very patient! Using the US .com version ( ours is .co.uk) opens up the choices. Even the prices seem reasonable, taking into account exchange rates. If sellers used the USPO as you suggest, it'd be a goldmine! Trouble is, they use this eBay service that, not only is very expensive, but leaves you at the mercy of the import tax. On an expensive item, maybe it doesn't show up too badly, but $100 p & p plus $40 import tax on a $150 item is ludicrous. I can get a 20 cent or $200 item from Hong Kong with free postage, no tax and delivered more quickly!

I'm not blaming sellers directly, they're taking the simple route provided by eBay. Maybe I should message ahead of a sale to see if they can use the Post Office? I'm not really sure what eBay's terms are.

Tom Tee posted:

FedEx & UPS are a tad pricey for  overseas shipping.  I remember  Mort Mann advising me to use the post office for export when I sold off my brass stock, which I did for England, Germany, japan, Asia.  The USPO was about half price.

Sold off your brass stock? That's it. Couldn't keep any for me, could ya? Lol

i agree about the USPO though. FedEx or UPS plus import duty equals doubling of price of item for me in UK. I guess eBay take a cut too.

The Division Point is currently taking reservations for their RS-3's if you are interested, and they are offering them in Proto 48 too.