NKP 759 Cab <> C&O 614 Brake Stand

Many of the NKP 700s had the Precision Screw Reverser, instead of the Alco "stick" power reverser, as on NKP 765.

645 posted:

All the NKP Berkshire backheads should be the same or very similar which includes the Pere Marquette and C&O versions. Only difference would be if a radio and/or diesel MU controller was added for modern day excursion service. You make it sound like Ross Rowland rebuilt 759's cab with computer screens, hi-tech electronics and air conditioning. 

I know that Ross didn't put computer screens and an AC unit in 759, but that would be nice though. I was just wondering if it had a brake stand or a power reverse screw.

Technically, the Precision Screw type of reverser mechanism is not really a "power reverse", like the Alco stick type power reverse gear that is on NKP 765. By that I mean, the Precision Screw is NOT air assisted.

NKP 755 at Conneaut has the same power reverse as NKP 765, Alco Type G, installed about 1955.  The other survivors (757, 759, 763 and 779) still have their original Franklin screw type with the quasi-type "steering wheel".  When High Iron Company operated the 759 from 1968 - 1973, they kept the custom-ordered WABCO No. 6 brake stand.  By the time FWRHS overhauled the 765, gaskets and parts were no longer available for the 80 custom ordered brake stands so we switched to the then-standard No. 26 brake stand.  It was a good move - the railroads may not be familiar with the rest of the apparatus in the cab of a Berkshire but they sure felt comfortable with that 26 brake stand in front of them....Now the 765 has an Event Recorder, a new radar speedometer and a PRR standard cab signal system along with the MU box that Hot Water and the EMD staff custom made for the 765 in 1979.

Answering the original question, the 759 and cab arrangement was just about 100% NKP.

BTW, a recent discussion asked about the ATS bracket on the tender.  I checked last Saturday and it is still there, even with the rolling bearing conversion in 2008 or so.  It is on the engineer's side of the tender, lead axle of the rear truck.  Odd thing is while visiting the 779 in Lima one week ago,  it has the same bracket- also on the engineer's side - but it is on the trailing axle of the FRONT truck.  Don't understand that........attached is a photo of the one on the 765.  BTW, the wood poling "pole" is welded in its original bracket, just like it "should be", but it can't fall out.  

First, I'll bet it was good exercise turning the screw all the way, but much easier to measure when reducing power. Second, I had watched "Extra 765 West" and heard that the MU stand was home built, but I didn't know that Hot Water helped make it. Was he a part of the Fort Wayne Crew? I am really surprised that the Fort Wayne Crew sort of set the rules to the modern excursion climate, because almost every excursion locomotive today has a 26L stand and an MU stand.

My third question concerns 614. In the cab shots I've seen, 614 has a brake stand that looks identical to an       F-unit. I know 614 was a modern locomotive, and I was wondering if these brakes are the originals. 

Thank you to anyone who helps.

Railfan Brody posted:

First, I'll bet it was good exercise turning the screw all the way, but much easier to measure when reducing power. Second, I had watched "Extra 765 West" and heard that the MU stand was home built, but I didn't know that Hot Water helped make it.

Well technically, the MU Diesel Control Box was made in the EMD Engineering Department, Electrical Control Lab, and the 26NL air brake modification was designed by the Chief Air Brake Engineer, in the EMD Engineering Dept.. The very first Diesel MU Control Box was designed and made for the 4449, while on the American Freedom Train, and I had a second Box made for NKP 765.

Was he a part of the Fort Wayne Crew?

Yes, I was. In fact, I was responsible for have the 765 conduct freight break-in operations on the TP&W RR during May 1980.

I am really surprised that the Fort Wayne Crew sort of set the rules to the modern excursion climate, because almost every excursion locomotive today has a 26L stand and an MU stand.

I'm not sure about THAT. None of the following steam locomotives were/are modified for a 26NL brake schedule, as designed by EMD: SP 4449, AT&SF 3751, UP 844, UP 3985, and MIL 261, i.e. those all have their original 8ET design system.

My third question concerns 614. In the cab shots I've seen, 614 has a brake stand that looks identical to an       F-unit. I know 614 was a modern locomotive, and I was wondering if these brakes are the originals. 

I've never been in the cab of 614, but maybe it has 24RL system?

Thank you to anyone who helps.

NKP779 posted:

BTW, the wood poling "pole" is welded in its original bracket, just like it "should be", but it can't fall out.  

Funny thing, I doubt many people have a clue what poling is all about, as I can't imagine it being done in this day and age, for fear of a shattered pole and people getting sued.

A young (20-something) railfan once accused me of lying when he overheard me explaining poling pockets and what they were for. A couple of older (BN) former RR employees came over and said I was right. the kid thought we were all messing with him and never believed us.

Railfan Brody posted:

My third question concerns 614. In the cab shots I've seen, 614 has a brake stand that looks identical to an       F-unit. I know 614 was a modern locomotive, and I was wondering if these brakes are the originals. 

I have photos of 614 from when it was sitting at the B&O museum. I can't recall the year offhand, but it had the Foster Wheeler markings on the tender from the ACE3000 tests. If you want, I'll see if I can dig them up to see if they show anything in the cab.

Also, Ross is often online in various places. Maybe he might respond to a reply if you asked him directly?

Hot Water, thank you for the information, but I thought the 261 had a brake stand. It's probably not like the one on 765.

P51, I didn't know that Ross was online. Thank you!

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water, thank you for the information, but I thought the 261 had a brake stand. It's probably not like the one on 765.

Go back and read again:  "MIL 261, i.e. those all have their original 8ET design system."

NKP779 posted:

NKP 755 at Conneaut has the same power reverse as NKP 765, Alco Type G, installed about 1955.  The other survivors (757, 759, 763 and 779) still have their original Franklin screw type with the quasi-type "steering wheel".

759 doesn't have a screw, and this proves it.

Whoops,  Brody is right.  I cheerfully stand corrected!  

I'm surprised that no one has ever got a shot in the cab. It's not that hard to climb into a Berkshire. Does Steamtown have a rule against it?

Railfan Brody posted:

I'm surprised that no one has ever got a shot in the cab. It's not that hard to climb into a Berkshire. Does Steamtown have a rule against it?

Unless a locomotive is set up for display, usually with stairways or ramps, most museums discourage climbing on or in equipment.  Mostly for liability reasons.

Rusty

Thanks Rusty!

Railfan Brody posted:

I'm surprised that no one has ever got a shot in the cab. It's not that hard to climb into a Berkshire. Does Steamtown have a rule against it?

Maybe the folks that visit Steamtown simply don't care about photographing the inside of the cab? Also, maybe more folks are MUCH MORE interested in seeing/photographing the cab interior of the HUGE UP 4012!

645 posted:

When I saw 759 at Steamtown a couple of years ago it was parked inside the the roundhouse where the only public access is from an elevated walkway along the outer wall. If it is still kept in that same spot one can't even walk around it unless it is pulled outside for display. I also recall for the most part Steamtown did not allow visitors to climb on equipment. Also have to remember the Steamtown yard is right next to an active freight yard of the Delaware-Lackawanna where trains are switched/coming through so the D-L would not like seeing visitors walking around in an active yard if they don't heed the marked areas where the public can go at Steamtown.

As a general rule most museums I've seen do not allow visitors into the cab of displayed equipment. There are exceptions to this of course as some organizations do have cab access set up as part of a display to allow public access or viewing.

Main reason for no visitors to cabs even on a non-operational display piece is to prevent injury or damage as it is not possible for a museum representative to always be present. The Illinois Railway Museum used to have the cab of Santa Fe FP45 #92 open to visitors:

Stairs to IRM's ex-Santa Fe FP45 cab interior

IRM - Santa Fe FP45 #92's cab interior

The cab is no longer open to the public as some visitors somehow damaged the control stand. This is now an additional roadblock to returning the unit to operational status someday which is the ultimate future goal here of IRM. (#92 also has other issues as it is basically worn out from many years of hard service on ATSF and successor BNSF. For example prior to donation BNSF switched the trucks out - ones it rides on now have worn wheelsets plus lack traction motors. This can be corrected but needs time, money and labor - all of which are usually in short supply at the typical museum or have to be spread out among many pieces of equipment.) #92 these days is usually parked inside Barn 2 where the public is not allowed. Not to say it is now impossible to go up in 92's cab - if a diesel department volunteer with the key to unlock the cab can spare a few minutes they probably will grant supervised access to someone who asks nicely. So thanks to the thoughtless actions of a few nobody can go up in 92's cab now as a public display and I can't blame IRM for denying access to same.

Brody - you have to understand it takes much time and labor to preserve equipment but unfortunely it doesn't take much to do some damage. Add in the potential liability issues as previously noted. Part of the problem here is that there are some railfans who think railroad equipment /museums are there to be a "playground" who can make the majority of responsible railfans look bad as a whole. You have been up close and personal with 765 so I'm sure you have firsthand respect for the size and complexity of railroad equipment. Hope this helps you understand the other side of the story so to speak.

Great post by the way.

It really does suck that people are heartless like that. And we see it every time a freight train goes past, in the form of graffiti. And it happens all to often that someone selfish ruins it for all of the railfans. I saw a video of a Metro-North ACMU fan trip, and at one point a security guard walked in and said that they were looking for a brake lever that had been stolen.

In fact, I've heard that before 9/11, if you signed a waver with the railroad, you could ride in the cab of a revenue train, be it passenger, freight, or excursion. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Railfan Brody posted:

 

In fact, I've heard that before 9/11, if you signed a waver with the railroad, you could ride in the cab of a revenue train, be it passenger, freight, or excursion. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not to my knowledge. It took a LOT more than just a simple "waver".

The NKP Berkshires were originally built with Franklin Precision Power Reverse gears (They were air operated.) with their associated hand wheel in the cab. NKP had an ongoing program to replace the power reverse gears as built with Alco Type G and Type H. NKP drawings called for the type G to go on S & S-1 class engines and the type H, with a 2” larger cylinder, to go on the S-2 & S-3 classes. Not all engines saw the change before the end of steam and in fact no S-3 ever received the modification. The 759 and 765 both have an Alco type H power reverse.

Hi Jim Kreider!

My understanding re the Precision wheel operated screw reverse vs the Alco lever power reverse is that the Precision was more accurate regarding cutoff, and the Alco power reverse  was much better for switching and set outs and easier on the engineer, and that might be one reason why the S-3's were parked before a number of NKP S-2's. A number of S-2's had the Alco power reverse but to the best of my knowledge, no S-3's did. The S-3's on the east end all enjoyed mainline freight assignments on premier/priority trains until they were bumped by Alco DL freight diesels in March, 1958. Thanks also to NKP779 for the photo of the tender ATS bracket. Of course there was no need for any ATS on the east end of the NKP and I am really surprised that 779 has a bracket for one, even if it is on the wrong tender axle!