"O" Gauge Flyer Whistle Question

Check this from Portlines:

http://www.portlines.com/Adobe...0final%20version.pdf

Craig, thanks.  That helps a lot.  I do not have the controller.  I hope the owner does.

Confusing to me though that the relay is energized by AC voltage?

Is the D.C. relay on the far end stuck in a closed position? When it's closed it allows AC through the contact and to the E-unit in the middle of the car. According to the diagram the E-unit should not be energized except when D.C. is sent to the track.  

Johnsgg1 posted:

 I do not have the controller.  I hope the owner does.

Confusing to me though that the relay is energized by AC voltage?

Take a look at this post from the CTT Flyer "O" Gauge thread.

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/211963.aspx

 Member "Gray Cat" has some good information on the operation of pre-war Flyer. The controller for the Remote Directional Control 4-8-4 appears to be the same as the one for the 490. Scroll down to the section on operating cars and you will find a small section on the 490.  According to Gray Cat, a Lionel transformer whistle control will operate the 490 (and also the Remote Directional Control 4-8-4). This makes sense since Gilbert was supposedly sued (urban legend?) for patent infringement by Lionel over the operation of their whistle control system (most often mentioned in discussions of the S-Gauge  314AW Pacific which used a somewhat similar mechanism ).

I mention this as a possible suggestion that might allow you to test the 490 without the original controller. Perhaps you have access to a Lionel transformer with a whistle control that "might" work.

It's worth a try. Let us know if you figure things out.

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EDIT: As an aside, I should mention that I have a Flyer S-Gauge 314AW but do not have an original whistle control. I have found that the whistle/horn/bell control button (6-5906) that comes packed with some Lionel/Flyer locomotives will actually activate the whistle on my 314AW (though I've been told it shouldn't  work).  Also, You can occasionally find sort-of-replica 314AW whistle controllers for sale on eBay that are made with modern electronics. I suspect that they would work with a 490, but I can not attest to this.

I have never seen one of these 490 prewar cars.  Interesting that it has a device like a reverse unit in addition to the relay.  That is a different design than the 314AW, which is very similar to the Lionel DC-activated whistle.

Hi guys;  I'm not exactly a guru on Pre-war Flyer whistles, but I never heard of flyer putting a whistle setup like this in their trains.  The only whistles i'm familiar with are the billboard variety ( which everybody knows about ) and the 4-rail kind we have in our grandpa's pre-war Scale Hudson.  Flyer made that work by adding a special 4th rail pickup to the tender, but it requires special track with a fiberboard base that holds the fourth rail.  That fiberboard base is riveted to the ties on all of the pieces we have, and the odd thing is, those cross ties are stepped like they were trying to bank the curves.  Which makes sense on the curves, but not on the straight sections.  Anyway, I thought the whole reason they did this was to avoid the Lionel Patent issue.  But Flyer dropped the 4-rail system after a year or two, in favor of the whistling billboards which were easier to make. The track was discontinued, and to my knowledge, nobody's reproducing it either.  And it's hellish hard to come by these days.  The system I see in the picture above looks like it would potentially infringe on Lionel's patent.   Oh well...  That's my two cents worth.

Great thread.  Thanks.  A makeshift AF DC solenoid activator can be constructed by stacking 3 D cell batteries in series in a tube.  Pass your AC track voltage through the D cells.  Connect the transformer side to the (-) end of the D stack, and touch your lead to the track on the (+) end.  If there's an AF DC solenoid on the tracks that is in proper tune and working condition, it will trigger.  If the points that are made to touch from that action are clean and the wiring from there correct, your AC powered reverse unit will trigger and your AC whistle go on or off accordingly in the case of a 490, or the AC motor in a 314AW will spin up and sound the whistle as long as you keep the button pushed.  Assuming  of course, they too are in good working condition.  I find it interesting that the 490 includes the AC driven-reverse unit.  That allows you to release the push-button while you want the whistle to blow, but how much of a hassle it to just keep it pressed down?  Seems they could have wired it like the 314AW and skipped the reverse unit.  

Sgaugian posted:

  A makeshift AF DC solenoid activator can be constructed by stacking 3 D cell batteries in series in a tube.  Pass your AC track voltage through the D cells.  Connect the transformer side to the (-) end of the D stack, and touch your lead to the track on the (+) end.  If there's an AF DC solenoid on the tracks that is in proper tune and working condition, it will trigger.

It looks like Gilbert took the Remote Directional Control unit as used in RDC locomotives and installed it lock-stock-and-barrel into the 490. In today's world of digital electronics I guess it seems a bit Rube Goldberg. As you mention, the 314AW takes out the reverse drum and fingers for a simpler setup.

I saw (youtube, I think) where someone used your idea of using D-cells to blow a horn. The particular setup had a short section of isolated trackage with the batteries attached. Whenever the train went over that short section (near a station or crossing, as I recall) the whistle would blow automatically. 

This gives me ideas of what to do with that old triple D-cell flashlight body in my junk box...

Guys, thanks for your help.  I got it working OK.  The relay contacts needed cleaning as well as the reverse unit drum and fingers.  It works with a normal whistle/bell controller on Lionel transformers.  Not polarity sensitive.  One push and the whistle blows, push again and it stops.  Not always consistent.  The relay spring and contacts have to be just right.

The Gilbert whistling baggage is set up as a latching relay, which is different than the way the Lionel whistle worked (although both used a DC offset to energize the relay).  It's kind of like the way most electronic bell sound effects work (i.e. push the button and the bell turns on and stays on, push it again to turn it off).  It would take a little getting used to in order to blow standard whistle signals like for a grade crossing.  It takes twice as many button pushes to make a whistle blast than a conventional design with a momentary switch.

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

OK, I thought I had it fixed but no dice.  The relay responds to AC.  This in turn makes it 'chatter' and engages the reverse solenoid turning the drum, and thus, the whistle on and off constantly.

I took the relay apart, polished everything, but no change.  It gets magnitised with AC and only slightly more so with a DC push.  I have several 'parts' Lionel relays and they only close their contacts with DC.  A Lionel relay won't fit in the baggage car.

What goes bad in a DC relay?  How are they constructed as opposed to a AC relay used in many Lionel Postwar accessories?

Any 'Chicago' Flyer collectors have a spare Prewar Flyer relay laying around?

I can't help with the relay problem, but if your customer (or anyone else) is looking for the control button that works with the whistling baggage car, there are two available in an active eBay auction as of 4/15/2017:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERIC...d:g:aCAAAOSw7XBY8PKs

The buttons are labeled for the Remote Directional Control, but they are the same as for the 490.

It could be that the DC solenoid needs to be rewound.  It requires a very thin magnet wire (#35) wrapped 2240-2450 times around the core.  Not for the faint of heart or inexperienced.  One kink or misstep right up to the very last rev and you must start over.  According to Bob Hannon's book on page 2-20, the solenoid should have a resistance of 87.7-101.2 ohms.  Check that.  Bob rewound one of these for me that was not working correctly.  It looked factory-made and worked perfectly when he was done with it.  I highly recommend him for all of your armature or field rewinding needs.  Get his book too -- A.C. Gilbert's Postwar American Flyer S-Gauge Reference Manual -- every physical dimension and electric spec of any electrical component in AF S-gauge engines and accessories.  I consider it a must-have repair manual.  Besides, Bob's just a great guy to talk to and do business with.