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Older transformers are fine as long as they are in good condition. Check cord and breaker.
Newer transformers are more efficient and have a faster breaker. Older transformers can be retrofitted with some simple electronics, i.e a faster breaker. If this is done they are as good as the new ones IMO.
Neither new nor old transformers will damage train electronics. Some new transformers have altered sine waves and are not compatible with some PS1,Ps2 MTH engines.
Here is a link on retrofitting a PW type transformer. On my layout I use mostly PW type.
The purpose of the breaker is to protect the transformer and wiring,not the train electronics. Regardless of transformer,adding a TVS is advisable as described in the link. The TVS does protect train electronics.
Dale H
Dale is giving you good advice. If you have a PW transformer that's in good condition, adding a modern circuit breaker or fuse and a TVS will make it fine for use with modern locomotives. Even with newer transformers, a TVS is a good idea.
This is the TVS I use for the task: 1.5KE36CA at Digikey
Dale and John, I appreciate your help. Thanks.
Dale is giving you good advice. If you have a PW transformer that's in good condition, adding a modern circuit breaker or fuse and a TVS will make it fine for use with modern locomotives. Even with newer transformers, a TVS is a good idea.
This is the TVS I use for the task: 1.5KE36CA at Digikey
John, where and how do you wire in a tvs for a CW-80, Z-4000, and a LionChief wallwart? Also, which one would you use for each of the transformers I mentioned, and how many would you use? Btw, I use ony FastTrack.
Thanks,
Kenn
Kenn
You can see my link as to how I install them. Put at least one on each loop just as if you were shorting out the track. You can use more than one,it does not hurt anything. The type of transformer does not matter.
Dale H
Kenn, what he said. 
I use the same TVS that I posted above for any of those applications.
SteveF,
I run both older and newer transformers with my DCS/Legacy layout. The DCS TIU has a built in TVS and it works great, use a set of 7 or 10amp Breakers between your older transformers and your TIU Channels, and it safe guards all your newer trains/engines from the slow breakers in your older transformers. I use 4 old ZW's, 2 old KW's and 2 new Z4K transformers to power my layouts, set up correctly with everything in phase, all works absolutely correctly, both old and new.
PCRR/Dave
The older transformers like the ZW really pump out the amps but their simple mode of operation only allows for a decrease in sine wave amplitude. New transformers also adjust the waveform and cut it accordingly to improve low speed operation. Properly circuit protected I believe that both transformers will do the job. I really prefer the vintage transformers as they really pump out the amperage. They are so powerful that you could weld with one of them. IMO, when you run simple conventional operation they can't be beat!
I have a couple of older Lionel multi-train transformers and have added TVS units from Mouser Electronics and 7 amp circuit breakers. Seems like 7 amp breakers give enough electric power without tripping. The breakers need to be on the hot side to the track in series, like if you cut the wire and spliced it. The older post war ZW, KW and Z have a circuit breaker on the common side and is not that effective in preventing an overload.
MTH Z-1000 has 7 amp breaker in it so I went with 7 amp breakers because of that, 8 amp would give you more power but also take more time to trip.
Lee Fritz
I may be even more challenged than the OP. What is a TVS and why is it helpful?
I may be even more challenged than the OP. What is a TVS and why is it helpful?
If you search the Forum I am sure there are may posts on this in detail. I will try to offer a short answer.
First, if you run all PW stuff you do not need a TVS. TVS stands for Transient Voltage Suppressor. When wired across the hot and ground,the TVS will conduct current over a certain voltage threshold. In this case,36 volts.
Anything hooked up in the circuit with inductance,such as a motor or solenoid for example can generate voltage spikes. Voltage spikes are brief occurrences but can be harmful to solid state electronics (which are low voltage devices) especially over a long period of time. The spikes can slowly degrade components. Spikes can also be generated in a short circuit. The transformer supplies power but the spikes themselves are generated off the component. So really the transformer whether old or new does not matter. In fact older transformers with iron core windings may be less susceptible.
If you have anything hooked to the layout with solid state electronics,including LEDs, a TVS is advisable. The TVS simply conducts harmful spikes to ground or common. Simply put one on each loop or circuit (accessories also) across the hot and ground.
The 36 volt TVS is used because that is a bit higher the peak voltage of a PWZW with the whistle button depressed. Peak voltage is 41% higher than the AC transformer voltage. So it is a safe value in all cases,at least with out trains. Spikes can be 80 volts or more.
Dale H
What are the group's thoughts on the fast acting solid state breakers such as the PSX-AC?
<http://www.dccspecialties.com/...s/pdf/man_psx-ac.pdf>
While they are more expensive than the electro-mechanical rocker switch types, it seems like they would be more likely to protect sensitive electronics because they are so much faster. Or would the extra electronics interfere with the digital signals from DCS and or Legacy? Also, would the TVS diodes still be needed?
Bill in FtL
YES. The damage from over voltage spikes is already done long before the fastest breakers can act, and it's cumulative damage. You need Transient Voltage Suppression to clamp spikes, breakers do nothing beyond protecting the transformer and wiring from over current.
Steve,
Are you planning a purchase? Rethinking one? Or just trying to learn in general?
If you run strictly modern equipment, and don't really plan on increasing your electronics knowledge here, think about leaning towards newer units.
They have faster acting breakers, and if you do mix them with other transformers (even old ones), "phasing" them often becomes "automatic".
Phasing with a new unit, it often becomes something you "can't make a mistake on", because many electronic breakers, will "drop out" if you try to use it out of phase. They often wont even try to turn on, till its phased right.
You must "phase" two old transformers used together. Its a "safety" thing 
.
Adding a new transformers as a third, may also guarantee both old are in phase the same way, or it wont turn on.
To complicate things, there are some new engines, that don't like new power units due to the type of sine wave(chopped sine, not pure sine wave.) and visa versa.
Red=Edits
There is nothing "Automatic" about phasing. Two PH-180 bricks can be wired out of phase and put out 36+ volts, w/o any circuit breaker action. This is easier than you would think, as Lionel did at one point manufacture 180's that were out of phase with earlier & later batches.
They're not sacrificial, although they may fail eventually.
The old transformers, when properly breakered externally, have one advantage: they put out a pure sine wave regardless of output voltage.
Like any electrical component they can fail but not any more so than any other component. In my experience fixing electronics, capacitors fail first in a lot of instances. The TVS units are rated at 1500 watt but for multiple brief occurrences. I have seen photos of them burned up in MTH TIUs. Adding additional TVS units may take some of the strain off of this. I think they use 33 volt ones. I run conventional so I am not that familiar with command operation..
They can fail open,in which case you would have no spike protection.
They can break down and fail shorted,in which case it would create short circuit and pop the transformer breaker. This would be less common than the former. Testing them is a little complicated. They are cheap in cost,maybe 50 cents each so I guess you could replace them periodically if you are worried. I don't replace mine and put them in every circuit and across any accessory which might be noisy electrically speaking such as a bell or vibrator accessory. .
The more TVS units in the circuit,the more paths a spike can take. Multiple units don't hurt anything. They have a very small amount of capacitance so I guess a lot of them may mess up a DCS signal.
As far as breakers,the fast magnetic breakers are nice,assuming you don't experience nuisance trips. The purpose of the breaker is to protect the transformer and wire,but not usually the device it drives. Thermal breakers are usually fast enough for this. If there are smaller gauged branch lines they can be dealt with individually. I use poly fuses for this which reset themselves after power is removed. Toward the end of this post I show them used in a lighting circuit.
During a short caused by a derailment the voltage spikes generated from the short is what causes the damage to the engine electronics,not the short itself. (perhaps a derailed car is being dragged along causing sparks before the breaker trips). Any short would involve a surge in electrical current before the breaker trips. A faster tripping breaker would offer a bit more protection to the extent that the time period of exposure to the spikes would be less,but many voltage spikes occur not involving the breaker tripping. In any case the TVS gives any spike over 36 (peak) volts a path to common and protect the solid state electronics hooked to the circuit. The use of TVS units are common practice in electronics. .
Dale H
There is nothing "Automatic" about phasing. Two PH-180 bricks can be wired out of phase and put out 36+ volts, w/o any circuit breaker action. This is easier than you would think, as Lionel did at one point manufacture 180's that were out of phase with earlier & later batches.
I edited and added some "most"s and "should"s
Exceptions will get you every time
..(
)
I was thinking more along the lines of a small, non-command unit, like CW's, and the old bricks, with the light grey controllers(#???).
In my experience if you wire them out of phase with other transformers, they will just blink.
I use this to my advantage when I pull plugs, and don't watch blade orientation
.
I also never looked deeply into any paths that might be bypassing the modern safeties since I wouldn't leave it "half connected" for long anyhow, let alone before phasing.
While simple enough most of the time, IMO command eventually forces learning more about electronics than conventional. I couldn't tell if he'd rather avoid it
It might not be his idea of fun 
.
(Fun or not, if phasing is new to some of you, there is an well explained Lionel video here you should watch before adding extra power supplies)
.
(Fun or not, if phasing is new to some of you, there is an well explained Lionel video here you should watch before adding extra power supplies)
I watched the video I think with all due respect, he made some mistakes.
First AC hot is not + and ground is not minus. + and - imply DC voltage.
Second,phasing is not an issue unless the transformers are put in parallel. Merely sharing a ground does not require the transformers to be phased. Half of your house which is AC is out of phase with the other half.
On my layout I have a separate transformer that runs the relays,a Lionel brick. It goes to a bridge rectifier. The minus of the bridge is hooked to the U terminals of the ZW track transformer. The + of the bridge is hooked to the relay coils. The insulated outside rail goes to the other terminal of each relay with the train wheels completing the circuit. I activate over 200 relays with this method with no harm to either transformer. Since one circuit is filtered DC and sharing a common phasing is meaningless. The same thing could be done with an AC transformers and an AC relay or an accessory hooked to the IR. As long as the transformers are not paralleled there is no problem.
Dale H
The best phasing tutorial around, partially because it involves postwar & modern power supplies, is from Marty E. HERE.
What are the group's thoughts on the fast acting solid state breakers such as the PSX-AC?
<http://www.dccspecialties.com/...s/pdf/man_psx-ac.pdf>
While they are more expensive than the electro-mechanical rocker switch types, it seems like they would be more likely to protect sensitive electronics because they are so much faster. Or would the extra electronics interfere with the digital signals from DCS and or Legacy? Also, would the TVS diodes still be needed?
Bill in FtL
My layout is command control only. I use the PSX-AC's with both DCS and Legacy and have no problems. Both systems work really well. The PSX-AC's are wired before the TIU on the inputs and the Legacy is wired after the TIU on the output common terminals. I am currently only using two TIU channels. Expansions are planned for the use of the remaining two channels, which will also have PSX-AC's installed on them. I already have the PSX's. I believe it has been reported here that a choke is required if you connect the PSX-AC's after the TIU on the outputs. If you go that route the choke will need to be sized for the power being used.
I have Lionel PH-180's feeding the PSX-AC's for all my track power. The PSX-AC's trip faster than the PH-180's which have very fast breakers in them. I have had no electronic board failures so far and I think the PSX-AC's are really pretty cheap when compared to the cost of replacing the electronics in just one engine. You could install them on every input of your TIU and still come out ahead of the repair costs for one engine. Personally, I think they are more than worth their cost for the extra protection they provide. They are extremely fast and also have a lot of optional features such as alarms, LEDS outputs to indicate many things and they are adjustable to match the amperage you are using for power. I am quite happy with them, no regrets on about their purchase.
One more thing I missed, there are a few others here that use the PSX-AC's. I have not heard any of them make any complaints about them. Some extra TVS' added here and there would not hurt a thing and would only add even more protection. I don't think you can have too much protection when it comes to your electronic engines.
OK, I've read this thread again, and after a lot of pain, if I understand it correctly, the transient voltage suppressor is needed to suppress the occasional spike in voltage. I understand why the TVS wouldn't be necessary in the Post War stuff. The TVS protects the modern 0 Gauge locomotive with the TMCC or DCS or Legacy by adsorbing any voltage spike created by a short circuit, such as one created by a derailment.
Question: With the newer transformers, why is this necessary, since the PC boards in the locomotives would be sensitive to such a spike? Yet the thread insists that they are necessary, even for the newest ZW and Z-4000. Is this a marketing ploy on the part of Lionel and MTH to increase sales? Perhaps I shouldn't be so cynical.
Question: If even a fast blow circuit breaker only protects the transformer, does it also protect the locomotive by its speed? Should there be a resetting circuit breaker installed in the locomotive, like Aristocraft did with their latest Large Scale stuff? Is there?
With the older post war ZW's I have noticed that when you cross an insulated section of track between 2 outputs on the same transformer(handles A & B or D & C) the voltage can momentarily reach up to 50 volts because the post war ZW isn't properly protected by it's circuit breaker. It has a 15 amp breaker on the return side or common side of the transformer.
I have added in 7 amp breakers from Mouser electronics to the A to D output terminals of my post war ZW to hopefully deal with this issue, each terminal(A, B, C, & D) gets a 7 amp breaker. The reason I chose 7 amp breakers is because it gives you enough power for 2 powered engines and a couple of lighted cars. Also the new MTH Z-1000 has a 6 amp breaker built-in so I figure that 7 amps should be pretty safe as well.
I don't know how the new ZW-C or ZW-L are designed as far as circuit breakers.
Lee Fritz
With the older post war ZW's I have noticed that when you cross an insulated section of track between 2 outputs on the same transformer(handles A & B or D & C) the voltage can momentarily reach up to 50 volts because the post war ZW isn't properly protected by it's circuit breaker.
Not possible if you are dealing with one ZW, because there is one secondary winding that will yield about 22 volts between ends. There is no way you can get more than that 22 volts between the handles. Where are you measuring voltage, and with what? Quite possible if you have 2 transformers not in phase, but then you'll get a dead short across the fiber pin in the center rail.
Also, a circuit breaker has nothing to do with voltage, only with amperage.
I would agree that 7-amp breakers are appropriate on the outputs of a ZW. For full protection you would also jneed a 10 amp on the U returns.
RJR posted:With the older post war ZW's I have noticed that when you cross an insulated section of track between 2 outputs on the same transformer(handles A & B or D & C) the voltage can momentarily reach up to 50 volts because the post war ZW isn't properly protected by it's circuit breaker.
Not possible if you are dealing with one ZW, because there is one secondary winding that will yield about 22 volts between ends. There is no way you can get more than that 22 volts between the handles. Where are you measuring voltage, and with what? Quite possible if you have 2 transformers not in phase, but then you'll get a dead short across the fiber pin in the center rail.
Also, a circuit breaker has nothing to do with voltage, only with amperage.
I would agree that 7-amp breakers are appropriate on the outputs of a ZW. For full protection you would also jneed a 10 amp on the U returns.
I only have one ZW! This happens at a cross-over point from one insulated section to another, might not be higher then 25 volts(measured with a digital meter) but it does happen with only one ZW type R. You need to lower the track voltage on both outputs between insulated loops or sidings and then cross over at a slower speed.
Also you mention about putting a 10 amp breaker on the return or common side of the ZW. I have not heard of that before but don't doubt it as the common for the ZW gets all four terminal returns.
Lee Fritz
Lee, in the ZW, the internal breaker is only on the U circuit. There is no protection for a short between handles, which can easily occur. Most likely situation is when a loco crosses from one handle to another and levers are at different voltages.
Where did you measure that voltage. I've used ZWs for 65 years and never observed that high a voltage. If one handle is down to 6 and the other all the way up, you would get * across the fiber pin, and a short as well.
*EDIT: Insert at * (20volts)
Gentlemen,
Thank you much for the information in this topic. I use PW and ZW-C with 180s on my layout. I have two PW ZWs, a great Z from late 40s, PW V @ 150w for accessories, and two ZW-c with six 180 bricks total. I also have a TPC 400 and use it direct with some 135 bricks in phase. Mind you, I know this is a lot of power for one layout. However, I do not use it all at once, the same time. I am selectable between what power source I use at a given time, depending upon what motive power I am running, modern vs PW, etc.... Also, I have 5 main lines, multiple yards and sidings, and am adding a sixth, upper level, of Atlas 21st Century trackage for a large classification yard. I do not have DCS or Legacy...yet. But, the use of TVS is something I do need, as all should, and I am grateful for all the information here. My layout, 24ft X 28ft, is still a rough work in progress as I make changes and am always running my biggest ( Big Boys, Challengers, Turbine consists) and longest (21in CZ and 18in GS consists, etc.) checking clearances, grades, etc. I still have a long way to go and since I am now retired, the information I find on all these topics is great in helping the way to proceed with progress.
Many thanks to all and may The Good Lord bless......
Jesse
A very logical-sounding recommendation is that the TVSs be installed in the loco, to kill a surge approaching the board.
One question to all.....
With one of my ZW-Cs, an early version, where may I locate information, instructions, on the remedy needed for the larger handles and how they became loose? Also, as someone mentioned, how to correct the incorrect phasing on the inputs, where I have to use the Lionel supplied correcting plugs. Also, it is my understanding the "out of phase" has to do with the internals of the earliest ZW-C transformers, not with the earliest bricks, correct? Any information, links, etc. is very appreciated. I have opened and rebuilt, cleaned, etc. many PW transformers to bring them up to better, safer operating state. Now, I wish to do same for one of the ZW-C trans. I own.
Thank you and may God bless...
Jesse
texastrain posted:One question to all.....
Also, as someone mentioned, how to correct the incorrect phasing on the inputs, where I have to use the Lionel supplied correcting plugs. Also, it is my understanding the "out of phase" has to do with the internals of the earliest ZW-C transformers, not with the earliest bricks, correct?
Jesse
Jesse,
The out of phase was with the bricks. I have a couple of them. The adapters swap the power of the output pins that plug into the ZW.
George
George,
Thank you, sir. I have looked on the Lionel web site and have not located the information I am seeking. I acquired the early ZW-C and 180 bricks back when working in the Great Lakes, Illinois area around 2000. I was an early founder member of the North Central O Gaugers in Antioch, Il. and, fortunately, marked my 180 bricks for use with the club layout and identifying them. So, I can discern them from other, later acquired, 180 bricks. Over the years of working all over the states managing construction sites, I had years of being "out-of-touch" and not running any trains, being active in the hobby. I call it being re-educated and catching up with the fascinating progress, as well as learning all I can, more input, from this forum. Again, thank you, sir......
Jesse
Jesse,
You spent your time up here near me. Are the North Central O Gaugers still in Antioch, Il?
Anyway, I found these two posts on the ZW handles:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...oose-handles-on-zw-c
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...77#21421491193398477
I had this problem on my last ZW-C, which fixed and sold. Then I ended up buying another one when I found it for a great price with four 180watt bricks. I don't remember the procedure I used, so hopefully these posts help.
Warm regards,
George
Dale H posted:Older transformers are fine as long as they are in good condition. Check cord and breaker.
Newer transformers are more efficient and have a faster breaker. Older transformers can be retrofitted with some simple electronics, i.e a faster breaker. If this is done they are as good as the new ones IMO.
Neither new nor old transformers will damage train electronics. Some new transformers have altered sine waves and are not compatible with some PS1,Ps2 MTH engines.
Here is a link on retrofitting a PW type transformer. On my layout I use mostly PW type.
The purpose of the breaker is to protect the transformer and wiring,not the train electronics. Regardless of transformer,adding a TVS is advisable as described in the link. The TVS does protect train electronics.
Dale H
Dale is right on as always. I say have the best of both worlds. PW ZW and a modern ZW. That way you can run everything. That is if you have the PS1 or PS2.
Steve & Jesse,
Lots of good info here to absorb, IMO the best way to run a layout is with both DCS and Legacy, using the DCS TIU gives you the TVS protection required for your layout, when everything is set up correctly. The 7-10 Amp Resettable Breakers between your Transformers old or new, on every Red mid rail Channel, protect your TIU. I have been set up like this for many many years, and have never damaged any Engines or TIU. Granted I started very early when DCS was 1st being developed, and learned a lot by trial and error . However I just recently in the past few years, added Legacy to my DCS layout. MartyF, Barry and MartyE, GGG, Guns and Willygee have been instrumental in furthering my Engineering Education on both DCS & Legacy controlled layouts. I have found if you use the knowledge they freely give here on the OGR, everything on your layout will run safely and perfectly.
PCRR/Dave
Dave,
Worth noting, again, that the purpose of the TVS in the TIU is to protect the TIU, not your trains. TVS diodes should be as close to the electronics you are trying to protect as possible. Ideally in the engine it's self, but at the track connections from feeders is simpler for most folks.
Sure one on the transformer is better than nothing, but recommending a $300+ command system to take advantage of a 50 cent TVS that is at the furthest possible point from it's most useful location just seems silly to me.
JGL
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