P&D F Unit detailing for CB&Q F3

• F unit grabs changed over their service.   Before you change/add them to the nose you may want to research CB&Q prototype practice for the era you want to model.  Frequently importers deliver their models with "as built" details.  In the case of nose ladders/grabs my road, the PRR, didn't apply them until the late 1950's.  Another thing you may want to consider is detailing the cabs in both A units.  You could do that by moving the cab motor in the powered A unit to the b end of the dummy A unit.   You may sacrifice some pulling power but depending on the length of your train and your grades the dividend might exceed the downside.

Ed Rappe

Probably the easiest and cleanest look would be as built from EMD. P&D sells a "passenger" pilot with coupler doors as were standard from EMD. They are offered in plastic and brass, with the plastic version being nicer (the brass one is asymmetrical).

 

Simon

The part in the red circle looks to me like the end of the lift bar for the front coupler.

to answer your question. the P&D maint. set does include the grab circled in green. I have used that set. the item circled red is a coupler lift handle.

 

I don't think so, as I'm pretty sure the coupler "cut lever" is in behind the pilot.

 

The other feature that is most often forgotten/overlooked is the worker "foot shelf" along the bottom of the Fireman's side of the carboy edge. Look closely in the photos, and you will see that narrow piece of diamond tread steal plate for a worker to place his toes on while accessing the grab irons for windshield cleaning.

Santiago

 

This looks like an interesting project, keep us posted.  Re which P&D pilot to use, I recommend the plastic one. Not only is the brass asymmetrical, as Simon posted,  it is not flexible. The plastic one can be contorted slightly to match the Atlas Pilots, in the likely chance the two are not a perfect match

Santiagop23,

 

If you are into CB&Q modeling, I recommend looking into the Burlington Route Historical Society (BRHS), and seeing all the information they have. If you don't belong to it, it is worth while to join as there are many members that can be of great assistance to you as well. You can find us at:

 

http://www.burlingtonroute.com/

 

Also, look at joining the CBQ Yahoo list at:

 

 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CBQ/info

 

This Yahoo group is free to join and there are many members from the BRHS that monitor the list can provide detailed information about the Q.

 

Check both sites out and have fun.

 

Ray

 

 

 

SANTIAGOP23:

 

Send me your e-mail address off line (mine is in my profile). I have something that may interest you

 

John Sethian

I'd love to, but I think I'll need every pound of pulling power these units have to pull an 7-9 car C Zephyr train!

 

Yes! I have parts PDP5141 for the door and PDP5140 for the passenger pilot already on my list!.

 

Great! Great! I'll add those to the list of parts!

 

Wow, you have the eyes of a lynx! To me the "unknown" pilot part looks like a door handle.

Great! Thanks, I'll check it out!

 

Already did! Thanks

 

The Atlas F3A unit. An easy improvement would be to extend the silver striping on the nose all the way to the number boards. I have micro scale sheets of silver, which I can trim to length and width and should give a nice finish with out painting. 

 

Some pictures I have gathered for the project...

 

Notice the silver stripping going all the way to the number boards... This one has a fire cracker antenna, I won't be adding it. Notice the grab iron on the top of the rear door. Here the pilot is open and the part on the side is tilted. Could the part be a handle to secure the pilot door? I'm speculating here...

 

You should be aware that the Burlington did NOT use those A-B-A "F" units on the CZ for very long. Originally the CZ "plan" was for each railroad, i.e. the CB&Q, the D&RGW, and the WP, to order corresponding passenger seat as well as diesel locomotive see for the "new CZ" operation. However, when the train actually went into service, the D&RGW cut the CB&Q "F" units off the train in Denver, and used their own D&RGW "F" units. The same thing happened in Salt Lake City, as the WP removed the D&RGW "F" units and used their own WP "F" units.

 

It didn't take the Burlington long to figure out that they had wasted their money on "F" units for mountain grade operations, when neither the D&RGW nor the WP would be allowing "run through" operations. The Burlington quickly ordered additional EMD E7A units, and replaced the A-B-A F3 sets with "E" units. The passenger A-B-A F3 sets were "down graded" to freight service, and although retaining their original road numbers, had the steam generators removed and re-geard for strictly freight service.

 

Thus, the photos of those F3 units in freight service are NOT representative of the short period of time that they were assigned to the CZ.

Ah, so that explains why I see E-7's and not F units on the CZ in "Streamliners," and "Domeliners." 

Correct. The CB&Q was definitely NOT a mountainous railroad, operating their passenger trains at speeds above 90MPH, and therefor had no use for "F" units in passenger service. The "E" units, i.e. E5A & E5B, E7A, E8A, and E9A units reigned supreme for Burlington passenger service. 

It appears from the photos including the HO models that the roofs on these units are painted a darker color that the all silver shown on the Atlas unit.[not a big deal to do if you do any painting or weathering]JMO

Anyone know any part numbers for the square type speed recorder?

 

I completely overlooked the box journals on the pd website...

 

PDP5821

Journal boxes, square, EMD Blomberg trk, silver, (4)

$ 7.50

SantiagoP23, the postcard depicts the CZ in Galesburg, Il.  Galesburg has historical significance because it was one of seven locations to host the Abraham Lincoln and Senator Stephen Douglas debates of 1858 with the principal topic being slavery. 

 

Galesburg also hosts, or at least hosted, a Railroad Days each year and was home to the static display of CB&Q's Hudson-type steam locomotive #3006.

 

Just a bit of historical context for your postcard.

I got in on this discussion right away within 10 minutes of your initial post and was corrected- not sure why his redirect and implied disregard of previous was made- this is based solely on what you the modeller wants to do.. Your era of time frame. These locomotives during the silver "aluminum" paint time frame had very few mods made by the shops from the factory. To most of us Q aficionados the usual maint dept changes implemented during shopings. 

I deleted my response.

After some thought I am going to add some notes here that are missing. I was waiting for the details from someone else.

All photos are copyright and used for research and educational use only:

These locomotives were modified 1-2 times after arrival from La Grange in 10/47 and stayed this way while used in passenger service likely 1949-1950 shopings as they came in. The Q did not like the F's in passenger service and retired them in 1954- regeared to freight specs in 1955. The mods are simple Q standard requirement maintenance grabs; factory improved number boards were also different than the small side view only boards found on many F3's of the time.

(From our friends at the Q Historical Society)

A third batch of Phase II F3's, also A/B/A sets, was purchased at the same time, but these were intended for passenger service on the new California Zephyr. Numbered 9960-9962, they were delivered in the passenger paint scheme of silver (aluminum paint) with black striping and lettering. They were the only F-units on the system with steam generators (in both the A- and B-units) and were the only ones lacking dynamic brakes. After they were bumped from the Zephyr in the early Fifties, they were regeared for freight service in 1955 and eventually repainted in the freight scheme. They kept their passenger numbers to the end, however.

9960A 10/47 4424 1 unit of ABA set #9960 Traded in on GP35 9/64 7
9960B 10/47 4430 1 unit of ABA set #9960 Traded in on GP40 1/67 7
9960C 10/47 4425 1 unit of ABA set #9960 SFS to PECO 11/65 7
9961A 10/47 4426 1 unit of ABA set #9961 Traded in on GP35 10/63 7
9961B 10/47 4431 1 unit of ABA set #9961 Traded in on GP35 10/63 7
9961C 10/47 4427 1 unit of ABA set #9961 Traded in on GP35 7/63 7
9962A 10/47 4428 1 unit of ABA set #9962 Traded in on GP35 9/63 7
9962B 10/47 4432 1 unit of ABA set #9962 Traded in on GP35 8/64 7
9962C 10/47 4429 1 unit of ABA set #9962

Those are cut-levers on the sides of the pilots. Standard passenger pilot feature. The Q liked the passenger pilots using them on "gray-back" freight units also.  I did notice the Atlas model has the freight pilot- ooopps
Mods include over the windshield and between to hood grabs and antenna. Also typical Q hood grabs and walkway for crew on engineer side as seen in your posted photo with the green circle (good job!). Photo courtesy M Powell taken 2/26/56 in freight service

Pilots remained the same except removal of factory doors. I'm uncertain for an exact date but likely on the first annual shoping. The E's were also modified similarly.

Unmodified views taken in 1947 used on train 39 the Exposition Flyer



Further mods included the "F3" plaque on the side of the cab.

A nice color view taken prior to mods 3/24/48 by C.H. Kerrigan (it could be noted that the mods to the pilot and maint grabs were carried out in 1950 or beginning in 1950 through 1952 as the locomotive sets were brought in on shopings)
Views showing mods performed on pilots. Removal of doors cut-levers remained the same in freight service as of the 2/26/56 top view

It's also worth noting the Gyra Light assembly stayed the same while in silver. The Pyle sealed units must have been installed after 1957.
Your notes on this photo are great- the red note is a standard passenger pilot cut-lever the locomotive was delivered with this design. You did note the maint crew walkway grab; look carefully right behind the anti-climber and you will see an "L" shaped walkway that protrudes about a scale 10" from the side of the cab related to the standard Q practice of maint grab work. It appears that this was done early in the locomotives life.  It can be surmised at least two different sets of mods were completed before the end of the locomotives career as a passenger unit in 1955.

Standard issue Q maint dept drawing explaining to installation dept heads the required safety additions to all units. Shows the maint grab installations you have noted on your photo. (C) Jerry Albin Collection

Courtesy Burlington Bulletin #42:
(Some insight into the Q's unusual move to buy F3's for passenger service.)

In August 1945, with the War at last ended, the Burlington - along with dozens of the nation's other railroads - placed a major order with EMD for both passenger and freight power.  The Q's proposed acquisitions were assigned four EMD order numbers. Order E-790 was for six four-unit, 6000-horsepower sets of F-units for freight service, numbered 115-121. Order E-792 was for five two unit, 4000 horsepower sets of E7 A-units (9926aB-9930AB), plus an additional single A unit the 9949. Order E-797 was for a pair of three-unit 4500 horsepower freight locomotives, numbered 160-161. And a fourth order, EMD's E-792 covered three sets of three unit 4500 horsepower passenger F-units to power the CZ between Chicago and Denver: boiler-equipped A/B/A F3's 9960-9962 with high speed gearing. Delivery of all this new power was over two years away, but when it commenced in September 1947, the E7's were the first units delivered. Clear, lead time on E-unit orders was no longer than the lead time for the F's, so the Q must have wanted the F3's for the California Zephyr. But why?

Although the actual reasoning behind the passenger F-unit acquisition has not been uncovered. A plausible explanation is that the Q, which precisely computed the horsepower necessary to move a given train, found that a 4000 horsepower pair of E7's would not be sufficient to move the planned 10-car CZ consists across the plains, while the addition of another 2000-horsepower E7 would substantially over-power the train. The cost effective solution lay in the 4500 horsepower available from three 1500 horsepower units - the F3. (remember that at the time the orders were placed in August 1945, the 1500 horsepower F3 did not even exist; the 1350 horsepower FT was still the F-unit in EMD's catalog, soon to be succeeded by the interim F2, a 1350 horsepower locomotive employing the FT's 567 engine with upgraded componentry that would become standard in the F3 with its 567A engine.)
Whether the truth may be? By the time the passenger F3s - 9960-9962 - were delivered in their silver (aluminum) paint during October 1947, the new CZ equipment was still a least a year away, so the F's could regularly be found on the point of the Expo. Even when the trains heavyweight consist grew long in the summer months, the 4500 horsepower of the three-unit F3 sets had no difficulty keeping the trains schedule time across the plains.

Eric - Very interesting analysis of the Burlington's motive power strategy.  It was said that EMD patterned it's E5/E6 A/B consists of 4000 horsepower to challenge the 3520 drawbar horsepower of the Burlington 4-6-4. Also considered were the NYC later 4-6-4's.

       In the 1950's it appeared that the Burlington settled on about 4000 horsepower in 3 unit F sets for freights operating in low gradient territory. Guess that approximated the drawbar pull of an O5 4-8-4. It didn't always work perfectly - - witnessed a trio of F's stalled at the Highlands in suburban Chicago territory in 1957, which required the engineer to make about 10 backward moves to take slack and make a run for it. He finally got his train moving - and my baseball coach didn't need to yell at me anymore to watch the game, as I gazed at the drama unfolding on the tracks!

hey Marc-

It is interesting. And the notes about the phase I E5 A/B sets very interesting. I am not a fan of the Q's F3's in silver- I am a absolute die hard fan of the E5- also Q steam but not that into the boring silver paint they applied after EMD refused to customize the E7 to stainless like the legendary E5.


       

Looks like I have my work cut out for me!

 

Erik, thank you so much for the wealth of visual information. I struggled for days to find a handful of pictures of these engines, I think this goes to show that printed publications are still the best source for in depth information. The internet, not so much. Also, I can generate the F3 logo with InDesign and print it on micro scale silver decal paper. I think it would be a nice touch. 

 

I'll place the order from pd next week, and I'll post pictures of every item once I get them. In the mean time I'll work on sampling various aluminum finishes to match the new pilot with the car body. 

 

Excited. Thanks again. You guys are amazing!

 

 

 

Santiago's 2nd to last posted photo was taken in Lincoln, NE in 1957. The units are still in nice looking aluminum paint. When were they repainted in the greyback scheme - anyone know?

this model has the walkway on the fireman's side. 

 

http://www.brasstrains.com/Cla...-B-A-Diesel-Set-9960

 

Also, the atlas units seem to have the fuel tank sitting a bit higher than they should. Am I right? I don't own any, so I'll have to wait to check.

 

The same detailing carried out on an E5.

Patt at P&D was really nice and helped me with some part numbers. If he ships my order this week, I'll get before the end of the year (about two weeks, since I live in Colombia). Like I said, I'll post pictures of every part I use for reference.

 

I also found this nice color photograph of these units...

 

 

Definitely watching here.  Have 5 cb&q Fs that need some attention.  Thanks for starting this thread Santiago.

The Atlas fuel tank is just all wrong.  I prefer the Lionel version.

 

Yep, for some reason they combined the batteries and the fuel tank compartments. I'll look into the Lionel ones, they seem to have some added details.

 

Before I placed my order I noticed a small part right in front of the fuel tank. It looks like a bell to me, but I'm not sure. I did order a couple of bells for the A's, which I'll use if you guys can confirm that. As far as I know, bells in F units are usually located behind the pilot on the fireman´s side.

 

 

 

 

Well, they were regeared for freight service in 1955.  The Burlington Bulletin #4 has a picture of them in grayback in 1962.  So somewhere within that 7 year window.  I would hazard to guess before 1960.

 

Rusty

I took you up on that and ordered Lionel fuel tanks. It was super easy to order from their spare parts site. 

 

There was a bit of a delay with the shipping of the F units, but should be on their way this week.

Santiago, glad to see you're still posting on your project and making progress.

 

Is this an easy swap?  I have a few extra Lionel F3 fuel tanks around and if they are better match, how easy is it to swap?  What about the speaker?  Do I just remove the Atlas one and drill / tap for the different screw location?

 

Thanks,

- Mario

Of course, Carl! I'm stoked! This project "forced" me to finally take on airbrushing. I've been trying out different silver paints, clear coats and seafoam greens for the cab! I'll report again when I get some parts.

 

They should be a better match. I've never done it, but shouldn't be difficult. I'm sure I'll have to drill or tap the Atlas frame. This picture is from a 3 rail unit on ebay and the other is from the Lionel spare parts website.

 

Santiago, I will be particularly interested in your silver paint results.  Looking forward to what you discover in these efforts--reporting even unsatisfactory results will help me and others avoid those products.

Yes, to replace the fuel tank with the Lionel you have to drill and tap the holes in the chassis.  And it is a bit of a pain to make sure they are in the right location. 

 

I do not recall if the speaker is a direct swap.  The Lionel speaker has a nice sound and there is a separate weight and cover plastic piece you can use with their speaker and tank, or with no speaker.

 

Don't tell Scott Mann but I replace all the fuel tanks on my 3rd Rail E and F units with Lionel ones too.  It's a pain too because I have to grind out the ends for the tank drives but...

 

Both the Atlas and the 3rd Rail tanks are undersize, noticeably so.  Santiago, your going to be surprised at how much larger the Lionel tank is when you receive it.  It's going to make the side flaps on the shell look a bit small.

Will Sunset do correct size fuel tanks on the upcoming F7 units? I thought Scott was up on getting these details right.

 Santiago, in your tests of silver paint, did you try this one?