Paucity of postings

I have to agree with you. I think a lot of folks are focused on York opening to the public and have gotten talked out by discussing the topic so thoroughly.   I also think that as time goes on, we each get to know more and more of our fellow forumites and we get to know them better. This, at least to me, leads to doing a lot of socializing in person while we are at the meet. As such, there seems to be less to talk about online.

A bit of a humorous anecdote if I may – my wife gave me a call around 3 pm on Thursday and as we were talking she asked me how the meet was going. I replied it was going great but that I had actually spent more time talking to people than actually looking for trains. Don’t get me wrong – this is a wonderful thing to have happen! It’s just that even 5 years ago I didn’t necessarily know enough people in the hobby to talk to outside of the OGR dinner.

-Greg

Yes- I have to agree with you. Seemed like it came and went without fanfare. I could not make it this year so I was hoping to live vicariously through others what they saw as well as what they purchased. Well I am looking forward to April!

I think I spend more time chatting than looking, and as Greg says, that's just fine with me.   I spend less money but enjoy the meet just the same.

I think there was less pre-York posting, aside from the "public in April" stuff. But heaven knows, Eddie tried.  

I agree, not much chatter after the event. Seems that before people would be listing all the goodies they bought. and  the dealer displays. If  the meet was well attended that is what is most important.

Aren't the most "earth shattering" new  product offerings typically announced during the spring York meet? Fall is usually a rehash of items, at least as far as Lionel is concerned.

Lionels legacy Reading T1 would have been interesting, but there was no "operating " model and the one on the display shelf was waaaay off in the color department souring the excitement.

 Less prelude; less during, less after. What was present was an air of uncertainty about the changes there. Also there were concerns thrown about here on the areas safety, which was definetly new to me.

The OGR sale sort of stopped things dead on the tracks too.

You aren't dreaming, the topic took a dip IMO. I don't think I even saw a single scrapple post

I save all my Modular Layout pics for the Friday Photo Funs for the next few weeks.

I usually have one set of pics dedicated to the Manufacturer Displays.......but Lionel's display wasn't worth the digital space in my camera's memory.....

I didn't get there until late Thursday night, and consequently, I missed a lot of people I normally see....I have less to talk about.....Since I was there only one day, I really rushed through the Halls...........April will be here sooner than you think!  

Peter

I couldn't make it to York this time around but I would have liked to see more photo's of the dealer displays and whats new coming down the road.

York just isn't the "big deal" that it was 5 to 10 years ago. Other than Allentown, York has become the smallest show we do. That's why the pressure has been brought to bear to get the Eastern Division to do something to get more people there. We used to make a little profit at these shows, but we have not covered our costs at York for several years. 

Well I thought I knew everything.....LOL   Paucity.....I had to look it up.  Never came across that word before and I've been around the block more than a few times.

There are fewer York Meet posts because there's less to whine and complain about than before. Sure, there's always something that some will complain about, but I think most let out their emotions in the now closed 'open to the public' thread. 

It seems with all the whining about taking pictures at the Meet, it turned out to not be a big deal after all.  I didn't take any pictures because I was having so much fun shopping, socializing and enjoying the trains I didn't think of it. 

If you are losing money, why do you go to York?

Its the big bi-annual social event for the 65 and up club. Get together and BS all day and ya wonder why more and more tables are empty. You don't have to wait til York to get together for dinner. O Scale West, Cal Stewart on the west coast.... same thing. What else is there to say.

The younger generation like myself socialize on social media, and buy online. It's far too expensive to travel 2500 miles just to socialize. When I bought stuff at York I had to lug it home through multiple airports to stuff in the plane's overhead, and I won't do that again. I can find just as good of deals online and fix/upgrade stuff myself.

I have several shows on my bucket list and am slowly checking them off. Unfortunately the results are the same. I haven't found one yet that I would shell out all that $$$$ again to travel to. I'm not bashing any of them, that's just the facts.

eddie g posted:

If you are losing money, why do you go to York?

May I ask, whom are you addressing with this question, sir?

Wait a minute..... I thought the proposed changes for the York Meet were about getting more people exposed to the hobby, not about profit margins.  Or is it?!

Not gonna do much good to get more people there if vendors keep dropping like flies

Wait a minute..... I thought the proposed changes for the York Meet were about getting more people exposed to the hobby, not about profit margins.  Or is it?!

In one of the other York threads, a person in the know stated that the York show has been losing money lately. One can only assume that one of the reasons for the change is to have the show either break even or make a profit.

Some of the attitudes here could be to blame as much as anyone else for the decline in the York Train meet.

Much like laidofsick says most younger folks would rather stay home and shop online.  They don't socialize like their parents used to so why go to York or any train show.  When I grew up kids, parents, and neighbors were all out and socializing during the summer.  Now the kids are nowhere to be found, neighbors sit in their AC homes and watch 800+ channels of cable and satellite TV.

I go to York to socialize, which probably doesn't help OGRs bottom line much, but I also go to buy.  Sure I can buy online but where's the fun in that? York will be around for a long time.  It may not be the huge meet it once was but I suspect all train related shows and meets are facing down turns.  York just seems to get the brunt of the beating for it. 

We used to make a little profit at these shows, but we have not covered our costs at York for several years. 

Do you make a profit at those larger shows?

I ask because some folks believe that while the attendance at York may be lower, sales are higher because the folks that attend York are there to spend, not just kick the tires.

Some of the Orange Hall vendors that I know well enough to chat with have told me that they were cutting back their presence at York because of the cost to attend. Others because they were tired of schlepping their stuff back and forth. (Three days of selling is tiring!) In all cases, the folks have a successful mail order business, so they really didn't need York to sell their wares.

eddie g posted:

If you are losing money, why do you go to York?

Somewhere there's got to be a refrigerator missing its appliance bulb....

There's far, far more to attending show than just sales.  For businesses it's also about having a presence on site and waving the flag & banner, meet & greet subscribers and the rest of the public, showing the name and wares, advertising for later sales, and this is particularly so for publishing concerns.  Consider what would result if OGR mag failed to show up w/o any fanfare or announcements.....this forum would within minutes overflow with endless pages of speculation, myth, rumor, and general panic.  That would of course provide many hours (days?) of hilarity and entertainment....... 

Not much of a B.S. er... And I guess I haven't made many people contacts yet... other than our club members and  Norm C. I rarely see anyone I know....

I went for the first time last spring with a couple of close colleagues and we had our WARRIOR game face on. We had no time for chit chat. We had our ninja list and cell phones lock on for quick communication just in case we found what the other was looking for. It worked too. I found a set of hard to find Lionel E6 Rock Islands, and Burlington E5's. Also a Lionel die-cast UP turbine...

Towards the end of the show it became a contest on who could spend more of each others money quicker as the search and destroy mission came into full swing...

Of course I was the first man out by the second day as my 2K in cash was a mere pittance of coin to sustain a long term shopping spree.

But the ninja trip continued with a visit to the  Strasburgh Railroad, Pennsylvania Railroad museum, Altoona railroad museum and a photo shoot at the curve...

My legs and feet hurt for week, my arms hurt from carrying trains, my belly was full of great food and Yuengling, and my wallet was empty, but I cannot wait to do it all over again.

I always enjoyed the large Atlas Layout. I was very disappointed when I saw it wasn't there. I commented to them that I thought they would want to show it off to the public. Their reply was, "all the more reason not to have it here". I believe they feared there may have been allot of touching. I did notice vehicles coming in and not able to find a place to park. I wonder how many parking places are actually left for the public after all us members near fill the lot?

Dave Zucal posted:

I wonder how many parking places are actually left for the public after all us members near fill the lot?

According to folks here in the doom and gloom category, the lots aren't full.  I will say when I started the infield to the grandstand track used to fill up as well.  I haven't looked out there lately so I'm not sure if it's filled up.

The toy train hobby is changing, no doubt. When you see the local hobby stores closing, the magazines are fewer and thinner, shows are smaller and prices are sky high. I was in my LHS yesterday to buy a magazine(not worth the price) I looked at his large collection of current  RR engine  models from the  manufacturers plus the buildings I don't know how people do it. Now with large medical plan fee increases coming that will further squeeze people out of the market. Not only trains- military models, RC planes BUT they were starting to get in their Xmas inventory.  Many big boxes around.

Anyone besides me go to gun shows? The big 2,000 table ones (4 per year) in Oaks, PA draw huge crowds, but I'm not sure how much buying vs. looking goes on. In any event, you are lucky to find a parking place. A decent hand gun can run from $500. to $800.+, and a box of 50 .38 special ammo $20. The main reason I go is to pick up target oriented ammo, since gun shops and even on-line sources concentrate on the "home defense"/high power stuff. Going to York, however, is great fun for me, and it makes me sad to miss one. If I miss a big gun show, no problem.

Granted, I live only 2 hours from York...but I would continue going if it was half the size. I would not care if the "major players" (like Lionel) did not show up, especially since they don't actually SELL anything at York. BTW, the gun oriented companies to not have booths at gun shows.

Joe Hohmann posted:

 would not care if the "major players" (like Lionel) did not show up, especially since they don't actually SELL anything at York. BTW, the gun oriented companies to not have booths at gun shows.

While it wasn't "trains" Lionel was selling Christmas decorations, shirts, and other wearable items.  I don't think Lionel would sell trains there and compete against their dealers. 

Joe Hohmann posted:

 Going to York, however, is great fun for me, and it makes me sad to miss one.

I agree 100%.

I am going to address this question to the webmaster.  If York is considered a small show by your organization and I thought it was a pretty large event the one and only time I attended, what is larger and where is it held because I would like to attend?  BTW, I think Allentown is a fairly large show also, well worth the drive but I guess if you aren't turning a profit then things have to change.

I intended to cut back on time spent at York because over the last few years I have found I can find old stuff cheaper on the net (some York prices are hilarious) and there is little new being produced that is of interest to me. However I then heard the nearby O scale show would begin the week...it, too, was unproductive. I found other sightseeing to fill time once devoted to vanished open shows, but I had thought I had exhausted that previously.  I go to shop and look at and for new or different trains. Ain't findin' much lately. It's a long drive and expensive time for a kaffe klatch so I go for the trains. To me it looked like the buyers were there but the sellers and merchandise were not.

Dan Padova posted:

Well I thought I knew everything.....LOL   Paucity.....I had to look it up.  Never came across that word before and I've been around the block more than a few times.

Likewise....

So, for the benefit of others.......a 'Word of the Day'.....

Origin

late Middle English: from Old French paucite or Latin paucitas, from paucus ‘few.’

.................

 DKDKRD, Cool!

Yup.

frankm

I have a few friends who just returned from York with suitcases full of some really nice stuff.  I am looking forward to a York trip someday.  It is a long way from CA.

The two events that I really want to attend are the OGR Forum Grandstand and the OGR social at the restaurant.  I would disappointed if OGR was not at the show but I do understand the need to make sound business decisions.

NH Joe

Seems odd that a magazine that directly addresses the subject and most common scale of York, vs. all those other shows awash in HO and N, is not benefiting from its presence. Are those shows paved with old Athearn HO,, actually more financially rewarding to OGR? (emphasis on the "O")

colorado hirailer posted:

Seems odd that a magazine that directly addresses the subject and most common scale of York, vs. all those other shows awash in HO and N, is not benefiting from its presence. Are those shows paved with old Athearn HO,, actually more financially rewarding to OGR? (emphasis on the "O")

Their "audience" is either already a subscriber or they are not interested.  Remember OGR also sells AmeriTown buildings, videos, and other layout odds and ends as well.  I imagine you get a few additional subscribers there but I believe at York, you're preaching to the choir.  That's why a public show where outsiders come in helps in OGR's case.  It's new blood who wants to see what it's all about.  Magazines are a great place to find that.  Their other products though is something everyone can use even if not interested in a magazine.

Here is how I experienced this York Meet, for anyone that cares.  

Still recovering from my York Meet hangover. Sundays after the York Meet is like the first day back to work after being off for the Christmas holidays! Lynley and I had so much fun being around all the trains, buying some wonderful treasures and visiting with friends and meeting new ones. This event is always one of the best highlights of the year for me. I can't stop smiling the whole time I'm there.

We started off on Wednesday:
Visiting Craig's (Forum member Craignor) marvelous layout, then joining Craig and Bill and Paula Webb for a great dinner.

After dinner we headed up I-83 to York to check into our hotel. We only live about 75 minutes from the Fairgrounds but enjoy staying in York during the festivities.

After checking in we headed over to see the last part of the DCS meeting to meet up with friends and get a copy of the new MTH catalog. Once we arrived at the DCS meeting, I received a surprise from my wife, who along with Dotty Perry handed me one of Dotty's custom made railroad shirts. I was surprised and thrilled, and of course, it has diesels on it!

After the DCS meeting concluded we headed over the the Round the Clock Diner for a dessert nightcap with some attendees, which has been a custom for several years now. Back to the hotel then, already tired, to browse through the MTH catalog.

Thursday:
Got to the fairgrounds early to mingle in the Orange Hall lobby before the opening. It's so much fun to see friends from all over and catching up with them.

Once the Orange Hall opened we walked the aisles in search of goodies to get for the layout. We made a couple quick purchases, but since my wife no longer requires a scooter to get around, we had to lug our goodies back to the car which cut short some of our shopping time. Time was short as we had to leave at 3:30pm to drive to Philadelphia to attend the Philadelphia Flyers home opener. It was train and hockey day for us!

After leaving the Meet at 3:30 traffic was getting heavier as we got close to Philly during rush hour traffic. We arrived at the Wells Fargo Center 30 minutes before face-off and in enough time to see the Flyers 50th Anniversary video before the game. After the game we headed back to York, arriving at around 12:30am.

Friday:
Back to the Orange Hall to walk through the aisles we missed on Thursday. 

We met up with my cousins for a tailgate lunch way out by the Carlisle Ave. entrance gate. It was great to catch up with them, chat about our families and of course our trains and layouts. Just as we were finishing up with lunch, as the clouds were looming above, they set up the canopy tent and finished just seconds before the skies opened up. With the wind blowing the rain around we all huddled near the center of the canopy to prevent getting wet. Luckily, the storm subsided after a half hour and we all headed out to various buildings.

Entered the Purple Hall and visited with my friends at Just Trains and bought a few goodies there. Then over to the Black Hall to view the National Capital Trackers huge layout. It was a site to behold, a very interesting track plan going around over and under, sometimes twice, around the room. And that monstrous bridge.... there's just something magical about a train crossing a long bridge.

After the Halls closed for the day we headed over to Cheddar's Restaurant for a great dinner. The ribeye was sensational!

Saturday:
By Saturday morning, the feet and knees and legs were aching, but when heading back to the Meet, there was no pain! This is the day I go back through the dealer halls to view the manufacturer's displays, look for items I missed and to pick up some final items I usually wait until Saturday to buy. Traditionally for me, Saturday is the day I seem to do most of my buying. I've always gotten great deals on Saturday and this time did not disappoint. I LOVE SATURDAYS AT THE YORK MEET!!

We also visited all of the member halls to maybe find something I may have missed out on when new. Unfortunately, on our way from the Blue Hall to the Red Hall, an ambulance and rescue vehicle were parked at the Orange Hall with sirens blaring. As we later found out, a gentleman suffered a heart attack and was whisked to the hospital. I pray that he will recover.

One last visit to the Orange Hall scored me a MTH SD60E "Honoring Our Veterans" locomotive at a great price! Did I say I love Saturdays at York?!

We met up with the son of one of our Northern Central Hi-Railers group members, who was driving to York by himself for the first time. He was so excited to be there, even for a few hours. At the end of the Meet we took him with us and treated him to lunch at Latucca's, as is our tradition when the York Meet is over. The best cheesesteaks outside of Philly, maybe even better says this cheesesteak connoisseur.

Driving home is sad. We always have so much fun at the York Meet, visiting with friends every day, some great meals and all those trains and just being around so many people with a common interest. Heading east on Rt. 30, as we cross over the Susquehanna River, I physically feel myself being extracted from "The Vortex of Fantasy" that is the York Meet. But when I get home, after unloading all the goodies, it's time to sit back with a cold ice tea, rest my feet and take a nap.

Sunday:
Nothing. I'm still tired, so I just watched football all day, and thought about all the items I left on the tables at York. I wish they held the Meet four times a year!!

Brian

Sounds like you make the most of York!  Nice report! 

necrails posted:

...If York is considered a small show by your organization and I thought it was a pretty large event the one and only time I attended, what is larger and where is it held because I would like to attend?

York is not "...considered..." to be a small show...it IS a small show. Ask MTH, Lionel, Atlas, Bachmann, Ross, Miller Engineering, Scenery Express and almost any other industry vendor this same question and you will get the same answer. York is the smallest show we do in terms of attendance.

Every one of the World's Greatest Hobby shows draw more people than York does. The Big E show is larger than York. Trainfest is larger than York. And those shows draw in people who don't know about us. In other words, potential new  subscribers. As MartyE posted above, York is largely "preaching to the choir."

colorado hirailer posted:

Seems odd that a magazine that directly addresses the subject and most common scale of York, vs. all those other shows awash in HO and N, is not benefiting from its presence. Are those shows paved with old Athearn HO,, actually more financially rewarding to OGR? (emphasis on the "O")

The WGH shows, The Big E, Trainfest, etc. are not more financially rewarding as far as direct sales at the show. We don't cover our costs there, either. However, what those shows offer that York does not is contact with potential new subscribers and customers who have never heard of us before. They are the future. They are the "top of the funnel" folks and they are critically important to the success of any business.

From a social point of view we still enjoy going to York. It's an opportunity to see friends that we only get to see at York. But we also have to be aware of the business side of things. If we don't cover our costs to be there and there are no "top of the funnel" people there, at some point we have to ask ourselves whether it is worth it to do a small show like York.

The Eastern Division's efforts to bring the public into the show is the right thing to do. They can essentially stage TWO shows for the price of one. We vendors are all set up...the layouts are all set up...why not invite the public in? You get 2 days of a member-only trading meet and 2 days of a public show, all at one venue with only one setup/teardown cycle for the vendors. What's not to like about that?

With the potential for signing up a few additional subscribers among the public audience, we could actually cover our costs in April. 

Certainly it's true that the Big "E" train show in Springfield Mass is considerably larger than York. It's a much better place to go and be exposed to the model railroading hobby. 
And if your interest is in current production "O" gauge trains, Springfield may even be almost as good as going to York to see what's new and to pick up a few pieces.
But if your interest is in collecting older trains (any brand, any gauge), then Springfield cannot hold a candle to York.

I find the Springfield show to be well worth the 90 -120 minute one way drive it takes for me to get there (if the roads and weather are clear). It would not be worth the 6 hour one way drive it takes me to get to York.

So I hope the Eastern Division has found a good balance between satisfying vendors, operators, and keeping collectors happy too. 

Collecting may be a dying hobby. But if it is, operating "O" gauge trains isn't far behind. The two are intertwined.

  TWGH shows have had a surprisingly good draw in the past IMO. But the O presence was basically not there when I went. A LEGO city was the big draw, and the actual sales focus was small scales. I was itching to buy went home empty handed. Most families were there from hearing good media coverage on the LEGO city, the train aspect was redundant for many, that was obvious. Heck one vender was RC only and flying drones around.

  But it was great exposure for the hobby. A "show" in the most theatrical sense of corporate marketing; though I''d prefer a "big swap meet", I enjoyed the day.