Please reconsider the "no replies allowed" policy on the for-sale and WTB threads...

After 3 pages of "discussion" on this topic, I wouldn't be surprised, nor would I blame Mr. Melvin and his staff if they did away with the FS/WTB threads. It's a free service, not a birthright. IMO.

Just devils advocate, why can't you update the status via the editing the original post.  Seems like half the people that responded here are in favor of keeping it as is. 

Personally I can see both sides point. 

I like the open forum on buy and sell. The adults here can point out the bad guys. But then I voted for John Wayne as a write in.

Clarence Siman posted:

 It's a free service, not a birthright. IMO.

That's why we're "respectfully" offering out thoughts and suggestions.  No one's demanding anything.  No one's threatening "Cancel My Subscription," etc. etc.   I'm sure we're all going to continue using the service either way!  

One of the primary objections, it seems, to once again allowing responses – like PRICE DROP -- to Buy/Sell threads is that it pushes newer items back in the queue.   People don’t want you to respond to your own thread with “Price Drop.” Edit the original post, people will read through back pages of items, people will find your item. Or so goes the conventional wisdom. And to that I say, it being Sunday, consider the Parable of the Lost Diesel.

A couple of months ago I listed a Lionel Legacy Burlington Northern diesel engine for sale. Listed it for a price that I figured was comparable to what they were selling for on Internet auction sites. Unfortunately I had no nibbles. I received no inquiries, no low-ball offers, nada. By this time, maybe a week or two had gone by, and the listing was now pushed back to Page Three, I think, give or take a few lines. So I thought I’d try something. I edited my original listing, which kept it on page three, rather than delete it and start a new thread. I reduced the price….to $100. Yes, a Lionel Legacy diesel for $100. (And if that deal weren't sweet enough, I offered FREE SHIPPING!  LOL)  Thought I’d see just how many people actually flip through the old For Sale listings. Amazingly no one bought it. I never heard from a soul. Again, no one e-mailed me with any questions. No one asking “Is this for real?” No low-ball offers (I was waiting for someone to write, “$100…would you take $85??)  

The fact that a Legacy engine for a hundred bucks on page three draws no response seems to indicate that not a ton of people are willing to scroll through pages and pages of For Sale threads.

Under the previous system, if you responded to your own thread and reduced the price of a Legacy diesel to $100, how long would it sit there unclaimed? 10 minutes? 2 minutes? 30 seconds? (I also tried a similar experiment with an MTH Premier 33k tank car from last year’s catalog that was not drawing any interest. Reduced price…50 cents. No one responded.)

Maybe there are some out there who wonder, “Why didn’t you delete it and post a new thread titled “PRICE DROP?” That’s all well and good but what’s the big different between doing that and responding to your own thread? Creating a new, reduced-price thread would’ve pushed the other items down one slot on the page. It would’ve added another topic to Recent Posts, which apparently is a real irritant for some folks. (I know, you waste all that time scrolling down the Recent Posts column and think, “there’s 10 seconds of my life I’ll never get back.)

Just thought I’d pass that along. I’m grateful for the Buy/Sell Forum either way.  

I always liked replies on the buy / sell board, it keeps thing up to date.  I wish some of the sellers would list where they are from so we could figure out shipping or pick-up.

ogaugeguy posted:

With many of you still clamoring for a return to the former Buy/Sell forum rules, even after Rich stated that he'd spend 2+ hours daily moderating it under those rules, is it any surprise it was announced during the Fall York meet that Rich is contemplating selling OGR and retiring?

Just to be absolutely clear on this, one has nothing to do with the other.

Jim, Ed and I actually contemplated offering the company for sale last year, but decided we wanted one more year. Moderation of the For Sale Forum has nothing to do with our decision to sell the company. It has everything to do with the act that Jim and I are now 70 years old and Ed is 73. It's time.

I continue to read the pros and cons expressed in this thread. I'm still not sure what we're going to do just yet, but we are going to  discuss this in a staff meeting soon. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on this issue.

MIKATT1 posted:

I always liked replies on the buy / sell board, it keeps thing up to date.  I wish some of the sellers would list where they are from so we could figure out shipping or pick-up.

Ok on knowing location but also I think shipping included CONUS is a really smart marketing tool. Knowing the final price is somehow a closer.

OGR Webmaster posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

With many of you still clamoring for a return to the former Buy/Sell forum rules, even after Rich stated that he'd spend 2+ hours daily moderating it under those rules, is it any surprise it was announced during the Fall York meet that Rich is contemplating selling OGR and retiring?

Just to be absolutely clear on this, one has nothing to do with the other.

Jim, Ed and I actually contemplated offering the company for sale last year, but decided we wanted one more year. Moderation of the For Sale Forum has nothing to do with our decision to sell the company. It has everything to do with the act that Jim and I are now 70 years old and Ed is 73. It's time.

I continue to read the pros and cons expressed in this thread. I'm still not sure what we're going to do just yet, but we are going to  discuss this in a staff meeting soon. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on this issue.

I think a lot of us knew this but good to know that your decision to "retire" is not from the stress of running the Forum. Also I should say that your success here is testament to your admin rules however they may have seemed to us at the moment.

Thank you for your service to our hobby. 

Life will go forward, with or without the "reply option". 

MIKATT1 posted:

I always liked replies on the buy / sell board, it keeps thing up to date.  I wish some of the sellers would list where they are from so we could figure out shipping or pick-up.

dave, if you click on the sellers name, his/hers profile should appear,with a location and state they reside in. i use this alot when someone makes an offer on my for sale items just to get a rough idea of the shipping distance. also the more info i see about that person,the better i feel about doing business with them.....you guys with the empty profiles are not huring anyone but yourselves....

I would add another vote to change things back to the way they were. The activity on the buy/sell boards has seemed to slow down since the rules were changed. Thanks Rich for at least giving this some additional thought.

mike.caruso posted:

... The fact that a Legacy engine for a hundred bucks on page three draws no response seems to indicate that not a ton of people are willing to scroll through pages and pages of For Sale threads. ...

 

Mike, and anyone else that's experienced a similar situation, let's compare to level-set what we're discussing.  

• OGR forum: a free venue in which to offer stuff for sale.  No listing or final sale fee.  If an item falls off page 1, possibly less visibility and reduced opportunity to sell.  Opportunity for people to "game" the system, bumping their item up in exposure.  

• Fleabay and similar: listing fee. An item is on page 1 from the get-go only if: (a) the potential buyer uses the right search terms; and (b) the volume of items responding to similar search terms isn't so great as to push your item down.  If your item sells, you pay a final sales fee.  If it doesn't sell, you still eat the listing fee.  Your sale price is partially depndent (in some cases) on your feedback quantity and quality.  If you relist, there's substantial data that has shown fewer people are interested in a re-listed item and/or will make low-ball offers. 

I and many friends have been buying/selling in many auction venues since the 1990s and, as such, methinks folks here don't understand the benefit they are getting in this site's "for sale" forum.  You have an audience that's purely of the same mindset (O gauge folks) and an opportunity that is at least equal to any paid site in terms of showcasing your item. And it is offered here for free.  There is no perfect system, but there are certainly other options for anyone who doesn't see the benefits of what is offered here.  So, once again, I find myself concluding that some folks are looking a gift horse in the mouth. 

Peter

I've bought & sold stuff under both sets of rules.  Over the weekend I sold books/accessories from page 1 and page 5.  People will take the time to shop.  Not everyone  looks at the forum every day.  Some may only look on weekends.

I say leave it the way it is now, "FREE".

Oh yeah, I live in the "Live Free or Die" State, New Hampshire.

With the time commitment that moderation requires, has any consideration been given to the idea of OGR appointing certain volunteers as trustees to moderate particular sub-forums such as buy/sell or wanted to buy? Wouldn't this solve the issue?

I posted on page 1 in this thread about how I haven't heard back from a seller I emailed three days earlier. The fellow did reply to my email and apologized for the delay as he had forgotten about the new "No Reply" rule plus the email address in this profile is not one he checks often. My transaction with him is on track now.

As for what to do about the 'For Sale or Trade' and 'Wanted"' forums perhaps one solution is to require all forum users to have an email address associated with their profile to help with making contact? Am aware if the email address is not checked on a timely basis or if a phony (invalid) email address is used still would have trouble communicating.

Personally I like the current set up better than the old way as the bumping/email sent posts got annoying quickly. I also recognize the usefulness of being able to post replies and share information but those were in the minority compared to all the bumping that went on. A possible solution is to moderate the forum allowing replies but if a seller keeps bumping they get two warnings and on third offense be banned from listing items for sale. Don't know if the forum software can allow someone to log in but deny access to one ('For Sale' forum in this example) forum? I agree a 'Price Drop' is sort of an gray area - it's not simply a bump but still is a form of bumping. I would give price drop replies a pass but give it a limit of two price drops on a listing so it won't get out of hand.

GregR posted:

With the time commitment that moderation requires, has any consideration been given to the idea of OGR appointing certain volunteers as trustees to moderate particular sub-forums such as buy/sell or wanted to buy? Wouldn't this solve the issue?

On the surface this seems to be a good idea, and we have tried it in the past. It didn't work out too well. After that experience, we established a policy that all moderators must be employees of OGR Publishing, Inc.

No, I'm not going to hire someone to moderate a forum where we make zero dollars! 

Still reading the thread...

In doing a very UN-scientific tally of the opinions expressed here, so far the majority would like to see a change back to the old rules.

We are considering it...

Please folks...let's not have a discussion here about minor issues related to who said what in previous posts in this thread.

Re-read the OP's post and then express your opinion on that post only, please.

Thank you.

I would like to see it changed back to the old way.  Most of the limitations/issues noted in this thread regarding bumping, random discussions starting up,  etc are factual, no disagreement here.  

However, in the past 2 months I emailed two "sellers" about items and never got any response.  Kept checking the post and then after about 3 days, the posting was updated to say that the items were sold.  Much more frustrating than the way it used to be.  As a consequence I have reduced the time I spend even looking at the for sale and WTB listings.    

One other thought to consider.  In the many years I have been a forum member I had only one bad experience dealing with a seller, but it was bad and resulted in a string of emails full of vulgarities.  Six or so months ago, that same member was trying to sell another item.  I contacted the OGR member that had expressed  interest in buying and simply forwarded a copy of the "over the top insulting" emails I received from that individual and told him to be careful.   He wrote back with many thanks for the warning.  

OGR Webmaster posted:

In doing a very UN-scientific tally of the opinions expressed here, so far the majority would like to see a change back to the old rules.

FOR	AGAINST
29	13

We are considering it...

Rich,

One thing that I would ask you to consider is the impact that allowing replies might do to the Recent Posts sidebar on the webpage.  I usually come to the forum a couple of times a day.  First time I look at a couple of the individual sub-forums (like the the 3RS, High-Rail, and For Sale) and then the other times I take a look at the sidebar.  For me, this is an efficient use of my time, AND it gets me a peek at topics that might be of interest in some of the other sub-forums.  Don't replies to For Sale posts drive down the other topics from the other sub-forums that are in the Recent Posts ? 

I don't mind replies to individual For Sale threads (as a Buyer or Seller I actually prefer this option)  What I don't like is having replies bump a listing to the top of the For Sale sub-forum and possibly bumping the sale listing to the top of the Recent Posts sidebar.  For me the ideal solution would be to allow replies if they don't bump a listing to the top of the page.

Jim

jd-train posted:

One thing that I would ask you to consider is the impact that allowing replies might do to the Recent Posts sidebar on the webpage. Don't replies to For Sale posts drive down the other topics from the other sub-forums that are in the Recent Posts ? 

What I don't like is having replies bump a listing to the top of the For Sale sub-forum and possibly bumping the sale listing to the top of the Recent Posts sidebar.  For me the ideal solution would be to allow replies if they don't bump a listing to the top of the page.

Jim

Rich already posted on page 1 about this:

I like the new version, less clutter, easier to view more items.

Dave

Dtrainmaster posted:

I like the new version, less clutter, easier to view more items.

Dave

Ditto, Dave. I think another consideration of whether to return to the former Buy/Sell forum rules is its impact on the primary reason most forumites use this board. Is it mostly used to gain usable knowledge of model railroading or to engage in the commerce of buying and selling trains? If it's to gain knowledge then a return to the old Buy/Sell rules will to a degree impede that use since the sidebar will once again be bombarded and filled by the bumping of the same Buy/Sell threads detrimentally pushing the non Buy/Sell threads off the sidebar much sooner than now happens and thereby harder to view knowledge imparting items since they'll be disappearing from the sidebar much sooner than they do now.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Jim Berger posted:

i would not object to allowing replies as long as the topic was not bumped back to the top of the 1st page

A reply WILL bump the post to the top of the page. That's just how it works and that can't be changed.

Assuming the biggest issue was "the bump" - I would bug the snot out of the Hoopla/SocialStrata guys to get this sort thing changed if I were you (to allow comments, but not have the comment date drive the order/sort by query).  I'm an IT guy and can tell you that making the "order/sort by" a configurable option per board shouldn't be a big deal, so applying pressure to them seems like a good route to take.  

I'm not sure how big a customer you are for them, so of course your requests to them could be ignored.  It'd be good to understand your relationship with Hoopla/SocialStrata better, do you all submit change requests or suggestions to them?  

They may come back and tell you "no way" or they might surprise you, heck you may have already asked a number of times, if so I regret restating the obvious.

Best...Rich Murnane

..but, the for sale items are also a veiwer draw. I know it was on my mind when I joined. Any real interest means a new member for contact privileges alone. Being "in the door" is half the work.

Right now: ten threads that may or may not be selling; I can't tell.

Four that are defiantly sales related. Two FS & two for sponsors.

25+ assorted threads "on top", counting "brand moral boosters".

Maybe you should revert back to the old way of allowing the comments and DISABLE the "report reply" option. Then the moderators won't be flooded with "reports" from people who are not interested in buying/selling the item anyway.

OR:

Just get rid of it all together and let people turn to social media to sell their items. That's free and if you post to the right groups the item(s) will be seen by more people anyway. Less drama here for everyone HERE. Either way, you can't please all of the people all of the time. 

I still can NOT believe this has become such an issue. It's actually pretty entertaining to read some of this stuff, better than many NFL games these days.

I for one liked the response capability.  I have only recently started using the Recent Post Sidebar so I didn't realize the  replies effected the sidebar.  I used to scroll through the FSOT forum everyday, it appeared to me that once you got past the first 3 or 4 pages a lot of the items were no longer available, either sold, went to e-bay, or just no longer available because there was no apparent interest in a timely manner.  Replies let me know if items were still in play, others were interested or even if the were issues that quelled my interest.  I find myself checking this forum less often now that replies are not allowed.

PJB posted:

mike.caruso posted:

... The fact that a Legacy engine for a hundred bucks on page three draws no response seems to indicate that not a ton of people are willing to scroll through pages and pages of For Sale threads. ...

 

Mike, and anyone else that's experienced a similar situation, let's compare to level-set what we're discussing.  

• OGR forum: a free venue in which to offer stuff for sale.  No listing or final sale fee.  If an item falls off page 1, possibly less visibility and reduced opportunity to sell.  Opportunity for people to "game" the system, bumping their item up in exposure.  

• Fleabay and similar: listing fee. An item is on page 1 from the get-go only if: (a) the potential buyer uses the right search terms; and (b) the volume of items responding to similar search terms isn't so great as to push your item down.  If your item sells, you pay a final sales fee.  If it doesn't sell, you still eat the listing fee.  Your sale price is partially depndent (in some cases) on your feedback quantity and quality.  If you relist, there's substantial data that has shown fewer people are interested in a re-listed item and/or will make low-ball offers. 

I and many friends have been buying/selling in many auction venues since the 1990s and, as such, methinks folks here don't understand the benefit they are getting in this site's "for sale" forum.  You have an audience that's purely of the same mindset (O gauge folks) and an opportunity that is at least equal to any paid site in terms of showcasing your item. And it is offered here for free.  There is no perfect system, but there are certainly other options for anyone who doesn't see the benefits of what is offered here.  So, once again, I find myself concluding that some folks are looking a gift horse in the mouth. 

Peter

Peter, I appreciate your view that we should be grateful to the Forum.  I certainly agree, and if you view some of my other posts you could see evidence of that.

However, this has never been a discussion of the merits of eBay vs. the Buy/Sell Forum.  When David introduced the topic I doubt he ever meant it to get diverted to an eBay comparison.  I'm sure most of us would prefer selling on here.   We all like "Free" vs. "fee-based."  That's a given.  But within the context of appreciating the Forum, we can still offer thoughts on how to make it work better.  I just can't see how having a new Premier car for 50 cents sitting on the "new" Buy/Sell Forum for several days -- with NO interest -- can tell you anything other than fewer people are actually using or paying attention to today's Buy/Sell Forum.  Many people have made the observation that there is less activity on here than there used to be.   I love the Buy/Sell Forum in whatever iteration Rich and the guys choose to present it, and will continue to patronize it regardless of what is or isn't modified.

I like eBay.  I use eBay.  I've bought and sold on eBaby.  This is not about eBay.  

Many people have made the observation that there is less activity on here than there used to be.  

Could be due to the rules change. But it could also have something to do with the economy. Or perhaps more and more people have decided they have enough trains. IMHO, there seems to be an uptick in the number of people posting about deciding they have enough trains, or needing to do some thinning because they have too many.

 I love the Buy/Sell Forum in whatever iteration Rich and the guys choose to present it, and will continue to patronize it regardless of what is or isn't modified.

Me too.

Old way.  I appreciate member comments and questions in regard to an item for sale/trade. Many times the knowledge shared here may help a potential buyer with enough info to make a decision to purchase.  RICH

I don't recall receiving many responses for things I listed for sale. Doesn't matter to me one way or another. Items I purchased most all communication in regard to the item was via email anyway. 

mike.caruso posted:

PJB posted:

mike.caruso posted:

... The fact that a Legacy engine for a hundred bucks on page three draws no response seems to indicate that not a ton of people are willing to scroll through pages and pages of For Sale threads. ...

 

Mike, and anyone else that's experienced a similar situation, let's compare to level-set what we're discussing.  

• OGR forum: a free venue in which to offer stuff for sale.  No listing or final sale fee.  If an item falls off page 1, possibly less visibility and reduced opportunity to sell.  Opportunity for people to "game" the system, bumping their item up in exposure.  

• Fleabay and similar: listing fee. An item is on page 1 from the get-go only if: (a) the potential buyer uses the right search terms; and (b) the volume of items responding to similar search terms isn't so great as to push your item down.  If your item sells, you pay a final sales fee.  If it doesn't sell, you still eat the listing fee.  Your sale price is partially depndent (in some cases) on your feedback quantity and quality.  If you relist, there's substantial data that has shown fewer people are interested in a re-listed item and/or will make low-ball offers. 

I and many friends have been buying/selling in many auction venues since the 1990s and, as such, methinks folks here don't understand the benefit they are getting in this site's "for sale" forum.  You have an audience that's purely of the same mindset (O gauge folks) and an opportunity that is at least equal to any paid site in terms of showcasing your item. And it is offered here for free.  There is no perfect system, but there are certainly other options for anyone who doesn't see the benefits of what is offered here.  So, once again, I find myself concluding that some folks are looking a gift horse in the mouth. 

Peter

Peter, I appreciate your view that we should be grateful to the Forum.  I certainly agree, and if you view some of my other posts you could see evidence of that.

However, this has never been a discussion of the merits of eBay vs. the Buy/Sell Forum.  When David introduced the topic I doubt he ever meant it to get diverted to an eBay comparison.  I'm sure most of us would prefer selling on here.   We all like "Free" vs. "fee-based."  That's a given.  But within the context of appreciating the Forum, we can still offer thoughts on how to make it work better.  I just can't see how having a new Premier car for 50 cents sitting on the "new" Buy/Sell Forum for several days -- with NO interest -- can tell you anything other than fewer people are actually using or paying attention to today's Buy/Sell Forum.  Many people have made the observation that there is less activity on here than there used to be.   I love the Buy/Sell Forum in whatever iteration Rich and the guys choose to present it, and will continue to patronize it regardless of what is or isn't modified.

I like eBay.  I use eBay.  I've bought and sold on eBaby.  This is not about eBay.  

Mike,

I agree with everything you said.

To be clear, however, my point wasn't to compare this site to EBay. It was to compare the fundamentals of this site to very many other selling avenues.  Basically, none guarantee any greater visibility for your sale item, yet most charge you a fee.  My comment was really in response to what seemed like some folks (not you) complaining that this site doesn't offer a selling panacea.  In terms of improving this site, I'm all for it. There are many things that could be better. 

Peter

I like the opportunity to sell my exces things within my own community to people I know and respect. It is nice to have this venue to sell and Ive gotten some ggod deals and it is nice to be able to pass those good deals on to others. The forum has been a tremendous resorce for me and many others to find solutions to some very challenging problems and some not so challenging ones. I have noticed that the price gouging has gone up recently since there are no comments allowed. Come on now, we are all friends here

I am fine with either decision. I would recommend a fine tuning of the rules if the Forum changes the board to include replies. What would differentiate a "bump" from a legitimate attempt to update a thread? What would constitute an "update" and how frequently would "updates" be allowed? What would happen if questions were posed on the thread and the seller replied? Would that be a bump?

It seems to me the Webmaster would need a full time "Bumpmeister" to adjudicate these things.

Eliot

Rich,

Seems you're counting up votes for / against going back to the old format. My post in which I voted vanished.  Not surprisingly, this was likely a function of my opinion (as to why much additional mod time wouldn't be required in returning to the old format) not aligning with the opinion of the site gods. So, for the record, my vote is to return to the old format. Thanks. 

PJB posted:

Rich,

not aligning with the opinion of the site gods.

I think they prefer the term "Elders".

Leave it as it is now - the endless replies and foolishness that went on previously that resulted in the change to the present format is exemplified in that there are now 3 pages of this thread...

Has the current format resulted in less activity - does that mean less items listed or less foolishness being seen?  I doubt less of the former but thankfully less of the latter.

Gouging - so what.  Folks pricing stuff foolishly will not sell their stuff. 

Anyway, my hobby is not about buying and selling at a bickering on-line flea market - it's about model RR'ing. 

 

 In terms of improving this site, I'm all for it. There are many things that could be better. 

Peter

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