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Are my trains drawing too much current for a 275 watt ZW?  Here's what I am running :

1.  MTH PS1 Hudson with 4 MTH lighted passenger cars.

2.  Lionel Silver Spike passenger set - both diesels lighted as well as 3 lighted passenger cars.

3.  AF passenger train (1992), both diesels lighted and 4 lighted passenger cars.

The circuit breaker automatically resets after about 2 minutes, I guess when it cools down.

Do I need to put in a higher amp circuit breaker perhaps?

Any suggestions appreciated. 

Last edited by Drummer3
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Only you can tell. Take a meter and measure the total current in Amps. Multiply by the voltage (use 15 Volts as an example)  The answer is the power being consumed in Watts.  A ZW will supply around 200 Watts on a good day in a cool room.  This is the simple method to get a rough idea of the power being consumed.  

If you don't have an ammeter that will measure up to and beyond 10 Amps, measure each train by itself and add them up.

If you divide 200 by 20 (Watts by Volts) you get 10 Amps. I don't know what the rating of the circuit breaker is, so you need to look it up or ask someone who might know.  If your total power exceeds 200 Watts, I would imagine that the cb is doing its job. I would not suggest using a cb that is rated for higher current.

 

Last edited by Arthur P. Bloom

Dave,

Perform the math Arthur has prescribed above. If you are over 10A or so, you need more power (Why not another ZW - just put it in phase with your current one). If you are under 10A, your circuit breaker may be worn out. They are easy to replace. Depending upon your ZW, you can use one of the three:

Z22: Image result for lionel Z 22

ZW-232:Image result for lionel zw-232

Modern Automotive Bussmann 19115 assembly: 

Last edited by bmoran4

I would suspect poor track conductivity:  either between sectional track connections or electrical connections to the track, or both.  Or poor maintenance of locomotives; i.e. dirty wheels, track, rollers. etc.

Something other than the engines and passenger car lighting is sucking up amperage.

Last edited by Pingman
Drummer3 posted:

Are my trains drawing too much current for a 275 watt ZW?  Here's what I am running :

1.  MTH PS1 Hudson with 4 MTH lighted passenger cars.

2.  Lionel Silver Spike passenger set - both diesels lighted as well as 3 lighted passenger cars.

3.  AF passenger train (1992), both diesels lighted and 4 lighted passenger cars.

The circuit breaker automatically resets after about 2 minutes, I guess when it cools down.

Do I need to put in a higher amp circuit breaker perhaps?

Any suggestions appreciated. 

First question: yes

Second question: only if you want to fry your electronics/start a fire on your layout....

During the 1990s I was still using 3 pw ZWs [each on separate tracks] all of which at one time or another when loaded at 8-9 amps on my high shelf railroad, tripped out after about 20 minutes of continuous running. Based on my AC Ammeters,wired indivually on each power district[track], when converted to watts, it indicated 180-190 watts  was about maximum load for my well maintained ZWs when running continuously. Typically I ran two trains on the same track, usually one was a long lighted unit of 10-11 cars.

Eventually changed over to 180 watt PoHos , TMCC and changed to LEDs in lighted passenger cars--no further problem with tripping.  Just as info,180 PoHos [bricks]have the fastest reacting circuit breaker of any transformer I have ever used.

 

Last edited by Dewey Trogdon

Eleven lighted passenger cars and four engines?  They may not be over the 200 watts, but I'll bet they're getting close.

Another possibility is the old circuit breaker is failing or at least mis-adjusted.  The way to really test this is to do a load test on the bench.  What used to be a good load is old automotive headlight bulbs, they are in the 50-60 watt range.  That transformer should be able to light three of them indefinitely at 12-14 volts output.

This evening I measured the amperage on the 3 loops I am using.   They all read 1.7 - 1.9 amps, or just under 6 total when all 3 trains are running.  So, perhaps the 10 amp breaker  is faulty.   What does 6 amps convert to in watts on this transformer?  Also, is it truly 275 watt output as stamped on the transformer?

 Another idea is to do away with the internal breaker and install external breakers, that is,  give each output post (A B C and D) its own external breaker, perhaps a 5 amp on each??

 

Well, the 275 watts in input power, that's how PW transformers were rated.  For continuous output power, figure on around 75% of that, and that's at full throttle.

If you're only drawing six amps and the breaker is tripping, time to replace the breaker.  Many folks use an automotive cartridge type breaker as a replacement, if you use a socket, you can even tinker with the rating of the breaker easily.

Dave, based on your readings, your internal breaker is worn out. You definitely should replace it with one of the ones I previously mentioned and not simply bypass it. You are free to add additional breakers to each individual output, and many would correctly state that would be best practice to do so (to protect against cross output currents), along with TVS diodes (such as 1.5KE36CA). Additionally, the 275 Watt rating is house current power consumption. Best to assume about 75% efficiency, hence the 200W output Arthur mentioned.

Last edited by bmoran4

 Another idea is to do away with the internal breaker and install external breakers, that is,  give each output post (A B C and D) its own external breaker, perhaps a 5 amp on each??.

For safety's sake, the internal circuit breaker should remain, and be working properly. Down the road, that transformer will fall into someone else's hands, who will not know that the breaker has been removed. It could even be a family member. That written:

David Johnson wrote:

The Lionel test specs for the ZW transformer is that it should put out 30 amps for 11 to 40 seconds before the breaker trips.  It sounds like you are no where near this.  So the breaker is probably worn out.  There are lots of replacement options. 

That is a lot of power for a long time.
The internal ZW circuit breaker is there to protect the transformer, not your trains or layout wiring. Plus, it is fairly easy to accidentally create a circuit that is not protected by the internal breaker. I always put an individual breaker on each "Hot" output, terminals "A" through "D". I like to use Lionel postwar #91 adjustable electromagnetic, manual reset circuit breakers. There are many choices.
If any of your trains have circuit boards, a TVS on each output is a good idea too.

 

 

 

Last edited by C W Burfle

IMG_8608_edited-1I'd say, the ZW's are doing what they are supposed to do - protecting.

The "trippers" are the passenger consists. Too many light bulbs, I concluded, during a personal experience running my layout.

In my limited personal experience in this regard, I have used these 5 ZW's (10 trains altogether; 2 per ZW, using only the two large handles on each for trains,) since inception of the layout in 1995. The only time the ZW's have given me any grief was when I tried to run (TMCC) TWO (8-10car) passenger trains on the same track. The ZW responsible for the initial trip-out went out after, approx. 3 minutes.

Then, I changed both trains over to a different ZW; same result - tripped-out.

It wasn't the two steam engines on the same track and ZW arm that were pulling those passenger consists that seemed to be the critical factor, because as soon as I changed one train over to freight, no problem with tripping.

My conclusion? Though the lighted windows seem innocent enough, they apparently add up to quite a drain. Thus, they trained me  and I modified my behavior to not run two passenger trains on the same ZW handle.

FrankM, Moon Township

P.S. For more particulars, I refer you to my betters, above, like CW Burfle. Those guys know lots of stuff. I just want the trains to move and look good doing it,; beyond that, my usual reaction is "Huh?'", and I call over to the house a specialist (he's the guy who designed and installed that ZW cache, as well as wired the entire layout, with connections every 4-6 ft. along all the ten independent loops.

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Last edited by Moonson
bmoran4 posted:

Dave, for what it is worth, the ZW breaker is actually 15 amps.

Yes, but considering that's more than the ZW can actually usefully deliver, 10 or maybe 12 is a more realistic value.  The old PW breakers were just there to keep the transformer from frying, and they didn't even do that all the time.   A 10A thermal circuit breaker will tolerate a 20% overload for quite a long time, so a 15A breaker is way more than necessary for the ZW, at least IMO.

 Moonson posted:

My conclusion? Though the lighted windows seem innocent enough, they apparently add up to quite a drain. Thus, they trained me  and I modified my behavior to not run two passenger trains on the same ZW handle.

You need LED lighting, then the passenger cars will be light freight cars, no power issues.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

I understand that LED lighting needs very little power,  but still, my 3 fully lighted passenger trains only draw 1.7 amps each.   Does anyone know how many watts that is?

  I am guessing about 40 watts per train ??

So, 3 trains x 40 watts each = 120 watts, which is way under 200 watts that the ZW can supply.

 

 

W=V*A

14V at 2Amps is about 30 Watts, or ~90 Watts total.

18V at 2Amps is 36 Watts, close to your 40 estimate.

Your internal circuit breaker seems to be worn out and needs to be replaced with one of the ones I mentioned way above at the beginning of this thread. As stated earlier, TVS diodes are a good addition, along with smaller breakers for each throttle.

 

I know the post war ZW has a 15 amp circuit breaker installed inside on the common side. Sounds like your ZW's breaker might be getting worn out but I doubt it, plus all the trains and lighted cars you are using put a large load on it.

Another option is to buy another ZW and use it for one of your three passenger trains. 3 or 4 engines powered plus at least 11 lighted passenger cars is a very large load for any post war ZW. Like gunrunnerjohn mentions a post war ZW may put out close to 220 usable watts to the track even though the power rating is 275 watts(used from the wall outlet).

What I have done is to install 7 amp 120 volt AC fast acting circuit breakers on each output terminal(A, B, C & D) between the transformer and the track. I bought these breakers at www.mouserelectronics.com  Personally I don't recommend using circuit breakers from automotive use as they are for use with DC(direct current) and you are using AC(alternating current). I studied electrical work for 3 years at a vo. tech. school near Reading PA, plus I studied automotive work at a vo. tech school in south Miami FL.

Lee Fritz

Last edited by phillyreading

What wattage is a common incan lionel bulb in a passenger car?   Ive read 1.87, 2.80, and 4.80 watts.  I run a 6 car passenger train.  5 cars have 2 bulbs and 1(baggage) has one.  1986 Wabash 4-6-2.  And two DT&I diesel switchers that sound like grinders running (well used) double headed pulling 14 freight cars and a lit caboose.  With a single CW-80.  Sometimes for hours at a time.   12x6 layout with two outer mainlines right up to the edge.  On track that only has one power input on each loop.   Not yet bus wired.   Are the CW-80s that great or are the ZWs not that great?  

 

Edit.   I am currently adding another CW-80, not for more power but so I can control the two loops  independently.

 

Last edited by carsntrains

It should!   The new ZW cost well over 700.00...  Lists for 899.99 now.  You can buy 8 or 10 CW-80s for that.  I'm asking a serious question while considering moving up to a new ZW..  I like all the protections for electronics in the new transformers.   Don't want to go the brick route because I like to run conventional engines also. 

carsntrains posted:

It should!   The new ZW cost well over 700.00...  Lists for 899.99 now.  You can buy 8 or 10 CW-80s for that.  I'm asking a serious question while considering moving up to a new ZW..  I like all the protections for electronics in the new transformers.   Don't want to go the brick route because I like to run conventional engines also. 

We are talking about the only real original ZW in this thread which was under $30.00 new. The ZW-C, ZW-L are remotely related in styling only and completely different animals in terms of inner workings and components.

I run four trains on four loops on my layout but use two post war ZW transformers for power. Also use a 90 w transformer for lighting.  Never had a breaker blow except for a dead short.  If you wish to know if you keeping within the transformers specs measure the current  (in amps) that each train draws, then multiply that number by the running voltage (volts).  That gives you the wattage draw.,  If its 12 volts and 4 amps that's 48 watts and three trains = 144 watts. While a ZW is rated at 275 watts thats the transformer input draw wattage and not the wattage that it puts out. I would estimate that a ZW can deliver about 150 Watts on the output and at 12V on three transformer legs you are probably a bit over what that transformer can handle.

This has gotten WAY over complicated.

The attachment is the official Lionel position on transformer current capacities. Those values do not change with the setting of the throttle.

Circuit breakers respond to current flow in amperes. They don't know anything about watts. The rated wattage is the maximum drawn at full voltage and full current.

So, according to Lionel, a ZW will deliver 12 amps for at least 4 hours without tripping its breaker. It doesn't matter if it is 12 amps at 20 volts or 12 amps at 6 volts.

 

Lionel XFMR

 

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Drummer3 posted:

Hey Phillyreading,  thanks for the info.  Found this in my research of AC vs DC breakers:

Sorry, while this is technically true for reasons that don't really apply to your situation, it's mostly bullcrap.  The grain of truth in this clip is that a DC breaker will typically be rated lower than it's AC rating for the reason they stated, AC across the contacts is self-quenching at the zero crossing.  However, for thermal breakers, there's zero reason not to use an automotive DC breaker in your transformer.  Current is current as far as the thermal breaker is concerned, and 10 amps of RMS AC is the same as 10 amps of DC in terms of trip time.

That breaker does not have any mounting or connecting hardware - you will need an additional socket like the BP/HHU pictured below. It has a mounting hole in the cap that may mount in the same place as the ZW-232. I would also stick to the stock 15 AMP rating for the breaker, but being a socket setup, you could easily swap out if you find it necessary. At these relatively toy voltages and currents, the 14V rating may slightly de-rate the breakers amperage rating at higher voltages, about 7.7 amps at 18V, but would be perfectly acceptable.

Image result for BP/HHU

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Last edited by bmoran4

So Lionel says a ZW of any type can run 4 trains with no problems.   What baffles me is if they can.  Why are many here only running two trains per ZW??     How is that running circles around a CW-80 that I know will run 3 trains on one transformer for as long as you want them to run?   If it takes 2 ZWs to run 4 trains, or 5 ZWs  to run 10 trains, what advantage does it have over 4 or 5 CW80s running ONE train each? Or even 4 or 5 CW40s running 4 or 5 trains?   In 1954, 1923, or 2017 it just aint making sense to me??   Or that Z4000 or whatever it is.  Its description says it will only run two trains.   But I do understand the ZW and the other transformer do look cool.  I think any modern transformer is fine ..  and safe..  If you have good track wiring and keep your rails and equipment clean.   

carsntrains posted:

So Lionel says a ZW of any type can run 4 trains with no problems.   What baffles me is if they can.  Why are many here only running two trains per ZW?? 

Those using ZWs are likely to be running in conventional mode with high current pullmor motors and incandescent lamps. A single train with dual motors and a long string of passenger cars full of lamps could easily pull almost triple digit watts. Additionally, while the ZW has 4 throttles, only 2 have whistle and direction controls, and thus the other two "throttles" are relegated to power some accessories.

How is that running circles around a CW-80 that I know will run 3 trains on one transformer for as long as you want them to run?   If it takes 2 ZWs to run 4 trains, or 5 ZWs  to run 10 trains, what advantage does it have over 4 or 5 CW80s running ONE train each? Or even 4 or 5 CW40s running 4 or 5 trains?   In 1954, 1923, or 2017 it just aint making sense to me??   Or that Z4000 or whatever it is.

Remember, transformers are rated on watts, not "how many trains" they run. A ZW is rated at 275 watts, the CW-80 only 80 watts. A CW-80 may be hard pressed to run that elegant dual pullmor motor loco with that long string of passenger cars. With modern can motors, command systems, and low power lighting, you could get away with using only one throttle set to 18V and have capacity to run 8 or more trains from a ZW.

 Its description says it will only run two trains.   But I do understand the ZW and the other transformer do look cool.  I think any modern transformer is fine ..  and safe..  If you have good track wiring and keep your rails and equipment clean.

You are entitled to power and maintain your empire how you will. Any properly serviced transformer of any age is safe.

 

bmoran4 posted:
carsntrains posted:

So Lionel says a ZW of any type can run 4 trains with no problems.   What baffles me is if they can.  Why are many here only running two trains per ZW?? 

Those using ZWs are likely to be running in conventional mode with high current pullmor motors and incandescent lamps. A single train with dual motors and a long string of passenger cars full of lamps could easily pull almost triple digit watts. Additionally, while the ZW has 4 throttles, only 2 have whistle and direction controls, and thus the other two "throttles" are relegated to power some accessories.

How is that running circles around a CW-80 that I know will run 3 trains on one transformer for as long as you want them to run?   If it takes 2 ZWs to run 4 trains, or 5 ZWs  to run 10 trains, what advantage does it have over 4 or 5 CW80s running ONE train each? Or even 4 or 5 CW40s running 4 or 5 trains?   In 1954, 1923, or 2017 it just aint making sense to me??   Or that Z4000 or whatever it is.

Remember, transformers are rated on watts, not "how many trains" they run. A ZW is rated at 275 watts, the CW-80 only 80 watts. A CW-80 may be hard pressed to run that elegant dual pullmor motor loco with that long string of passenger cars. With modern can motors, command systems, and low power lighting, you could get away with using only one throttle set to 18V and have capacity to run 8 or more trains from a ZW.

 Its description says it will only run two trains.   But I do understand the ZW and the other transformer do look cool.  I think any modern transformer is fine ..  and safe..  If you have good track wiring and keep your rails and equipment clean.

You are entitled to power and maintain your empire how you will. Any properly serviced transformer of any age is safe.

 

Well my own experience tells me a CW-80 will power a long string of incandescent lit passenger cars, and 2 other engines double heading 14 freight cars and a incandescent lit caboose.   For hours and hours.    I like the ZW and to CW. ..   Just trying to figure out the best route to take.   

Last edited by carsntrains
carsntrains posted:
bmoran4 posted:
carsntrains posted:

So Lionel says a ZW of any type can run 4 trains with no problems.   What baffles me is if they can.  Why are many here only running two trains per ZW?? 

Those using ZWs are likely to be running in conventional mode with high current pullmor motors and incandescent lamps. A single train with dual motors and a long string of passenger cars full of lamps could easily pull almost triple digit watts. Additionally, while the ZW has 4 throttles, only 2 have whistle and direction controls, and thus the other two "throttles" are relegated to power some accessories.

How is that running circles around a CW-80 that I know will run 3 trains on one transformer for as long as you want them to run?   If it takes 2 ZWs to run 4 trains, or 5 ZWs  to run 10 trains, what advantage does it have over 4 or 5 CW80s running ONE train each? Or even 4 or 5 CW40s running 4 or 5 trains?   In 1954, 1923, or 2017 it just aint making sense to me??   Or that Z4000 or whatever it is.

Remember, transformers are rated on watts, not "how many trains" they run. A ZW is rated at 275 watts, the CW-80 only 80 watts. A CW-80 may be hard pressed to run that elegant dual pullmor motor loco with that long string of passenger cars. With modern can motors, command systems, and low power lighting, you could get away with using only one throttle set to 18V and have capacity to run 8 or more trains from a ZW.

 Its description says it will only run two trains.   But I do understand the ZW and the other transformer do look cool.  I think any modern transformer is fine ..  and safe..  If you have good track wiring and keep your rails and equipment clean.

You are entitled to power and maintain your empire how you will. Any properly serviced transformer of any age is safe.

 

Well my own experience tells me a CW-80 will power a long string of incandescent lit passenger cars, and 2 other engines double heading 14 freight cars and a incandescent lit caboose.   For hours and hours.    I like the ZW and to CW. ..   Just trying to figure out the best route to take.   

Bottom line, the ZW is equivalent to about 3 1/2 CW-80 transformers in terms of power output. If you find the CW-80 adequate, there is no issue.

It sounds to me like the original breaker is shot. If you replace the internal breaker I would do it with a modern fast trip breaker designed to trip in milliseconds, not minutes, to protect the engines on the track, and also add a tvs across the track power circuit to stop surge. If not, I would recommend an external breaker, I believe Lionel makes one that is fast tripping, along with a TVS, I have seen adds for various devices like this that may include both breaker and surge suppression. The old post war motors didn't care, I can tell you that from experience, barring a major short in the engine itself causing the armature windings to melt their insulation, having had plenty of shorts that tripped my transformer as a kid, never fried anything, with modern engines with can motors and control boards, not going to be true. 

Once again in this thread, more pertinent information on-topic has been posted immediately above. So many of you gentlemen-hobbyists know so much information that threads such as these become invaluable reference resources for later use.

You help fellow hobbyists make decisions concerning a variety of matters, including how to expend their resources of money, time, and effort, not to mention their desire to have some fun and play around after a day or a lifetime of work.

Good job! Indeed!

FrankM

Last edited by Moonson
C W Burfle posted:

I use the outer handles to run trains ("A" and "D").
I use one inner handle to power switch tracks and the other inner handle to power uncoupling tracks.
That way I can tune the voltage differently for them.

Good thinking!   The CW-80 has an adjustable output on the accessory lugs.   Pretty cool feature really.   I hooded up a building the other night and it was too bright.  So poof just adjust the accessory output and it dimmed down a bit and looked fine. The downside to the CW-80s adjustment is you have to adjust it every time you unplug the transformer.

carsntrains posted:

The downside to the CW-80s adjustment is you have to adjust it every time you unplug the transformer.

That's incorrect, the accessory voltage should be retained until you change it.  It comes from the factory at 12V, and stays that way until you change it.

Just to make sure, I set mine to 6V and powered off the CW-80 for around 5 minutes.  When I turned it back on, the accessory output was still 6 volts.

An inexpensive line-side power meter (about $10 on eBay - free shippinb from Asia) can give some insight into what's going IN to the transformer.  These widgets have been discussed in other threads but the price has come down since they first became available.  Here one measuring a Z-4000 at idle (no load) showing 13 Watts going in from the wall.  Cranked up one handle to 16V AC with 4.4 Amp load (70 Watts) and now 101 Watts going in.  LCD a bit difficult to photograph.

input side wattmeter

Still requires some "do the math" to adjust for transformer efficiency and such, but another way to see what's going on.

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Drummer3 posted:

Here's a related question about connecting TVS diodes when running the newer electronic engines . . . .   if these are so inexpensive and tiny in size, why don't the manufacturers (like MTH, Lionel, etc,) just go ahead and put these in their engines?

Ask your friendly neighborhood beancounter, even though a TVS would be trivial in cost (even at our level of price, at Lionel's, probably pennies), and isn't exactly hard to wire into the circuit (would go across the power leads), it is an 'extra cost' to them. Not to mention if a power surge blows out the unit, you then would be paying for new circuit boards at the very least. Beancounter will tell you every penny matters, and like with most things they do, it often means the consumer suffers. GM had a steering column to steering box joint that engineers specified 5 bolts, the beancounters made them cut it back to 3 (I think it was the late 60's Chevelle), and that is routine. 

Drummer3 posted:

Sounds like I will try the 10-amp automotive type breaker, and add an external TVS on each post.  Thanks for all the tips!

All the current drawn from posts A, B, C, & D first passes through the ZW's circuit breaker.  If it's worn and out of spec adding an external breaker to each post is not going to prevent the main breaker from tripping.  Bottom line is that it needs to be replaced.  You still need to add a breaker & a TVS to each output to protect against voltage spikes and current surges from those outputs.

wild mary posted:

All the current drawn from posts A, B, C, & D first passes through the ZW's circuit breaker...

You would think so, right? But, that's not what really happens.

The single breaker in a ZW  is on the one wire feeding the "U" bus, to which all 4 "U" terminals are sweged to.

This is why it's so very important to avoid connecting the outputs of a ZW to each other when at all possible. Two handles set at different voltages have the potential to cause a 20+ amp fault current between them, with absolutely no overload protection.

Last edited by ADCX Rob

What he said.  I saw my first one that happened to recently, it ate one of the rollers practically in two!  Obviously, a lot of current flowing!

If that was the only damage, the owner was lucky.
This is the reason I suggest breakers on all four output terminals.
I even use them on the outputs that are dedicated to the switch machines and uncoupling tracks.

I don't have a photo of it, I gave it away to a forum member, but here is what I did to add protection to a Z. Should work fine on a ZW but I haven't actually done it.

I took a piece of Plexiglas and drilled eight holes to match the terminal pattern on the back of the Z. I drilled two extra holes on each end, for a total of twelve holes. I then put the T159/T160 replacement binding posts in the extra holes and slid the whole thing over the Z terminals. You will need a couple washers behind the Plexiglas. Connected PTC resettable fuses from A, B, C and D on the transformer to the four new binding posts. I put the PTC lead between the new binding post base and the Plexiglass so loosening the thumbscrew doesn't loosen the PTC wire. You will need to put sleeving over some of the PTC leads as insulation. 

Now you have added circuit protection to all circuits of the ZW without modifying the ZW or doing much rewiring of the layout or wondering about where/how to mount circuit breakers.

I mounted the extra terminals on the sides of the Plexiglas to prevent interference with the power cord on the Z. On the ZW you could probably put them above the ABCD terminals which would simplify the wire routing.

I used 7 amp holding current PTCs. Suit yourself.

 

Thanks ADCX Rob, GRJ is reading my mind in posting the paths in green.   so it appears, the issue can occur, if not careful on wiring to accessories etc and you have two hot lines at different voltages connected

Or one might connect the "A" and "D" terminals to two different blocks on the same loop, and forget an insulating pin, or leave something stopped with it's pickup rollers bridging the two blocks.

For now, I temporarily added an external 10 amp breaker, manual reset.  I first tried a 15 amp, but it did not trip fast enough when doing 'shorting' tests.  In fact, smoke came from the where the roller rides against the coil before the 15 amp breaker tripped. So for me, the 10 amp was the ticket.   Now, I need to find a 10 amp automatic reset breaker to put into the case permanently.

 Also, I connected TVS's on the A and D posts, but they kept tripping the breaker as soon as I cracked the throttle.   So, not sure if I have the right TVS.  Specs are below.   Any ideas?

 

 

 

 

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Drummer3 posted:

For now, I temporarily added an external 10 amp breaker, manual reset.  I first tried a 15 amp, but it did not trip fast enough when doing 'shorting' tests.  In fact, smoke came from the where the roller rides against the coil before the 15 amp breaker tripped. So for me, the 10 amp was the ticket.   Now, I need to find a 10 amp automatic reset breaker to put into the case permanently.

 Also, I connected TVS's on the A and D posts, but they kept tripping the breaker as soon as I cracked the throttle.   So, not sure if I have the right TVS.  Specs are below.   Any ideas?

 

 

 

 

I use 32 volt bi-directional TVS units from www.mouserelectronics.com  Not sure if you have correct rating TVS units or not. Also using 7 amp breakers on each output(A, B, C, & D) from my ZW. 

FYI: the internal circuit breaker on the post war ZW is rated at 15 amps and is on the common side.

Lee Fritz

I use the 1.5KE36CA TVS diodes. Additionally, the smoke may indicate a loose contact in the arm and account for increased current draw under higher loads. 15 amp is the correct size breaker for the internal breaker, and is meant to protect the transformer, not the items it powers. Smaller breakers on each output is definitely the way to go in addition to the properly servicing the internals of the ZW.

Dave,

Internally, use one of the specifically designed replacements for the ZW:

Z22: Image result for lionel Z 22

ZW-232:Image result for lionel zw-232

Modern Automotive Bussmann 19115 assembly: 

 

 

Externally, I have known people to use PTCs (like the one you mentioned) attached to a terminal block for each individual output, but they take time to trip. You are much better off with a fast acting circuit breaker, many which have been discussed on the forum.

Drummer Dave, I question those ammeter readings you post above.  They sound way too low for old postwar equipment, especially with incandescent lighted passenger cars.  Are you sure you're using a good quality AC ammeter?  Running 2 freights and a string of LED-lit cars, about modern 6 motors running, I pull about 8 amps from my Z4000.

Drummer3 posted:

Hi GRJ,

Advance Auto, my local auto parts store has this automatic reset breaker, but is 14-volts.  Would this be OK for a ZW?   Or do I need to look for a higher voltage rating?

If suitable, I will pick it  up tomorrow, and not have to mail order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been running with these 10 AMP  for years with no issue.  They work well. Also note the TVSs

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Here's my $20 meter from WalMart, what I call the poor man's Fluke meter.  My son has a $169 Fluke I can borrow the next time he visits.

I will be able to compare amp readings then.

One of my passenger trains is a PS1  MTH hudson, which draws way less amps than a PW lionel engine.

The other is a 1992 AF MoPac set, (Missouri-Pacific) which also would draw less amps than a PW set.

 

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