I really do appreciate Dennis' willingness to take the time to write a detailed response to this thread and to share his knowledge. I've copied his post and saved it in my library of Lionel information, as I have done with a lot of the information he has shared on the web.
Train_Geek posted:I have two of the high seal motors, one has a red brush plate and the other a green/brown mottled brush plate. The high stack engine with the red brush plate is in my 671R for the electronic set from 1947. It barely fits in the engine and requires electrical tape on top to keep from shorting out. The end of the armature is geared for the 671 engine from 1947. The green/brown mottled brush plate high stack has the gear from 1946 to fit in the 726 or I guess a 2020 or 671. I bought it off e-bay a few years ago loose because I liked the brush plate on it. I think they may have used red or the green mottled brush plates to help differentiate the high stack motors from the typical black brush plate atomic motors.
I read somewhere that the high stack motors were aftermarket products for the 726 for use on display layouts to keep it from overheating during long periods of use.
Andy
Interesting. I was looking at a 671 at the Greenberg show the other day and it had the tape on the underside of the cab roof as you explained. I would have purchased it but on the test track it did nothing except light up the headlight. Not even a buzz, no matter which position I moved the E-unit lever.
FWIW, I have a postwar 726 That has an atomic motor with a red brush plate, and the brush holders are not equipped with screwdriver slots. I assume that is because it is a 47 or 48 model, and I had never given this any thought. It has the short lugs for wiring connection. This engine was bought from the original owner back in the nineties, he had it for a couple years, then sold it to me, I have had it since. Thanks for reading.
Hi Charlie,
The combination of the female jacks and the removable brush holders are not unique to the 671 in the electronic set even though that is where it is most often found. The jacks first appeared with the 1946 versions of the 671, 726 and 2020 with horizontal E-Units so that the E-Unit could be locked out. They were still in use when the 773 was produced. The removable brush holders appeared in the fall of 1946 and all of the pieces that make up that brush plate have 2020 part numbers. Were those components unique to the 671RM brush plate, the parts would have the 671RM as part of the part number. Lionel phased out the removable brush holders in 1947 except for whatever was used in the electronic set. You can still find some 671, 726 and 2020 locomotives with them though. Just to reinforce what I mentioned earlier, these were toys first. It is highly unlikely that Lionel would make thousands of brush plates and then scrap them if they were good. As it was, Lionel created hundreds of pounds of scrapped parts every year as the result of seasonal and part time labor.
Dennis
CharlieS posted:I really do appreciate Dennis' willingness to take the time to write a detailed response to this thread and to share his knowledge. I've copied his post and saved it in my library of Lionel information, as I have done with a lot of the information he has shared on the web.
I wouldn't stick the metaphorical fork in this one just yet, Charlie.
When I last posted on the topic back on October 25th, I had just begun researching the larger stack motors, and hadn't been able to get much further than the 773-100 Large Stack and -200 Short Stack motors for the 773.
Research has continued over the past three months as time allows, and now the story of the 1946 Large Stack motors is coming into focus. I estimate I'm only about 50% complete on the quest (there's still many people to be contacted) but I'm hoping to be able to post something coherent on the subject sometime in the not-too-distant future.
I realize that Dennis Waldron has contradicted the information I posted (I stand by it), and my latest digging contradicts much of the additional information that he's posted. But I'm hoping that both of our involvement will help get the correct information out, and that we'll be able to craft the comprehensive story (at least as comprehensive as someone is able to construct about 70 years later) of an interesting niche product in Lionel's history.
So to get back to your original inquiries:
1) Gold Seal (High Stack) Motor -- the larger stack motors are definitely documented as originating from Lionel. But I have not been able to verify the existence of this "Gold Seal" program to date.
2) Your unknown Large Stack armature -- it's definitely NOT a 2020M-10.
TRW
TRW:
"2) Your unknown Large Stack armature -- it's definitely NOT a 2020M-10."
Okay, then what do you say it is?
Dennis
DennisWaldron posted:TRW:
"2) Your unknown Large Stack armature -- it's definitely NOT a 2020M-10."
Okay, then what do you say it is?
Dennis
I'm in the process of running down a loose end or two before I put the correct number on it. It conflicts with some other information out there, so I want to be sure I have my ducks in a row.
BUT I can confidently say it's not a 2020M-10 armature because there's no such thing. Lionel used the 2020M-10 number for the armature lamination blank, used in quite a few different locomotive motors.
TRW
That would be interesting
CharlieS posted:Dennis: Thanks for the lengthy comment. Great stuff. But I have a question about:
Charlie, the red brush plate that you note as being a 671RM-2 brush plate is not unique in that it was only used on the motor of the 671 Turbine in the electronic set. It first saw use in the 2020 Turbine, and those longer solder lugs are part number 2020M-9. The short ones as you refer to them are the sale throughout Lionel’s production of this type brush plate with the removable brush holders.
It's my impression that the 671RM-2 brush plate differs from those other brush plates with removable brush holders and short solder lugs in that it (the 671RM-2) has mini banana jacks for the connection to the electronic control tender.
I think I have seen motors with removable brush tubes and short lugs, but they did not have the jacks unless they are on an electronic turbine.
While my research continues for the remaining pieces of info for the 1946 Large Stack motor, the brush plate information posted so far doesn't seem very clear to me, so I thought I'd take a stab at it. Lionel identified four different brush plate assemblies in use between 1946 and 1949, prior to switching over to the 622-series.
2020M-30: "Atomic" lettering, slotted (removable) brush holders, e-unit jacks with 2020M-36 plug, five solder lugs essentially of equal length at the top. Used throughout 1946 on 726, 671, 671R and 2020 production. Also scheduled for the 703. These should be on 1946 horizontal motors, but I suppose it's possible some could have been used up on early slanted motors in 1947. The Atomic brush plates could be black, mottled or red, with no known reason for the different colors other than material availability.
671RM-2: "Precision" lettering (although it appears some were the red "Atomic" versions, to use up existing inventory of the molded part), non-slotted (non-removable) brush holders, e-unit jacks with 2020M-36 plug, five solder lugs of unequal length with the two coming from the brush holders being shorter than the other three. This is basically a 2020M-30 with the two shorter lugs and non-removable brush holders. Used on the "Electronic" 671R when it was in production between 1947 and 1949.
671M-5: "Precision" lettering (although it appears some were the red "Atomic" versions, to use up existing inventory of the molded part), non-slotted (non-removable) brush solders, no e-unit jacks or plug, three solder lugs of unequal length, with the two coming from the brush holders being shorter than the one in the center. This is basically a 671RM-2 without the e-unit jacks, plug and associated solder lugs. Used on the 726, 671, 2020 and 2332 GG1 when they were in production between 1947 and 1949. Also, I think some of these used a shorter center lug, which essentially made the three lugs of equal length at the top.
364M-24: "Precision" lettering (the "Atomic" molded parts should have been used-up by now), non-slotted (non-removable) brush holders, no e-unit jacks or plug, two solder lugs of equal length -- the ones coming from the brush holders. This is basically a 671M-5 without the center field lug. Used on the 364 Log Loader and 397 Coal Loader when they were in production in 1948 and 1949.
Note that the black "Precision" brush plates underwent several subtle changes over the years, including:
1) The creation of a small pad (flat area) on the underside, directly above where the armature shaft would be. This was likely done to provide a bit more clearance with the armature.
2) A small hole created within the pad mentioned above. Purpose unknown -- any guesses? (Note that it's too small to hold the armature shaft.)
3) Chamfering of the two inside corner edges to allow for an easier fit around a wound field coil when assembling the blush plate to the motor.
4) The addition of cavity numbers to identify which part of the tool produced that particular brush plate.
In his response above, Dennis labels the longer brush holder solder lugs as 2020M-9, but that part number is actually the solder lug used to electrically ground one end of the field. It's typically found sandwiched between the field and die-cast motor housing on the 1946 motors, or riveted to the bottom of the motor with one of the field studs from 1947 onward.
Comments requested!
TRW
PaperTRW posted:DennisWaldron posted:TRW:
"2) Your unknown Large Stack armature -- it's definitely NOT a 2020M-10."
Okay, then what do you say it is?
Dennis
I'm in the process of running down a loose end or two before I put the correct number on it. It conflicts with some other information out there, so I want to be sure I have my ducks in a row.
BUT I can confidently say it's not a 2020M-10 armature because there's no such thing. Lionel used the 2020M-10 number for the armature lamination blank, used in quite a few different locomotive motors.
TRW
Your comment was enough for me to go digging through the packing boxes from our move into new offices and shop to find the hard copy of the CPI and the index card set from 1946-47 that I got from Lenny Dean. I have to concede, the 2020M-10 part number does belong to the armature lamination blank and the lamination insulator is 2020M-11. That is according to the CPI, but differs from the service departments indexing of the part.
PaperTRW posted:CharlieS posted:Dennis: Thanks for the lengthy comment. Great stuff. But I have a question about:
Charlie, the red brush plate that you note as being a 671RM-2 brush plate is not unique in that it was only used on the motor of the 671 Turbine in the electronic set. It first saw use in the 2020 Turbine, and those longer solder lugs are part number 2020M-9. The short ones as you refer to them are the sale throughout Lionel’s production of this type brush plate with the removable brush holders.
It's my impression that the 671RM-2 brush plate differs from those other brush plates with removable brush holders and short solder lugs in that it (the 671RM-2) has mini banana jacks for the connection to the electronic control tender.
I think I have seen motors with removable brush tubes and short lugs, but they did not have the jacks unless they are on an electronic turbine.
While my research continues for the remaining pieces of info for the 1946 Large Stack motor, the brush plate information posted so far doesn't seem very clear to me, so I thought I'd take a stab at it. Lionel identified four different brush plate assemblies in use between 1946 and 1949, prior to switching over to the 622-series.
2020M-30: "Atomic" lettering, slotted (removable) brush holders, e-unit jacks with 2020M-36 plug, five solder lugs essentially of equal length at the top. Used throughout 1946 on 726, 671, 671R and 2020 production. 1 Also scheduled for the 703. These should be on 1946 horizontal motors, but I suppose it's possible some could have been used up on early slanted motors in 1947. The Atomic brush plates could be black, mottled or red, with no known reason for the different colors other than material availability.
671RM-2: "Precision" lettering (although it appears some were the red "Atomic" versions, to use up existing inventory of the molded part), non-slotted (non-removable) brush holders, e-unit jacks with 2020M-36 plug, five solder lugs of unequal length with the two coming from the brush holders being shorter than the other three. This is basically a 2020M-30 with the two shorter lugs and non-removable brush holders. Used on the "Electronic" 671R when it was in production between 1947 and 1949.
671M-5: "Precision" lettering (although it appears some were the red "Atomic" versions, to use up existing inventory of the molded part), non-slotted (non-removable) brush solders, no e-unit jacks or plug, three solder lugs of unequal length, with the two coming from the brush holders being shorter than the one in the center. This is basically a 671RM-2 without the e-unit jacks, plug and associated solder lugs. Used on the 726, 671, 2020 and 2332 GG1 when they were in production between 1947 and 1949. Also, I think some of these used a shorter center lug, which essentially made the three lugs of equal length at the top.
364M-24: "Precision" lettering (the "Atomic" molded parts should have been used-up by now), non-slotted (non-removable) brush holders, no e-unit jacks or plug, two solder lugs of equal length -- the ones coming from the brush holders. This is basically a 671M-5 without the center field lug. Used on the 364 Log Loader and 397 Coal Loader when they were in production in 1948 and 1949.
Note that the black "Precision" brush plates underwent several subtle changes over the years, including:
1) The creation of a small pad (flat area) on the underside, directly above where the armature shaft would be. This was likely done to provide a bit more clearance with the armature.
2) A small hole created within the pad mentioned above. Purpose unknown -- any guesses? (Note that it's too small to hold the armature shaft.)
3) Chamfering of the two inside corner edges to allow for an easier fit around a wound field coil when assembling the blush plate to the motor.
4) The addition of cavity numbers to identify which part of the tool produced that particular brush plate.
In his response above, Dennis labels the longer brush holder solder lugs as 2020M-9, but that part number is actually the solder lug used to electrically ground one end of the field. It's typically found sandwiched between the field and die-cast motor housing on the 1946 motors, or riveted to the bottom of the motor with one of the field studs from 1947 onward.
Comments requested!
TRW
Nicely done Todd, but what is the resource for this information? I have never seen a drawing or anything in the CPI or anything else for that matter that reads "2020M-30: "Atomic" lettering, slotted (removable) brush holders, e-unit jacks with 2020M-36 plug, five solder lugs essentially of equal length at the top. Used throughout 1946 on 726, 671, 671R and 2020 production......."
Likewise you not subtle changes to the 2020M brush plate, but even the drawings I have of the brush plate don't have this listed in the legend.
As far as the 2020M-9 solder lug, I think the problem here is that Lionel used the same part number for 2 or 3 different lugs. I have a September 1959 service department shipping envelope with about 200 of the 2020M-9 lugs in it that are identical to those used on the 2020M-30 brush plate. However, I also have one sent to our service station in 1965 with 50, and they are curled 45-58 lugs as noted on the brush plates used on the 622 switcher.
I thought I would share a couple shots.
I have one early production 726 and one late 46 726. As you can see the high-stack on the early production has the same black brush plate as the later.
As stated above a larger motor is talked about in the service manuals. Saying it was in the early run of 46 and is discontinued.
On a side note there are two telltale differences other than the motor. The early chassis had no notch between the steam chest for easy access to the bulb chamber screw as well as it was never drilled and taped for the flapper shaft keeper . The info on the keeper is talked about in the heater type convertion instructions.
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PaperTRW, thanks for the interesting discussion on the early brush plates. After reading your interesting post I pulled out my brush plate box to see what I had. Everything was following what you had written until I got to the 364M-24. There I found a "Lionel Precision Motor" and a "Lionel Atomic Precision Motor" brush plates that appear to be identical except for the lettering. See photo below. Both Bakelite parts are of the early design with the notches in the bottom where the longer threaded buss bar attached for the threaded brush tube.
At first I was thinking that the "Atomic" brush plate and the lower buss bar supporting notches went together, but this is not the case. It was also interesting that the "Atomic" brush plate had a mold cavity number (2) and the the "Precision" brush plate did not. I do not think I would jump to the conclusion that the reason for the mix of styles in the various part numbers was a matter of using up old stock. Bakelite is slow to make. Durning periods of high production both the older and newer molds might have been used to keep up. Or when one mold had to go to the tool and die shop for repair, the other was used.
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