Postwar Quality

Generally they were of simpler and sturdier construction but Lionel made some turkeys too. Not all accessories were good working.  Plus there were a lot more  service  places than today with parts available.

While I really like the spirit of postwar, Lionel did have a vast service network for a reason… and no, it was not just because little kids broke the engines.

Jim actually points out the key features above that make a big difference.

Charlie

I believe the quality was there in the post war production.  Even in the trains produced in the last years of the original Lionel Corporation, up to 1969.  I'll go even further and say that the Fundimensions or MPC era did their best to produce a quality product.  

That said, quality can be defined differently in each of those three eras.

 I would venture to say that the highest quality trains were made between 1945 to 1959.  Robust motors, heavy materials, more detail, magne-traction, etc.

In the period starting in 1959, the trains became more toy like.  Cheaper materials started to be used.   Basically the designs were changed to make manufacturing simpler, which in turn made the trains more toylike.  

After the Lionel Corporation went belly up, the new owners continued with the less expensive line of trains.  Perhaps feeling their way in order to see if Lionel trains would even continue to exist.  Fortunately they must have been making a profit and started producing a more desirable line of products as the '70s wore on.  

Toward the end of the '80s, more bells and whistles, so to speak, began to appear in Lionel trains.  I recall some difficulties starting to show up with these more technically advanced trains in the early '90s.  

The products produced today have far more electronics than a post war loco could have ever dreamed possible.  If you've followed some of the topics on these forums, you may have noticed many complaints about some of these high tech trains.  That's not to say the trains are not superb models.  It's just that there's more to go wrong than in a 1950s locomotive.  

The test will be to see where todays trains are 60 or 70 years from now.  

Dan, I couldn't agree with you more.  I'm new to this hobby and have noticed the production quality differences between the PW, MPC and modern era models.  Having said that, I also agree that the more modern engines are jam packed with electronics which inherently causes more issues.  I took apart my PW 602 (out of curiosity) and did the same with my Lionel Legacy SD60e:  there are about 50 more parts in that modern legacy engine and most are electronic in nature (easier to break and wear out etc..). 

Contrary to popular belief, I do believe that the modern engines (Lionel, MTH and Atlas) are manufactured with very high quality standards (thanks to the entrance of MTH into the market).  The motors, gears, wheels and entire drivetrains are made with metal on these modern engines (well most anyway).  I really believe that in 50 years, my SD60e will still be running.  I highly doubt the electronics will work though. 

From the research I've done, it looks like the MPC era was a time of poor production standards.  I understand why Lionel went this route though.  If you think about it, starting in the 60's, HO scale starting gaining huge chunks of market share, kids started focusing on building plastic models of airplanes and rockets.  There was a tremendous amount of pressure on Lionel to cut costs to stay in business.  Then of course we start seeing plastic gears, shells and even motor components. 

Based on what I've been able to tinker with, I'm a huge fan of the PW models.  There's just something about holding those 60 year old locomotives, knowing my ancestors made them here in the US, then throwing them on the track and hearing them roar.  It's pretty dam cool.  I plan on buying one of each of the Lionel PW NW2 switchers eventually and restoring them as they're almost full scale in size and run really well. 

Just my 2 cents. 

Charlie posted:

While I really like the spirit of postwar, Lionel did have a vast service network for a reason… and no, it was not just because little kids broke the engines.

Jim actually points out the key features above that make a big difference.

Charlie

I had a small collection of LIONEL Service Station bulletins and correspondence from the early 1950s - and you could tell, it wasn't always the smoothest operation. The mothership seemed to change forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates frequently. And then scold the service station owners for not following to spec, or charging too much. And remember, these guys were obligated to fix all the other LIONEL toys, record players, and catalog items. It seems like it all fell apart eventually.

I had a small collection of LIONEL Service Station bulletins and correspondence from the early 1950s - and you could tell, it wasn't always the smoothest operation. The mothership seemed to change forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates frequently. And then scold the service station owners for not following to spec, or charging too much. And remember, these guys were obligated to fix all the other LIONEL toys, record players, and catalog items. It seems like it all fell apart eventually.

What does changing forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates have to do with quality?
They didn't get into record players and the like until the 1960's, when they purchased Spear (or was it Porter-Spear?)

IMHO, much of what Lionel made during the period in question (1945- 1959) was high quality and well designed. There were a few clunkers though.
They did a much better job of supporting their product with parts than Lionel is able to do today.

In general, as mentioned, postwar trains are much simpler in terms of design and technology, including the basics, such as the motor, E-unit, axles, wheels, etc.  That was due to the limitations of the manufacturing technology of the time, and the tolerances achievable with the equipment employed.  Today's models are less robust, more vulnerable to electrical/digital electronic failure because they are more complex.  Digital electronics are susceptible to a greater number of failure modes than electro-mechanical devices in some instances.  A voltage spike may fry a board but usually wouldn't do anything to an E-unit.

That said, it's pretty much apples and oranges.  Like trying to compare a car from the 1960s to one from 50 years later.  Carburators with all their limitations and issues are so very different from the much more capable and reliable fuel injection of the current models.  That said, you could repair a car from the 1950s with a few tools. Not so today.

 Nostalgia is nice and comforting, but having living through the 1950s as a child, mechanical and electrical devices (including toys) were much less capable and reliable back in the day.  If they worked, they were quite robust and lasted forever, but the ones that failed we don't have around now . Tolerances were much coarser and AC motors/E-units are more likely to need servicing and maintenance compared with similar items made today. 

C W Burfle posted:

I had a small collection of LIONEL Service Station bulletins and correspondence from the early 1950s - and you could tell, it wasn't always the smoothest operation. The mothership seemed to change forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates frequently. And then scold the service station owners for not following to spec, or charging too much. And remember, these guys were obligated to fix all the other LIONEL toys, record players, and catalog items. It seems like it all fell apart eventually.

What does changing forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates have to do with quality?
They didn't get into record players and the like until the 1960's, when they purchased Spear (or was it Porter-Spear?)

IMHO, much of what Lionel made during the period in question (1945- 1959) was high quality and well designed. There were a few clunkers though.
They did a much better job of supporting their product with parts than Lionel is able to do today.

I was replying to another poster who implicated that need for the service station was an indictment of the quality of the product. I just added a bit of insight about Service Stations that might not be broadly known. I did not mean to imply LIONEL never made anything of quality.

And - I would contend that the extra overhead associated with the warranty repairs/service/parts ate into the company's bottom line - and contributed to the overall decline in quality. Fewer things to break (like nose handgrabs on F3s) and simpler manufacturing meant fewer repairs and warranty claims. I guess I would consider moves like using colored plastic - vs a painted body to reflective of diminishing quality.

Also - around this time LIONEL went into HO - which further complicated things since some shops didn't really want support HO. I think that was over by 1962.

Take a look at the 1962 Catalog - by that time they are FULL BORE into "not trains" toys. "Inventor Series" of toys, Communications Labs, Chemistry Kits, Microscopes, Record Players, Tape Recorders, Selectrix was happening by then...at least half the 1962 Catalog is NOT TRAINS!

They were trying to exploit a the train market with other products...this lead them deeper into the "trains are toys" mentality that ended the company.

I agree with most of what's been said, only I would argue that the Post War Era's long fall from grace began not in 1959, but rather 1954.  I trace it back to the era of swapping out die-cast frames for stamped sheet-metal on the NW-2's and FA-1's. 

Jon

I’m a PW/conventional guy so absolutely love the relative simplicity, durability, and charm of Lionel post war items. However, I will concede that comparisons with modern day stuff can be a bit of apples and oranges. That discussion can lead down all sorts of crowded roads.

What I do know - and thoroughly get a kick out of - is acquiring a loco that might be 60 years old, sticking it on the track, firing up the ZW and watching it run smoothly like it just came out of the box. I did just that a few weeks ago with a PW NW-2 switcher that came out of a garage sale.

A much different experience – apparently – than what we often hear about here with these $1,500 + products.

Page 188 in the Osterhoffs "Fun Factory" book lays it out pretty well...regarding 1961-69

"One lot of 40,000 motors produced defective..."

"Over 90 percent of incoming shipments defective..."

Faster and cheaper didn't work...

And - I would contend that the extra overhead associated with the warranty repairs/service/parts ate into the company's bottom line - and contributed to the overall decline in quality. Fewer things to break (like nose handgrabs on F3s) and simpler manufacturing meant fewer repairs and warranty claims. I guess I would consider moves like using colored plastic - vs a painted body to reflective of diminishing quality.

I have seen / heard very little about how much warrantee work service stations actually had to do. According to the people I've spoken with, the service station network was largely there as a marketing tool. Lionel used it to be able to boast about having a vast network of places to have your trains repaired if they ever need service. Service station owners benefited by drawing people into the store.  Some Customers would bring their train in for a tune-up, and walk out with a few new items.

As for hand grabs and colored plastic: I guess they might have saved a little money on warrantee work. They probably saved more by eliminating the labor/materials  required to mold and apply them in the first place. 

Also - around this time LIONEL went into HO - which further complicated things since some shops didn't really want support HO. I think that was over by 1962.

Take a look at the 1962 Catalog - by that time they are FULL BORE into "not trains" toys. "Inventor Series" of toys, Communications Labs, Chemistry Kits, Microscopes, Record Players, Tape Recorders, Selectrix was happening by then...at least half the 1962 Catalog is NOT TRAINS!

The thread was focused on the 1945-1959 period.

I am familiar with Lionel product of the 1960's. No disagreement on their 1960's stuff.  I find the 1960's to be an interesting period to collect, but I wouldn't buy most of it to run.

I think I can comfortably say that Lionel continuously found ways to make their trains less expensively, which usually meant diminished quality (if you count things like grabs) right from the beginning of the postwar era.
In my opinion, some of the engineering changes that MPC made right from the beginning was an improvement over some 1960's product.

Just a point of clarification regarding Lionel in the MPC era, which did exhibit quality problems. Lionel was a brand, not a company, from 1970 to 1986. Lionel was part of a division (MPC/Fundimensions) of General Mills.

So Lionel didn't have to worry about "going out of business" in the company sense. Instead, the brand had to live up to profit expectations under a publicly traded conglomerate. To boost those profits, cost-cutting measures were routine.

This is  my take on things, if you take a train from the 1950s and a modern train of today and in 100 years you put them both on the track do you think they're both going to run? The modern electronics of today I feel, won't stand up to the simplicity of the 50s. It's the same with cars, or typewriters. In the year 2050, a 1950 Chevy will mostlikley still be able to run fine ( if you can find the parts and sans rust) but a 2005 Chevy with all its electronics will Probley give you more problems 100 years down the road. The quality of the basic car will be close like our trains, but the tech is what's going to give you problems.  Typewriters, in 300 years if you could find a ribbon you know that it's going to type. Now try that with your computer/laptop in 300 years. Lol...Just my take.

Some of these comparisons are just ridiculous.

C W Burfle posted:

The thread was focused on the 1945-1959 period.

You may want to re-read the original post...

"Were the postwar trains by Lionel from 1946 to say 1959 high quality out of the box or was I just lucky ?  I know they went downhill in the sixties."

johnstrains posted:

I’m a PW/conventional guy so absolutely love the relative simplicity, durability, and charm of Lionel post war items. However, I will concede that comparisons with modern day stuff can be a bit of apples and oranges. That discussion can lead down all sorts of crowded roads.

What I do know - and thoroughly get a kick out of - is acquiring a loco that might be 60 years old, sticking it on the track, firing up the ZW and watching it run smoothly like it just came out of the box. I did just that a few weeks ago with a PW NW-2 switcher that came out of a garage sale.

A much different experience – apparently – than what we often hear about here with these $1,500 + products.

I agree with John on the nostalgia of a old postwar running with little or no effort.Have a lot of postwar items and very satisfied with them.

Sorry now to get of the original post and sorry, if you do not like it do not read it.
I partially like prewar as I usually buy stuff that is really worn and repainted badly.
I like to bring them back to life in their full glory and just to think about the child that may of got the trains for Christmas as a present 80 to 100 years ago is worth it to me.
I really do not have any new Lionel engines or train with all of the latest bells or whistles (newest item I have is a k-line 3003 engine (came without tender) and using a Lionel unmarked 1-6655 rail sound tenders with 6 wheel trucks (Made in 1993).
With the newer stuff I see complaints on the forum about different software/hardware versions and problems that the folks encounter (almost like looking at reviews before you buy something).  Problems could be the product or pilot error, who knows.
Unfortunately I can not afford the latest and greatest trains and will not bash them as I do not have any. But when I see them running they look great and sound great and maybe someday.

C W Burfle posted:

In my opinion, some of the engineering changes that MPC made right from the beginning was an improvement over some 1960's product.

That I can totally agree with.

When I first started getting into this - I had the impression that MPC had dumbed down the trains and product line.

Its really not the case.

It was MPC who brought back the dual motor F3, grab irons and sets/products more geared toward adult hobbyists.

But I think MPC only serviced/supported products made under their stewardship...I dont think they supported the old LIONEL products - as far as parts etc.

I am a Postwar only collector.  I love the fact that the trains of that era were built well enough to still be operational, and can be rebuilt/refurbished and restored, by those of us that are not master craftsmen.  While I marvel at the quality of what was a child's toy of that era, I find I have to temper my expectations of some of the accessories, since I sometimes think they are going to work flawlessly or similar to a modern counterpart.

Lionel postwar had many service stations.  The average person could fix them.  They were not hard to work on.  They ran well and were easy to service.    I recently had to rebuild the motors in a postwar Santa Fe F-3 and it was fun and easy to go back to an easy job.  Those trains were well made in America. 

I am a bell and whistle guy and like the modern electronics.  I still have a big respect for what I grew up with and think it is great that some folks still run and maintain the older trains.  I get a few to work on and still enjoy running them.   All I have left from my original trains is my 1954 Southern F-3 set.  It is all rebuilt to the max and I love to put it on the main line and letting her go.

But I think MPC only serviced/supported products made under their stewardship...I dont think they supported the old LIONEL products - as far as parts etc.

I'd agree that MPC itself probably did not service Lionel Corp products. They did continue to sell whatever  Lionel Corp. parts they had on hand. And many MPC parts were interchangeable with Postwar parts. Often the parts were intentionally made with different finishes in order to help folks in the collecting community tell the difference.

During the early 1970's the Lionel factory service department sent surveys out to their service stations to determine whether certain postwar parts should be rerun for the service stations. I have a number of them. They even offered the ST-350 rivet press outfit at least twice. The special notices did not mention the cups, but as I recall, the wheel cups were available from existing stock. One could still order some of the cups and a few of the punches for years after MPC took over.

I was active in the hobby and repairing trains right at the beginning of the MPC era.  

You may want to re-read the original post...

OK, here is a quote from it:

Were the postwar trains by Lionel from 1946 to say 1959 high quality out of the box or was I just lucky ?  I know they went downhill in the sixties.

I like the older post war items from Lionel, especially the post war switches. The old post war switches like the 022's just need some servicing every now & then but don't try a new defect function on you every month or two like the 6-23010.

I have a pre war 224E that still runs very well, just needed a new E unit about 5 years ago. For an engine made almost 80 years ago that is a very good record.

Lee Fritz

Dan Padova posted:

I believe the quality was there in the post war production.  Even in the trains produced in the last years of the original Lionel Corporation, up to 1969.  I'll go even further and say that the Fundimensions or MPC era did their best to produce a quality product.  

That said, quality can be defined differently in each of those three eras.

 I would venture to say that the highest quality trains were made between 1945 to 1959.  Robust motors, heavy materials, more detail, magne-traction, etc.

In the period starting in 1959, the trains became more toy like.  Cheaper materials started to be used.   Basically the designs were changed to make manufacturing simpler, which in turn made the trains more toylike.  

After the Lionel Corporation went belly up, the new owners continued with the less expensive line of trains.  Perhaps feeling their way in order to see if Lionel trains would even continue to exist.  Fortunately they must have been making a profit and started producing a more desirable line of products as the '70s wore on.  

Toward the end of the '80s, more bells and whistles, so to speak, began to appear in Lionel trains.  I recall some difficulties starting to show up with these more technically advanced trains in the early '90s.  

The products produced today have far more electronics than a post war loco could have ever dreamed possible.  If you've followed some of the topics on these forums, you may have noticed many complaints about some of these high tech trains.  That's not to say the trains are not superb models.  It's just that there's more to go wrong than in a 1950s locomotive.  

The test will be to see where todays trains are 60 or 70 years from now.  

  

Dan I agree, while the post war era had a few duds, mostly all were high quality, eg the 64 series boxcars.  The MPC era was a disappointment, but I was mostly out of trains other than Christmas   using post-war items.  In the early 90's I started getting back into trains and remember testing out a new Lionel T-1 at the hobby shop that got my testosterone going.  Unfortunately, she was all show and no go if you get my drift (great looks & size but not dependable performance).  Then I started to see MTH PS-1 and was hooked again.  My 2 PS-1 engines are in my son's hands now, but being in the software & electronics industry, I knew the future was bright.  Today I can run conventional, TMCC and DCS whenever I choose on the same layout.  I haven't taken the Legacy plunge, but will get into the aps & adapters to get into using my iPhone to control trains soon.  We still are in great times for trains and have to be happy about the future and not pessimistic.

C W Burfle posted:

You may want to re-read the original post...

OK, here is a quote from it:

Were the postwar trains by Lionel from 1946 to say 1959 high quality out of the box or was I just lucky ?  I know they went downhill in the sixties.

 

Exactly - And premise of the thread is "Lionel had good quality from 1946-59 - and went downhill in the 1960s" - DISCUSS! - not sure why you think anything I've said is out of bounds - or limited to 46-59?

C W Burfle posted:

But I think MPC only serviced/supported products made under their stewardship...I dont think they supported the old LIONEL products - as far as parts etc.

I'd agree that MPC itself probably did not service Lionel Corp products. They did continue to sell whatever  Lionel Corp. parts they had on hand. And many MPC parts were interchangeable with Postwar parts. Often the parts were intentionally made with different finishes in order to help folks in the collecting community tell the difference.

I was active in the hobby and repairing trains right at the beginning of the MPC era. 

My uncle was also a LIONEL Repairman through the MPC-era for the Hobby House in Cleveland. (and perhaps others). I think the situation you describe is part of what drove him to start sourcing his own screw stock. The old parts/screw stock dried up, and he didn't like what he was getting from MPC. I remember, he was always particular about the blackening/plating process and other seemingly small details. The time frame fits - I know he started getting into the screw business in the mid-1970s. He had a pretty big catalog by the time he passed. Len Capperelli owns the screw business now - but still uses my uncles name (Nyerges Bolt and Screw).

Appreciate your insights C.W.

I really appreciated what your uncle Ted did for the train community. I was a regular customer and keep quite an assortment of his screws on hand. Not only did he supply all sorts of esoteric screws, his prices were great too. I've made a few orders from Len Capperelli since he took over the business.

Postwar was good.  When I got back in the hobby after the Navy, MPC was showing up.  MPC was not quality like PW Lionel.   

I think today's trains are very different than PW trains. When I got my first set I played with it in a way I would never play with say a big boy or challenger. They wouldn't last ten minutes with me as a kid.

PW trains were built for kids, they had to be some what tough. I wonder how many survived compared to how many were built. 

  Trains built today are not meant for kids. They are not meant to carry your imaginary soldiers to battle or become a roller coaster.

  I don't know if it was quality or just built to survive many adventures. I think that's why we lose kids from the hobby. My nephew could care less about cruise control, he wants control to drive a train like an engineer. He doesn't want to see them just travel in an endless loop.

  When I take out my PW military trains and let him do as he wants then it's fun for him. My old Alco has been through so much and still runs because that what it was built for. 

Bob

Over the many years I have been a member of this forum this topic always manages to resurface from time to time and I am never able to ignore it.   The fact is its just an interesting topic with so many variables that its loaded with subjectivity and that always ensures for animated discussions and disagreements. 

Anyway, I have to admit that 80% to 90% of the motive power I own is from the pre-war and post-war eras and I absolutely love the stuff.  Almost across the board the Lionel engines manufactured during those eras were of exceptional quality.  In regards to the 1945 to 1969 era the same holds true with the exception of the scout type engines which possessed poorly designed motors but it must be remembered the inexpensive  scout engines were offered in order to compete against cheaper Marx items.  That being said, I have noted several individuals on this forum post about the unceasing reliability of their scout engines.   Yes, it is true that the Lionel engines of the post-war era were much simpler in design and can't compare with the technological wonders that ride the model train tracks of today, at least as far as sounds and cosmetics are concerned.  However, in terms of overall rugged durability and reliability I have to give the nod to the 1945 to 1969 engines.  The very fact that there are thousands of these engines still running as smooth as silk today as they were 70 years ago is a testament to the quality of their production.  Add the fact that they are easily repairable and that there is easy access to post-war parts make them in my humble opinion must have items if one is interested in model trains.  I ain't no mechanical genius but I have been able to maintain and on those rare occasions when it has been necessary to repair on my own every post-war engine I own.  

   There have been some comments made about modern MPC era equipment not measuring up to post-war standards and in some cases that is certainly true but again a lot of that stuff was low end motive power and rolling stock which was rather inexpensive like the post-war scout engines.  MPC's Famous American Railroads series as well as their Fallen Flag series in my opinion were quality made items which compare favorably to their post-war ancestors.  Most of MPCs higher end production items were built to last and I have several which run as well today as when I purchased them over 40 years ago.  Therefore, in my opinion they pass the reliability and dependability tests. 

The remaining 10% to 20% of my inventory falls within the TMCC, Legacy and DCS categories.  As I have stated these are truly high tech items which are magnificent looking scale size engines which possess an incredible array of realistic Steam locomotive and Diesel engine sounds.  Throw in the cab chatter, crew talk, tower communications and miscellaneous station sounds and you have an almost unbeatable combination.  Unfortunately, as has been stated with all of these bells and whistles they are highly prone to breakdowns and unless you are experienced in working with, handling and replacing computer boards you won't be repairing them yourself and this fact adds an additional cost factor to an already expensive engine sometimes totaling over $1500 to $2000.  When an engine like that breaks down it is rather difficult to be objective.      

I must add one other factor here and that is in reference to the durability of the modern die cast engines manufactured in China.  I am well aware that previous to WW II many engines suffered from zinc pest and other alloy related maladies but during the post-war era that problem was virtually non-existent.  I do not possess nor am I aware of any post-war motive power that has this problem.  It doesn't mean it doesn't exist its just that I am not aware of it.  Unfortunately, there is more than ample proof that the metal alloys used in train production coming out of China are substandard.  If you doubt this just read all of the posts on this forum concerning this problem.  Personally, I have had a couple of engines, both Lionels, where the engine's metal trucks snapped right in two while I was attempting to replace some traction tires.  Over the last fifty years I have worked on a lot of engines but never had a truck snap in half while I was handling it manually.  I have had post-war die cast metal engines fall three feet on to a concrete floor with virtually no physical damage other than paint loss but I shudder to think about what would happen to an engine whose truck broke in half during routine maintenance when it hits a concrete floor.  I have had some other problems but I am not going to belabor the point.  Don't get me wrong, I love operating modern era engines but there is no question in my mind that they are not as reliable nor as dependable as post-war engines.

Not just engines. All my PW 022 switches from the early 50s are bulletproof reliable, a couple had to be cleaned or have the notorious solder joint re-soldered after storage but that's about it.  Not bad for a 65 y/o+ toy.

I to am "old school".  Run/collect only PW engines/rolling stock.  Newest engine is a  GP9 2349 NP. circa '59. Runs like new.  Hard to beat the 6400 series boxcars before '59.  Metal tankers.  Piggyback fruehauf and car haulers.  The F3's/FM's/682/665/2046/GG1/geeps. With proper service are nearly bullet proof.   Might change brushes/rollers/bulbs once in awhile but thats it.  EZ to work on like your old '57 chevy 327.  Friend of mine son runs all this new stuff and is always having problems.  He spends more time running to the P.O.  sending stuff back than he does running them.  Everyone has their preference and thats cool.  Whatever works for them.  At this point in time the less aggravation the better.  JMHO

bob

Give me American made any day.   I run and fix all modern trains and on more than one occasion have things from China that I swear were done wrong on purpose.

I commend all post war operators who are keeping the trains running.

Marty, not sure if this applies with the Chinese or not but in some of the Arab languages they read from right to left instead of how we read left to right. They might also be following instructions that are not translated properly, so the blame could be on the US company and not China. I read some German along with English and know that you can not always get a 100% clear translation all the time.

Lee Fritz

Have many postwar steamers a few diesel's and GG1's. My early 1947 baldwin wheeled 2025 and 675 run super smooth .

Used to have the later 2025's the ones fro m 1951-52 i believe these did not have the baldwin wheels the motor looked the same and for the life of me could not figure out why they were not the smooth runners that the ones from the late 40s were.

Until i read a few articles that did mention them in stating that the machine tolerances somehow changed.

Its been said the mid 40s and up to the very early 50s were Lionel's ZENITH years .

Yes comparing postwar to todays electronics is like comparing apples to oranges.

I always said i would never buy an engine with a can motor because on most except  i cannot open them to change brushes etc. The early williams large pittmans motors i have changed out the brushes/springs.

Broke down in 2002 bought my first MTH diesel and DCS setup and will say they it runs excellent has the old 5 volt board that i put a ton of hours and miles on it , a few years back i bought new motors for it from mth just in case but this engine keeps runnning and running and when i do run it its usually an hour straight session. Since then i have bought a few more Diesels from 2009 and 2011 and now they all have BCR's.

My fear though is if and when something on the board goes out as i will not be able to fix it and it will not be a cheap fix for my income. But i do enjoy the bells and whistles these new electronics have just not the complications that may come with it unlike postwar that i can fix myself at low costs.

I do enjoy prewar and early postwar and some modern electronics.

To the original poster my personal opinion is i think many not all were high quality and those 671's you have are good ones as i can attest to them as well i have several and some that were the early ones with the double worm drive.

I have 8 PW engines and now 9 of the electronic type.  I love both.  What I say to guests is that the new trains are simply a whole new ballgame and my father could never have imagined what has been added to the collection.  Even though I love my PW stuff, there is simply no comparison.  The detail and function in the premium trains is extraordinary.  Simply gorgeous and of great wonderment to newbies.

Having added my two cents, I am hopeful that, regarding the fragility of the electronics, Einstein was thinking of our modern trains when he said, "Well, no one expects much of a human infant."  As someone on this forum pointed out months ago, we carry around portable computers (he meant iphones) that get dropped, dunked, smashed daily, and they still work.  One would think (and certainly hope) that toy train manufacturers could figure something out in this regard.

Jerry

Lee, the people MTH and Lionel have people at those factories that get paid to see things done right.  You and I both know things do happen.   The problem we as buyers have is the fact we have no say on things.  I seem to get by with problems and fix them.  Not everyone has that available to them.

The OWich one?

Inclined to say, as someone who has NOT grown up in the postwar era, that the trains are probably similar to the British roadsters of the 1960's and 1970's in that time has weeded out most of the bad examples, as they have been cannibalized for parts or fallen to the wayside. So the survivors that were better assembled (and oftentimes restored or refurbished) tend to be better than the average when new.

C W Burfle posted:

I really appreciated what your uncle Ted did for the train community. I was a regular customer and keep quite an assortment of his screws on hand. Not only did he supply all sorts of esoteric screws, his prices were great too. I've made a few orders from Len Capperelli since he took over the business.

Roving Sign and C W Burfle, that's Len Carparelli.

Ya gotta love postwar.

I had an enthusiastic kid send my 2046 engine flying off the train table at great speed, crashing down onto the floor. Just picked it up, put it back on the tracks, ran like nothing happened.

The resulting small bend in the cab roof corner just gives the engine character.